Holy Mackerel! Sabres Win Dahlin Lottery!

[Wyldnwoody44]

There is way too many time between the draft lottery and the draft

This is the part where I tell you that if the draft lottery was held any other time, that the molecules wouldn't have lined up for the ball to come up at the precise time and we woulda lost ;)

[PASabreFan]

Darcy has essentially disappeared from the public eye since he was fired here.

If he did any interviews with the Coyotes, I missed them.

 

Wouldn't you love to read a no-holds-barred personal account of his Sabres tenure?

He's barred so many holds, if they ever started to get out, he couldn't hold them back. I'm guessing there's some NDA that prevents him from talking.

I have no doubt that TP signed off on the tank, as this would be required by pretty much any owner of any pro sports team.  But that is a far cry from TP ordering a certain course of action.  This of course goes back to my original point, which is that no one here has any idea how much or how little TP has been involved in the various decisions that have been made since he's been on the scene -- and thus our information in that regard is far scantier than our information on Dahlin's likelihood of success in the NHL.

If we believe Darcy, Terry didn't just sign off on the tank, he determined what kind of tank it would be. It's not that important to my point — that we know a lot about how he has run the team. Just the fact that Terry decided on a certain direction (forget icing a one-off playoff team that might catch fire in the postseason, we're going to seek top-end talent and try to be a perennial powerhouse) is something. A lot, actually. He didn't leave that decision to his hockey people. And, really, what was Darcy supposed to do with that edict other than sell, go to (or near) the bottom and get high draft picks. As Darcy pointed out in that infamous presser, free agency was no longer a viable way of building a contender quickly.

We also know, because Terry told us in one of his rare public appearances to talk about the Sabres, that he didn't get overly involved in the Murray hiring.

[Neo]

“Generational” is a term that certainly has been misappropriated.

In my half-century, I’ve seen three: Orr Gretzky and Lemieux.

I would add Hasek, but since most of the hockey world seems to disagree, I can’t.

I suspect McDavid will prove to be.

Increasingly, people are applying “generational” to what I would call “franchise” players: Perreault, Lafontaine, Forsberg, Yzerman, Ovechkin...

That is what most expected Eichel to be. It’s about time he started meeting that expectation.

Boy, this, word for word ... we are of the same vintage ... EXCEPT I am adding Hasek, the rest of the hockey world be damned.

 

 

Regarding Crosby and “generational”, I have the following thoughts. If he’s not, I can’t tell you why. True’s PPG stat opened my eyes. He’s captained Cup teams. However, I’m not sure he’s even the greatest player of his generation, let alone all time generational. Ovechkin hasn’t been mentioned other than in your post (unless I missed it). If Crosby is generational, isn’t Ovechkin? Do Cups put Crosby over the top?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Neo

[PerreaultForever]

Crosby is the best player I've ever actually watched. Period. 

Orr. Lots of great ones, but he revolutionalized the game. 

[Randall Flagg]

Crosby and Ovechkin relative to generational status is an interesting discussion to have. 

 

Crosby/Ovechkin

2005-06: 81 games, 39G, 102 PTS: All Star(3), Calder (2), Hart (24) / 81 games, 52G, 106 PTS: All Star(1), Calder (1), Hart (6). Edge: Ovechkin, but not by too much.

 

2006-07: 79 games, 36G, 120 PTS: All Star(1), Byng(29), Hart(1), Pearson(1), Art Ross(1) / 82 games, 46G, 92 PTS: All Star (1), Hart (22). Edge: Clearly Crosby

 

2007-08: 53 games, 24G, 72 PTS: All Star(5), Lady Byng (34), Hart(17) / 82 games, 65G, 112PTS: All Star(1), Byng(9), Hart(1), Art Ross(1), Pearson(1), Richard(1), Selke(30). Edge: Clearly Ovechkin, as he'd have the scoring edge even if Sid kept that pace up. First time injuries affected the discussion for Sid, but I'm comfortable giving Ovie this regardless because it may have been the single-most amazing season I've seen from a hockey player.

 

2008-09: 77 games, 33G, 103PTS: All Sar(3), Byng(35), Hart(6) / 79 games, 56G, 110PTS: All Star(1), Hart(1), Pearson(1), Richard(1), Selke(50). Edge: Ovechkin again. However, Crosby gets the playoff edge and Stanley Cup. 

 

2009-10: 81 games, 51G, 109PTS: All Star(2), Byng(54), Hart(3), Richard (1), Selke (30) / 72 games, 50G, 109PTS: All Star(1), Hart(2), Pearson (1), Selke(28). Edge: push. Same number of points, Crosby edges by one more goal, Ovie finishes one spot higher in league MVP voting and wins Pearson (chosen by players).

 

2010-11: 41 games, 32G, 66 PTS: All Star(5), Hart(20) / 79 games, 32G, 85 PTS: All Star(2), Hart(14). This season is a true shame, as Crosby was pacing for 132 points and 64 goals, which would have been the best season a hockey player had had since Lemieux or Gretzky were in their primes, by a large amount. I'm giving him the edge as injuries (was this the year Myers killed him?) were the only thing stopping him from an all-time great season, and Ovie regressed.

