Trade: Myers, Stafford, Armia, Lemieux, + Low 1st for Kane, Bogosian, and Kasdorf

[Thorny]

I don't read the free press, too tight to pay the money...

Armia will play on the 2nd line in time...if not next year, the next for sure.

 

As far as Lemieux, Roslovic and Armia playing on a consistent basis, Armia already is. Lemieux will make the team but he will not start out any higher than a 4th line winger....he may not ever play on a higher line consistently. I don't like Lemieux's character and would prefer he be traded but that doesn't cloud my opinion of him.

I can't comment on Roslovic as I have never seen him play but he gets good reviews.

 

Kaner is making 6m per and Bogo is making 5.25m per. Staf has outproduced Kane and Myers is playing better than Bogo....also, Bogo and Kaner have missed a substantial amount of time to injuries. Bogo is a -25 in 58 games!!!!!!!! Myers and Staf have missed a few games each and play big minutes on the Jets. Armia is starting to see ti me on the third line and will play on the 2nd in time to come. He's a big body that can skate with good defensive acumen and soft hands. I see why he was a 1st round pick. No matter how you slice it, after a year the Jets look to have got the better of the trade...hands down.

 

One could make the argument that you need to look deeper than the raw stats. The Sabres have improved with their new additions, and the Jets have greatly regressed. Those guys eating big minutes on a terrible team isn't something to be bragging about.

 

Stafford has marginally out produced Kane, but what you see is what you get from Stafford, he isn't going to get any better, and Kane is still young, and has the potential to improve. Stafford is likely going to keep regressing. Stafford also isn't an impact player by any stretch of the imagination, whereas even when Kane isn't producing, he's driving possession and taking the physicality to the other team. Kane is a much better player than Drew Stafford. Right now.

 

Your anecdotal evidence on Armia is largely irrelevant. He has done absolutely nothing to warrant 2nd line minutes now, or show promise of that for the future. If Armia is a future second liner for the Jets, the Jets are in big trouble.

 

If getting the better of a trade "hands down" means your team taking a nosedive in the standings with the traded-for players playing big roles, I don't want the better of a trade. Hands down.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Thorny

[Thorny]

Stafford has 28 points in 49 games, and is a -11. Myers is having a decent year, 19 points in 53 games, +3. Armia has been invisible, Lemieux and the prospect both have equal odds to never play substantially in the NHL. The Jets got some OK players. The players they received are performing a bit better than the players the Sabres got, but there isn't a huge gap there at all, and Kane has the potential to improve significantly.

 

If the Jets "win" this trade, it's not going to be because they got really good players. It's going to be because they got a couple decent, non-impact players who are performing at an average level, at a slightly higher rate than the players we got. This trade is a footnote for the Jets at this point, nothing more.

[Ducky]

One could make the argument that you need to look deeper than the raw stats. The Sabres have improved with their new additions, and the Jets have greatly regressed. Those guys eating big minutes on a terrible team isn't something to be bragging about.

 

Stafford has marginally out produced Kane, but what you see is what you get from Stafford, he isn't going to get any better, and Kane is still young, and has the potential to improve. Stafford is likely going to keep regressing. Stafford also isn't an impact player by any stretch of the imagination, whereas even when Kane isn't producing, he's driving possession and taking the physicality to the other team. Kane is a much better player than Drew Stafford. Right now.

 

Your anecdotal evidence on Armia is largely irrelevant. He has done absolutely nothing to warrant 2nd line minutes now, or show promise of that for the future. If Armia is a future second liner for the Jets, the Jets are in big trouble.

 

If getting the better of a trade "hands down" means your team taking a nosedive in the standings with the traded-for players playing big roles, I don't want the better of a trade. Hands down.

Because ROR and Eichel and Reinhart has nothing to do with the Sabres' play this year?

Because the Jets are playing 4 rookies this year and their #1 goalie is out has nothing to do with their play this year?

But hey, you've gone from last to tied for 2nd last so brag away. You were tanking for McDavid and got Eichel.

Staf had 19 points LAST year with the Jets and Kane has 21 with the Sabres and is playing on their 3rd line for 6m a year and Staf has "marginally" out produced Kane? okay....

Let's say Armia plays the 3rd line for the sake of argument.....isn't that where Kane is playing. Isn't that where he played a LOT of the time with the Jets? Kane has no vision and a low hockey IQ. Open your eyes.

Haven't heard much defense of Bogo???? Lotsa talk about trading him though.

Admit it, after a year, it looks like the Jets got the better deal.

[Thorny]

Because ROR and Eichel and Reinhart has nothing to do with the Sabres' play this year?

Because the Jets are playing 4 rookies this year and their #1 goalie is out has nothing to do with their play this year?

But hey, you've gone from last to tied for 2nd last so brag away. You were tanking for McDavid and got Eichel.

