Holy Mackerel! Sabres Win Dahlin Lottery!

[dudacek]

Yessir.

Oh, me too.

It’s crazy how quickly the league is forgetting Haseks dominance.

I blame Canada media bias.

(I also blame them for the misuse of generational - largely because of Auston Matthews and their pathetic need to use him in the same sentences as McDavid.)

[Derrico]

Oh, me too.

It’s crazy how quickly the league is forgetting Haseks dominance.

I blame Canada media bias.

(I also blame them for the misuse of generational - largely because of Auston Matthews and their pathetic need to use him in the same sentences as McDavid.)

This.  Matthews is a good player, no doubt.  But he does not belong in the same sentence as McDavid.  Not even close.  This goes the same for Eichel but because he doesn't play for the leafs you never read that anyway.

[Georgia Blizzard]

So the levels are

 

Generational

Franchise

 

Top Pair / 1st Line

Second Pair / 2nd line

 

Any others ?

With Generational and Franchise translating to HoF

[Taro T]

IMHO, the generational NHL players of my lifetime have been: Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, & McDavid.

 

A case could be made for Crosby, but he's not QUITE there IMHO.

 

Howe is a tough add, but his role on some incredibly strong Wings squads before my time & his ability to play useful minutes at such an extended age puts him in.

 

20 yo Eichel could still be a true franchise player. That seems to be a pretty good hope for Dahlin; if he exceeds that, cool. But if he grows into close to the player ge could be, regardless of whether he is a true #1, AS, franchise, or generational he could very realistically play the best D for an extended period of time that we have ever seen in B&G. We have seen true HoF quality play at every position but D. That we MAY finally see it is pretty exciting. (Sorry Housley fans, if he were born anywhere other than the USA, he would not be in the HoF. He's in because Joey Mullen is in.)

[Neo]

There is evidence, in the SHL. He played 41 games and was a top defender in probably the 2nd best defensive league in the world. The KHL doesn't strike me as a defense first place. If you are saying there is no evidence that he will be any good as a Sabre then that seems like an odd standard to hold a draft prospect too. 3 years ago I could have applied that standard to McDavid. I could apply that standard to Jack Hughes next year. I could apply that standard to Casey Mittelstadt. It doesn't make sense when using the context of what Dahlin did as a 17 year old prospect. It is if you refuse to extrapolate out even though in the last 10 years the league has gotten consistently better at doing that at the top of the draft. 

 

If I take a more natural reading of your sentences back to back then you are implying that being good in the SHL does not provide evidence of being good in the NHL. This would be a flawed premise. If Rasmus Dahlin was 27 instead of 17 you might have a point. The player's development curve would have peaked. However when examining young players you have to put things in context such as age and league. We have other players who played year 17 or 18 in the SHL and then came to the NHL. When you compare these players you notice that Dahlin was producing more and playing better at a younger age then basically anyone in the modern era to come from that league. You seem to want to indicate that making this comparison is foolish. You preference your first 2 sentences by suggesting you want to be patient and cautious for once because there is "no evidence yet".  There is evidence, scouting reviews that evidence and makes a determination. The determination based on Dahlin's play and that of other comparable players is that he is amazing. 

 

These 3 sentences seem at odds to me. They do because they lack any context. Age, production, league difficulty are all ignored because "no evidence yet as to how he'll be" in the NHL. I am finishing your sentence because that is what you are saying. I think these sentences are at odds because you want to disregard all the prior evidence, his WJC, his SHL year, and his youth, to imply that because he hasn't played a minute in the NHL we can not predict if he will be any good. Because I reject that premise I cannot agree with you and will continue to evaluate him using my own standard. As a fan that is not only my right but my joy, to believe he what I see on tape. An outstanding defender with a rare set of talents.

 

NO snip for brevity!

 

Without joining the conversation around PA’s stance, I have to say that this is a wonderfully constructed post! I will add logos to the oft demonstrated ethos and pathos in your persuasion tool bag. I nominate this entry for the Aristotelian Rhetoric award for May, 2018.

[TrueBlueGED]

Crosby is 6th all time in points per game. Playing in this era. If he's not generational, I don't know what the term even means.