 

2011-12: 22 games, 8G, 37 PTS: Byng(28) / 78 games, 38G, 65 PTS: All Star(10). I give no one the edge this season. In a small sample size Crosby paced for 137(!!) points, but 22 games is just not enough, it is a shame we lost this part of that man's career. Ovie was very disappointing relative to the rest of his career. 

 

2012-13: 36 games, 15G, 56 PTS: All Star(1), Pearson(1), Hart(2), Selke(15), Byng(33) / 48 games, 32G, 56 PTS: All Star(1), Hart(1), Richard(1). This one is tough. Sid had the same number of points in 12 fewer games and was voted MVP by the NHLPA. Ovie won the rocket and League MVP. I'll give the edge to Sid. 

 

2013-14: 80 games, 36G, 104PTS: All Star(1), Hart(1), Pearson(1), Art Ross(1), Selke(18) / 78 Games, 51G, 79PTS: All Star(2), Hart(23), Richard(1). Crosby wins this one clean, Ovie becomes less of a game-changer and more of a specialist (but still a damn good player). Crosby is the best player in the world.

 

2014-15: 77 games, 28G, 84PTS: All Star(2), Hart(5), Selke(19) / 81 games, 53G, 81PTS: All Star(1), Hart(2), Richard(1). Edge: I think Ovie gets this one. He had 10 more goals than the next highest guy, almost 20% more than number 2. Sid was great, and just missed the Art Ross after a big final day from Jamie Benn and the Sabres not rolling over, only losing 2-0 after clinching Eichel. (heh). 

 

2015-16: 80 games, 36G, 85 PTS: All Star(1), Byng(35), Hart(2), Selke(7), Smythe(1) / 79 games, 50G, 71 PTS: All Star(2), Hart(6), Richard(1). Crosby gets it easy. Ovie still scoring like a beast, but Sid has a ton of goals and more than twice as many assists, and of course that playoff run.

 

2016-17: 75 games, 44G, 89 PTS: All Star(2), Byng(16), Hart(2), Richard(1), Selke(10), Smythe(1) / 82 games, 33G, 69PTS: All Star(3), Hart(12). Again, clearly Crosby.

 

2017-18: 82 games, 29G, 89PTS / 82 games, 49G, 87PTS: Richard(1), maybe Smythe coming? Ovie gets the edge in this one.

 

Hart trophy finishes: Crosby: 24, 1, 17, 6, 3, 20, - , 2, 1, 5, 2, 2. 2 Harts, 3 2nd place finishes, a 3, a 5, and then some injuries and a rookie year. more consistent for longer.

Hart trophy finishes: Ovie    : 6, 22, 1, 1, 2, 14, - , 1, 23, 2, 6, 12. 3 Harts, 2 other top 2 finishes, but then ranging from 6-23-unranked.

 

Ovie: SEVEN Richards

Crosby: 2 Richards

 

Ovie: 3 Pearsons, for NHLPA-chosen MVP

Crosby: 3 Pearsons

 

Ovie: 1 Art Ross

Crosby: 2 Art Rosses, but more seasons with best scoring rate and injuries, and more seasons really close to best scorer than Ovie. more consistently up there, rather.

 

So, looking at regular seasons, 3 of the first 4 go to Ovie, but Crosby wins a bunch after that. And what hockey reference doesn't show me is that Crosby had more near-first art ross finishes than Ovechkin. And then when you add in playoff experience and performance, though Ovie is no slouch( 57G, 111 PTS in 115 games) Crosby has had far more team success and better stats: (66G, 185 PTS in 160 games). If Ovie can grab a cup and a Smythe he will surely add the cherry on top of his incredible career, but I think it's safe to say that Crosby has been a better and more consistent player during their careers. He's been very durable outside of that 3 year stretch in the middle. 

 

Given the way Ovie plays, there was never a chance he could sustain that level of production and epic hair-on-fire hockey. But he's been remarkable all the same. 

I think if Sid had been healthy he would have been widely considered the 3rd best forward to ever play the game. I think he's generational, and even though his trophy case doesn't quite match Mario's and Wayne's, I think the parity and skill of the league and of goaltenders play a role in that and should be accounted for in discussions like this. 

If Ovie had been able to maintain that first 4 seasons of play for 10...

[Wyldnwoody44]

Randall, your posts give me vertigo ????????????

[Randall Flagg]

Randall, your posts give me vertigo

Me too.

[nfreeman]

 

If we believe Darcy, Terry didn't just sign off on the tank, he determined what kind of tank it would be. It's not that important to my point — that we know a lot about how he has run the team. Just the fact that Terry decided on a certain direction (forget icing a one-off playoff team that might catch fire in the postseason, we're going to seek top-end talent and try to be a perennial powerhouse) is something. A lot, actually. He didn't leave that decision to his hockey people. And, really, what was Darcy supposed to do with that edict other than sell, go to (or near) the bottom and get high draft picks. As Darcy pointed out in that infamous presser, free agency was no longer a viable way of building a contender quickly.