Staf had 19 points LAST year with the Jets and Kane has 21 with the Sabres and is playing on their 3rd line for 6m a year and Staf has "marginally" out produced Kane? okay....

Let's say Armia plays the 3rd line for the sake of argument.....isn't that where Kane is playing. Isn't that where he played a LOT of the time with the Jets? Kane has no vision and a low hockey IQ. Open your eyes.

Haven't heard much defense of Bogo???? Lotsa talk about trading him though.

Admit it, after a year, it looks like the Jets got the better deal.

 

Ducky, my argument is that it is largely irrelevant whether or not the Jets got the "better" of the deal. You are too hung up on winners and losers when it comes to this trade. This isn't Tyler Seguin being traded. Hell, it's not even Phil Kessel. This trade is more likely to end up closer to Kassian/Hodgson than it is to deals that actually have long term significant impact. If any of the players in this trade turn out to be central pieces for their teams, barring an unexpected surprise of one of the prospects, that team would be in big trouble.

 

The results of this trade aren't impacting either team in a major way going forward. Stafford isn't a key cog for the Jets going forward. Myers is a second pairing D man. He's not going to make or break your team. The prospects are a crap shoot. Armia isn't your answer at second line wing. We aren't counting on Kane to be one of our key pieces going forward, unless he finds another level. He is a contributing player for us, and him and Bogosian both add needed grit. But at this point they are role players for us. I am a huge Kane fan, but even I will admit that he isn't the one of the top guys I'll be counting on for goal scoring going forward.

 

If Myers and Stafford and Armia were impact players, the Jets probably wouldn't be near the league's basement, even while rostering some young players. I'll be the first to admit that if Kane was having a 30/40 goal season and Bogosian was contributing a little more, we would be higher up in the standings too. This debate is going to get close to "world's tallest midget" equivalency here if it keeps going like this.

 

Right now, the Jets are getting a little bit better production from the trade. There you have it. Does that make you feel like you've won your central argument and fulfilled your mission statement within this thread? The Jets are in 26th place. The Sabres are in 27th. The Jets are on pace for a 20 point nose dive compared to last year. The Sabres are on pace to improve by 19. So there's a 39 point swing there from last year to this year.

 

The players you traded for aren't having a significant, affecting positive impact on your team. Probably not ours either, at least not in the standings.

 

This trade isn't a big deal anymore. Something something Elsa something something Frozen.

[Thorny]

I also must point something out after reading through the last couple pages again. To me, Ducky, your posts often seem randomly contradictory the point where it's difficult to engage in conversation, wherein you are quick to say positive things about the players we received in the trade, and then once engaged, quickly pull a complete 180 and launch into "open your eyes, admit it" mode. Example, nfreeman posts:

 

As I mentioned in the GDT, Kane fought the same guy 3 times last night -- it's the first time the same 2 guys have fought 3 times in 1 game since 2002.

 

Kane has really hit his stride over the last couple of weeks.  He's been #1 or #2 in ice time among forwards, plays in all situations and has been forechecking like a maniac.  He's meshed well with Larsson and Gionta to form a great possession line that keeps it in the offensive zone and creates a lot of chances.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that he remains the best player in the trade.  Myers could still overtake him, but he'll need to take a major step up to do so.

 

Where you follow up with:

 

Not gonna happen. If anyone turns out more talented than Kaner it will be Armia or possibly Roslovic but I doubt that.

 

Ok, so here you are admitting you think Kane is the most talented player in the trade.

 

But then it's quickly followed up with:

 

Because ROR and Eichel and Reinhart has nothing to do with the Sabres' play this year?

Because the Jets are playing 4 rookies this year and their #1 goalie is out has nothing to do with their play this year?

But hey, you've gone from last to tied for 2nd last so brag away. You were tanking for McDavid and got Eichel.

Staf had 19 points LAST year with the Jets and Kane has 21 with the Sabres and is playing on their 3rd line for 6m a year and Staf has "marginally" out produced Kane? okay....

Let's say Armia plays the 3rd line for the sake of argument.....isn't that where Kane is playing. Isn't that where he played a LOT of the time with the Jets? Kane has no vision and a low hockey IQ. Open your eyes.

Haven't heard much defense of Bogo???? Lotsa talk about trading him though.

Admit it, after a year, it looks like the Jets got the better deal.

 

You seem to have a pretty low opinion of Kane here, and the strong inference is that Armia is the rough equivalent of Kane. But you don't really think Armia is going to be a 3rd line player. You've said a couple times you think he is "destined" for the second line. So wouldn't that make him better than Kane, in your opinion? I thought you had said Kane was the most talented in the trade. I suppose you could say you meant, "well, I mean he's talented, buuuuuuut, he can't 'put it together' like the players we received in the trade can", but it just doesn't seem to mesh up.