So the levels are

 

Generational

Franchise

 

Top Pair / 1st Line

Second Pair / 2nd line

 

Any others ?

With Generational and Franchise translating to HoF

 

I would put "elite" a notch below "franchise" but clearly above top pair / 1st line.

[darksabre]

Crosby is the best player I've ever actually watched. Period. 

[That Aud Smell]

Crosby is the best player I've ever actually watched. Period.

If he’s not generational, then the standards are a smidge too exacting.

[PASabreFan]

Actually, you have zero information about this.  You (and all of us) have a ton of speculation, but zero knowledge as to any action whatsoever that they've taken, other than retaining Darcy, firing GMTM and DDB and hiring JBott. 

 

OTOH, there is video showing Dahlin's abilities, as well as the informed opinions of literally dozens of knowledgeable hockey observers who have witnessed him in person, both on and off the ice, all of which is highly probative as to how Dahlin will do in the NHL.

 

While I agree that the logical move is not to assume that Dahlin will be an NHL star, it's a bit silly to draw a line in the sand and insist that there is no reason to think that he will be.

The bolded is, to coin a phrase, nonsense. At his Suffering Presser, Darcy said it was Terry who made the decision about rebuilding. I actually hadn't remembered him saying that until Vogl's excellent breakdown of the presser on its recent fifth anniversary. All I had in my arsenal was that Darcy had said on the radio sometime before the presser that Terry would decide the "extent of the rebuild." So, right off the top, we have a pretty good source that shows that the owner launched the so-called tank. The extent of the rebuild was: fracking deep. There's so much more. Terry called into WGR once and said the spending spree of summer 2011 was "my decision." Your penance is to re-read the Trial Thread.

 

Housley was a damn good O minded Dman, but I'm not so sure he's getting much from our D, I don't wanna waste the development of Dahlin with a rookie coach, one who played turnover machine Bowl you over other options, that is the one thing that is tempering my excitement a bit.

 

 

This isn't the most appropriate thread, but would gallant have gotten better results out of this team? Not that we'll be able to ever know

Excellent. You're touching on something I've actually been afraid to bring up, because I get jumped on when I say ANYTHING, and this one is a doozy. Towit: don't we have to project Dahlin's future in the context of where he's ending up? Namely, arguably the most dysfunctional franchise in the NHL, maybe in all of sports. Housley is unproven, and so is Botterill. How will they handle him? Will Dahlin be happy in Buffalo? People in Sweden apparently think the city is one that God forgot. And, heavens, just look at this thread and think of the pressure and expectations the fan base are putting on him, and he's not even on the team yet.

:blink:

 

Also: With Pronman's nerdy words of caution in mind, I am OH-ficially off the "generational" hype train. I'll instead accept the projection of a clear #1 d-man on a Cup-contending team.

 

And I'm asking: How many d-men like that have the Sabres had in their history? Damn few, if any.

No evidence of what he'll be as a Sabre. I think you all know what I meant.

Edited May 22, 2018 by PASabreFan

[LGR4GM]

So you can use past information to make future inferences about the organisation but I can't use past play/information in the SHL to make future inferences about Dahlin?

 

You have no evidence of Botterill being a bad gm or mishandling players but you seem to suggest it is a possibility. This is based solely on passed team management issues. So if you can suggest that, then in essence you validate my suggestion that Dahlin is going to be real good in the NHL because he was in the SHL.

 

I do want to be clear that I don't have a problem with what you just posted PA. The development of Dahlin will be key and is a concern.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Skurk Liger

[dudacek]

The hype for Dahlin has been nowhere near the hype for Eichel, partly because of all the people afraid of hype, partly because no one expected to win Dahlin, whereas Eichel was marketed as a prize.

[Thorny]

Eichel has been anything but generational, he's been hurt a bit, but he's not a game changer

Here's hoping Dahlin is

I certainly see Eichel as a game-changer. But I see game-changer as a synonym for star/elite talent/first-line player. Maybe it’s something different for you.

 

Is Crosby generational? He just hasn’t elevated himself over his peers as much as Orr and Gretzky.