We also know, because Terry told us in one of his rare public appearances to talk about the Sabres, that he didn't get overly involved in the Murray hiring.

 

I think you mean "If we believe PAFan..."

 

Again:  Darcy didn't say any of this in the Vogl article.  If you have facts that support this narrative, please post links and quotes.  Otherwise you're just repeating your theories.

[Thorny]

Great post, Randall.

 

I’ll only add that we can factor in Crosby’s dominance at the international level as well.

[Randall Flagg]

Great post, Randall.

 

I’ll only add that we can factor in Crosby’s dominance at the international level as well.

I meant to say something about that as well. "The Golden Goal" can stand by itself in a career at that level.

[WildCard]

What do you mean in saying that Ovechkin hasn't been able to sustain his play/level of production? 

[Weave]

I think you mean "If we believe PAFan..."

 

Again:  Darcy didn't say any of this in the Vogl article.  If you have facts that support this narrative, please post links and quotes.  Otherwise you're just repeating your theories.

 

FWIW, my memory of Darcy indicating that the owner will dictate the level of rebuild matches PA's.  And I am sure it is damned difficult to track down interviews that  are getting near the decade old mark.

[Randall Flagg]

What do you mean in saying that Ovechkin hasn't been able to sustain his play/level of production?

He had 4 years where he basically averaged 110 points, but has been nearly 35 below that on average for a good stretch of time now

[PASabreFan]

FWIW, my memory of Darcy indicating that the owner will dictate the level of rebuild matches PA's.  And I am sure it is damned difficult to track down interviews that  are getting near the decade old mark.

It was an appearance on GR with The Gambler and The Game Hen toward the end of the 2012-13 season. It's findable, I think.

 

But what's the point? Even the direct quote from Darcy's presser "Terry made the decision" doesn't seem to mean anything to nfreeman. It's fake news. Decision? What decision?

[nfreeman]

It was an appearance on GR with The Gambler and The Game Hen toward the end of the 2012-13 season. It's findable, I think.

 

But what's the point? Even the direct quote from Darcy's presser "Terry made the decision" doesn't seem to mean anything to nfreeman. It's fake news. Decision? What decision?

As I said earlier, “the decision” would refer to signing off on the tank after it was proposed by Darcy — which is qualitatively different from TP deciding to tank and instructing Darcy to implement it. IMHO the former is much more likely than the latter.

 

More to the point — no one here knows, despite PA’s dogged attempts to turn theory into fact.

[SwampD]

As I said earlier, “the decision” would refer to signing off on the tank after it was proposed by Darcy — which is qualitatively different from TP deciding to tank and instructing Darcy to implement it. IMHO the former is much more likely than the latter.

 

More to the point — no one here knows, despite PA’s dogged attempts to turn theory into fact.

That's not what PA said, though, and that's not the point anyway.

 

…Terry didn't just sign off on the tank, he determined what kind of tank it would be...

He said nothing of who proposed it, but pretty much implied that it was Darcy.

 

I remember the GR interview as well.

I also find it hard to believe that after slogging along for almost 15 years trying the same thing over and over to build a team, that a group from Pittsburgh and saw how that team was built, had absolutely no influence on Darcy's approach completely changing (ie. tank). Darcy always took his cue from what ownership wanted (just break even.)

[nfreeman]

That's not what PA said, though, and that's not the point anyway.

 

He said nothing of who proposed it, but pretty much implied that it was Darcy.

 

I remember the GR interview as well.

I also find it hard to believe that after slogging along for almost 15 years trying the same thing over and over to build a team, that a group from Pittsburgh and saw how that team was built, had absolutely no influence on Darcy's approach completely changing (ie. tank). Darcy always took his cue from what ownership wanted (just break even.)

 

What does this mean?

[LGR4GM]

What does this mean?

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25864-the-tank-responsibility-thread/?p=1056527

 

here is an entire thread devoted to this subject. Please leave the Dahlin thread in peace. 

[SwampD]

The more I watch and read, the more excited I am getting about this kid, and I have never gotten excited about a prospect, ever.

[Taro T]

What does this mean?

Not sure.

 

Regardless of who was the Wile E. Coyote Supra Genius that had the brainfart leading to the tank, there are children that will be entering the 2nd grade in the fall that have not existed in a pre-tank world.

[Derrico]

The more I watch and read, the more excited I am getting about this kid, and I have never gotten excited about a prospect, ever.

Not even Jack?

[TrueBlueGED]

The more I watch and read, the more excited I am getting about this kid, and I have never gotten excited about a prospect, ever.

Good man. :beer:

[SwampD]

Not even Jack?

Not even Jack.

[dudacek]

What gets me excited is the kid’s drive seems to match his talent - he comes across as a competitive SOB consumed by hockey.

[shrader]

I don't care about the subject of the tank one bit, but I kind of want to talk about it in here now for some reason.