 

Now I'm genuinely sure that Ducky is an intelligent individual and I am trying to critique the posts and not the poster here. But it does seem a bit like a complimentary post "lure" here and there, followed immediately with a complete teardown of any player we received once engaged.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Thorny

[Thorny]

A year after the trade...let's take a look at it to see how things have settled.

Kane, Bogosian and Kasdorf for Myers, Stafford, Lemieux and a 1st round that was Roslovic at 25th overall.

 

Roslovic is playing for Miami University in Ohio and is their leading scorer with 21 points in 27 games. Shoots right and has a lot of offensive upside.

Lemieux has been traded part way through the year from Barrie to Windsor and has 45 points in 32 games. He was suspended for an illegal hit earlier in the season and plays with an edge. Will probably play for the Jets before the 2016-2017 season is over.

Armia has played over 20 games with the Jets now and is playing defensively sound hockey. This has given the coach to play him in more situations. Rarely caught out of position. Destined to play on the 2nd line if he keeps it up.

Myers has played 78 games and has scored 34 points. He played a big part in the Jets making the playoffs last year. He is mainly paired with Enstrom and sees time on special teams as well. He has a 5.5m caphit and he is signed for 3 more seasons after this one. His actual salary is 5m this year and 4m, 3.5m, 3m for the last three seasons. Plays in all situations but should be much more aggressive, especially for his size.

Stafford re-signed for 4.35m per year for two years and has played 75 games while scoring 47 points. A big winger that can score and has also seen time on special teams and was also a big part of the Jets making the playoffs last year. He has played all over the lineup this year andhas played well wherever he was put.

 

 

Unless the play of Kane and Bogo increase dramatically, the analysts will look at this trade and say it favors Winnipeg. After one year I would have to say that the trade seems to favor the Jets. Mainly because of the play of the players they traded away. Staf has a higher ppg than Kane and Myers is a better D man than Bogo. Chances are Kasdorf doesn't making starting goalie on the farm and Armia, Lemieux and Roslovic all make the big team. Way to go Chevy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What is the function of this post, other than to brag on a Sabres message board about a perceived win by your team at the expense of the Sabres? The bolded is telling, to me.

[TrueBlueGED]

In this re-enactment of Rocky IV, the role of Apollo Creed was played by Ducky, while Thorny assumed the mantle of Drago.

[nfreeman]

Thorny has carried the flag admirably here.  I'll just add:

 

- I don't see how Armia, with 3 points in 22 games, can be considered as "destined" for the 2nd line. 

 

- Referring to Kane as a 3rd-line player isn't accurate.  He's been in the top 1-2 forwards in ice time for the past few weeks.

 

- There isn't a single NHL GM who would trade Kane for Stafford.  Not one.

 

- Bogo missed all of camp and the first month of the season with a new coach, new system, new goalie and new teammates.  He had a slow start and is also hitting his stride lately, especially since being paired with Pysyk.  Myers is probably the better player but it's close, and Bogo is definitely tougher.

 

- While we certainly can't blame Stafford and Myers for the Jets' nosedive this season, it's also true that the Jets incorporated two guys from a chronic losing team into big roles -- and then fell off the table.

 

- I am really happy to have Kane on my team.  I'd like to see more finish from him, but he plays a relentless, hard game and does not hesitate to stick up for his teammates in a scrum. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

How about this notion?

 

Since both teams got what they both viewed as what they needed then both teams *won* the trade.  So far, it has worked out pretty well for both.

 

I will agree with nfreeman that Kane is the best player in the trade, so from that prospective the Sabres won it. Not to mention the fact that he was the type of player that the Sabres needed most. After that the Sabres needed a tougher Dman ... I submit that Bogo is way ahead of Myers in that department. Stafford, while a good player for the Sabres, needed a change.

[LTS]

Sometimes in a trade it's not always the talent of the players that leave but the number of players.

 

What do I mean?

 

Well, if the Sabres removed 4 players from their roster (Stafford, Myers, Lemieux, and Armia) then who did the Sabres gain with those 2 open player slots?

 

Even if you wash out Stafford/Myers and Kane/Bogosian and go purely on the remaining players it might be argued the Sabres were able to sign or keep two players they would not have been able to keep while Lemieux and Armia remained signed with the team.

 

I think it's safe to say the players have contributed to their respective teams in much the same way they had prior to the trade.  However, the Sabres needed players like Kane and Bogosian more than they needed players like Stafford and Myers.

 

Armia is still Armia.. he's not doing anything different.  The Sabres outlook on him was.. "meh" and he's still "meh".  However he's now Winnipeg's "meh" to worry about where as the player now filling his role in the Sabres might be "meh +1" or even "has serious potential". 