Two Art Ross trophies, two Harts, two Smythes, four 1st-team all-star selections.

Jagr had 5, 1, 0 and 7.

Mario had 6 Art Ross, three Hart’s, 2 Smythes, five first-team all-stars - pretty comparable, I guess.

But Mario was competing against Wayne.

Crosby will find himself within the top-10 players of all-time if he isn’t there already. He’s generational. And his catalogue of signature moments will help assure he’s remembered as such.

 

IMHO, the generational NHL players of my lifetime have been: Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, & McDavid.

A case could be made for Crosby, but he's not QUITE there IMHO.

Howe is a tough add, but his role on some incredibly strong Wings squads before my time & his ability to play useful minutes at such an extended age puts him in.

20 yo Eichel could still be a true franchise player. That seems to be a pretty good hope for Dahlin; if he exceeds that, cool. But if he grows into close to the player ge could be, regardless of whether he is a true #1, AS, franchise, or generational he could very realistically play the best D for an extended period of time that we have ever seen in B&G. We have seen true HoF quality play at every position but D. That we MAY finally see it is pretty exciting. (Sorry Housley fans, if he were born anywhere other than the USA, he would not be in the HoF. He's in because Joey Mullen is in.)

McDavid has a ways to go before he catches Sid.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Thorny

[That Aud Smell]

No evidence of what he'll be as a Sabre. I think you all know what I meant.

Nah, brah. I literally don’t follow your line of thinking there. Best I can tell, there isn’t a defensible one to follow.

 

Also: What was with the Swedes thinking Buffalo is a city God forgot?

[Marions Piazza]

Nah, brah. I literally don’t follow your line of thinking there. Best I can tell, there isn’t a defensible one to follow.

 

Also: What was with the Swedes thinking Buffalo is a city God forgot?

there was a thread about it, but, a Swedish sports writer talked about Dahlin and likely going to Buffalo.  He referenced four SB losses, 2 Stanley Cup losses, said all the things about Buffalo that everyone who has never been there before says.  Poor, small, dirty, blah blah blah   and he said "Buffalo is the city that God forgot"

Edited May 23, 2018 by Marions Piazza

[That Aud Smell]

Yeesh.

 

Well, one thing I’ll say: People who get here almost invariably find it’s not the place it’s often reputed to be. Hockey players as a group tend to love it here.

[Wyldnwoody44]

I certainly see Eichel as a game-changer. But I see game-changer as a synonym for star/elite talent/first-line player. Maybe it’s something different for you.

Eichel has the ability to be a game changer, but I think there are a handful of guys in the league with that ability. The problem is, consistency is a huge issue when I watch the team, but especially with Jack. One game he's great, the next he dissappears, and not just on the score sheet, but just in general on the ice. Maybe with the addition of Dahlin and the team getting better that will diminish some, but he's got a ways to go to earn that huge paycheck he's about to get.

[nfreeman]

The bolded is, to coin a phrase, nonsense. At his Suffering Presser, Darcy said it was Terry who made the decision about rebuilding. I actually hadn't remembered him saying that until Vogl's excellent breakdown of the presser on its recent fifth anniversary. All I had in my arsenal was that Darcy had said on the radio sometime before the presser that Terry would decide the "extent of the rebuild." So, right off the top, we have a pretty good source that shows that the owner launched the so-called tank. The extent of the rebuild was: fracking deep. There's so much more. Terry called into WGR once and said the spending spree of summer 2011 was "my decision." Your penance is to re-read the Trial Thread.

 

 

That's not what Darcy said.  He said that TP has been very clear that the Cup is the goal, not just making the playoffs.

 

Here is the link:  http://buffalonews.com/2018/04/28/inside-the-sabres-day-of-suffering-lingers-five-years-later/

 

It's impossible to have a conversation if one side is so obsessed with sticking to a narrative that it bends the facts.

[PASabreFan]

That's not what Darcy said.  He said that TP has been very clear that the Cup is the goal, not just making the playoffs.

 

Here is the link:  http://buffalonews.com/2018/04/28/inside-the-sabres-day-of-suffering-lingers-five-years-later/

 

It's impossible to have a conversation if one side is so obsessed with sticking to a narrative that it bends the facts.

Your correction is fair. It wasn't the direct quote that I recalled. But I think you're bending the facts if you think the decision Terry made was merely to try and win a Cup instead of just trying to make the playoffs (the Sabres have nailed part two of that master plan). Darcy said the owner would decide the extent of the rebuild. The presser is full of hints. "Terry wants to try many things." "Terry has been consistent." "What Terry is asking us to do..." If the decision was all Darcy, someone's going to have to explain why he got fired later that same year.

[dudacek]

Darcy has essentially disappeared from the public eye since he was fired here.

If he did any interviews with the Coyotes, I missed them.

 

Wouldn't you love to read a no-holds-barred personal account of his Sabres tenure?

[darksabre]

Darcy has essentially disappeared from the public eye since he was fired here.

If he did any interviews with the Coyotes, I missed them.

 

Wouldn't you love to read a no-holds-barred personal account of his Sabres tenure?

Didn't he resign in protest from the Coyotes after the whole John Scott thing? 

[nfreeman]

I have no doubt that TP signed off on the tank, as this would be required by pretty much any owner of any pro sports team.  But that is a far cry from TP ordering a certain course of action.  This of course goes back to my original point, which is that no one here has any idea how much or how little TP has been involved in the various decisions that have been made since he's been on the scene -- and thus our information in that regard is far scantier than our information on Dahlin's likelihood of success in the NHL.

[Wyldnwoody44]

It is funny to step back and look and see all the time excitement from winning the lottery, and shortly after seeing arguments about how he compares to grigerenko. Shaking my damn head

[shrader]

IMHO, the generational NHL players of my lifetime have been: Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Hasek, & McDavid.

 

A case could be made for Crosby, but he's not QUITE there IMHO.

 

Howe is a tough add, but his role on some incredibly strong Wings squads before my time & his ability to play useful minutes at such an extended age puts him in.

 

20 yo Eichel could still be a true franchise player. That seems to be a pretty good hope for Dahlin; if he exceeds that, cool. But if he grows into close to the player ge could be, regardless of whether he is a true #1, AS, franchise, or generational he could very realistically play the best D for an extended period of time that we have ever seen in B&G. We have seen true HoF quality play at every position but D. That we MAY finally see it is pretty exciting. (Sorry Housley fans, if he were born anywhere other than the USA, he would not be in the HoF. He's in because Joey Mullen is in.)

 

And of all those guys, up until now, the only one I've ever heard given the "generational" label is McDavid.  I don't remember ever seeing that word thrown around until the lead up to the McDavid draft.  It seems to be an invention of the last 5 years or so.  It was never said about any of the players you mentioned while they were on the ice and it was never used in the lead up for draft picks like Lindros or Crosby (I'm sure I'm missing one or two insanely hyped #1 picks in between those 2).

Edited May 23, 2018 by shrader

[pi2000]

And of all those guys, up until now, the only one I've ever heard given the "generational" label is McDavid. I don't remember ever seeing that word thrown around until the lead up to the McDavid draft. It seems to be an invention of the last 5 years or so. It was never said about any of the players you mentioned while they were on the ice and it was never used in the lead up for draft picks like Lindros or Crosby (I'm sure I'm missing one or two insanely hyped #1 picks in between those 2).

Depends on your definition of "generational". What's a generation? Generation is defined as all the people born and living at about the same time.

 

That said, "generational" refers to the amount of time between birth of parents and the birth of their offspring. The average age of first time Mom's in the US is 25 years old. So "generational" means roughly once every 25 years.

 

So are any of these guys truly a once every 25 years talent? Gretzky is the only guy that fits that definition. Now, if McDavid is head and shoulders above anobody that comes along for the next 25 years, then yes, put that label on him.

 

Dahlin tho? hmm

[Brawndo]

It is funny to step back and look and see all the time excitement from winning the lottery, and shortly after seeing arguments about how he compares to grigerenko. Shaking my damn head

There is way too many time between the draft lottery and the draft