[Hoss]

Sometimes you walk up to a clearly poor man trying to sell the bits and pieces of what was once his home. He's asking $50 for a ragged old picture frame as he has no family to frame. Most will scoff at the idea but eventually somebody may look at it and say, "this frame isn't worth $50 but I'll take it. I can see my own family sitting within this frame, and I've got $50 to spare today." In this agreement the $50 will have far more value to almost everybody but especially to the man selling the frame. But the man who bought the frame just lost his wife and child and wanted a frame to represent his emotions.

 

Value isn't universal.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Hoss

[Derrico]

Ducky, I enjoyed reading your insight and perspective up until your last few posts.  Seems like you are just trolling now.  Hasn't seemed like your character up until this point.  I don't watch Armia now that he's on the Jets but he was turning into a bust here and his 3 points in 20+ games sure doesn't scream top 6 forward.

[WildCard]

I bet the Sabres make the playoffs again before the Jets do.

Yeap. And I think the play/attitudes of Myers & Stafford vs Kane & Bogo has a lot to do with it. It's a culture change. I, in no way, will ever miss Myers or Stafford. The only possible regret I could have from this trade would be Bogo

Thorny has carried the flag admirably here.  I'll just add:

 

- I don't see how Armia, with 3 points in 22 games, can be considered as "destined" for the 2nd line. 

 

- Referring to Kane as a 3rd-line player isn't accurate.  He's been in the top 1-2 forwards in ice time for the past few weeks.

 

- There isn't a single NHL GM who would trade Kane for Stafford.  Not one.

 

- Bogo missed all of camp and the first month of the season with a new coach, new system, new goalie and new teammates.  He had a slow start and is also hitting his stride lately, especially since being paired with Pysyk.  Myers is probably the better player but it's close, and Bogo is definitely tougher.

 

- While we certainly can't blame Stafford and Myers for the Jets' nosedive this season, it's also true that the Jets incorporated two guys from a chronic losing team into big roles -- and then fell off the table.

 

- I am really happy to have Kane on my team.  I'd like to see more finish from him, but he plays a relentless, hard game and does not hesitate to stick up for his teammates in a scrum. 

Bingo. Bango. Bongo. nfreeman nails it

[Ducky]

OFcourse it is a culture change.....listen to Staf's and Myers' comments after they played a few games here.

Thorny, Kane is the most talented and if he were to hit his ceiling, everyone would be wondering why the Jets traded him. He has hit a plateau and nothing suggests he will get any better. Same as Myers.

I know that whenever I stick up for myself or my team on here someone eventually calls me a troll. The freakin thread is about the trade so how did I troll?

I guess with the Sabres being your team you look at the trade differently than a Jets fan but a blind man would tell you which players he would take in that trade.

As far as who makes the playoffs first? I'd bet on who gets more points next season as we play in a much harder division.

Say all you want about Armia but the scoop on here was he wasn't playing on the Sabres because of the tank. Like I have said, if all he makes is the third line, he will have equaled Kane's position for most of his NHL career.

Go back and read the threads when the trade was made. Compare it to any Jets site after the trade. Sorry to see Bogo go and see ya Kaner and who is Kasdorf? Go read them now...........they are calling it a landslide.....but I am trolling.....Later

[darksabre]

OFcourse it is a culture change.....listen to Staf's and Myers' comments after they played a few games here.

Thorny, Kane is the most talented and if he were to hit his ceiling, everyone would be wondering why the Jets traded him. He has hit a plateau and nothing suggests he will get any better. Same as Myers.

I know that whenever I stick up for myself or my team on here someone eventually calls me a troll. The freakin thread is about the trade so how did I troll?

I guess with the Sabres being your team you look at the trade differently than a Jets fan but a blind man would tell you which players he would take in that trade.

As far as who makes the playoffs first? I'd bet on who gets more points next season as we play in a much harder division.

Say all you want about Armia but the scoop on here was he wasn't playing on the Sabres because of the tank. Like I have said, if all he makes is the third line, he will have equaled Kane's position for most of his NHL career.

Go back and read the threads when the trade was made. Compare it to any Jets site after the trade. Sorry to see Bogo go and see ya Kaner and who is Kasdorf? Go read them now...........they are calling it a landslide.....but I am trolling.....Later

What was the gist of their comments? I don't remember. 

[MattPie]

 

As far as who makes the playoffs first? I'd bet on who gets more points next season as we play in a much harder division.

Say all you want about Armia but the scoop on here was he wasn't playing on the Sabres because of the tank. Like I have said, if all he makes is the third line, he will have equaled Kane's position for most of his NHL career.

 

 

The Tank idea was widely talked about with Pysyk (a young D here, now playing full time with the Sabres), but I never heard anyone here suggest that for Armia. To be honest, there wasn't much chatter here about him the last couple years, I think most people had consigned him to AHL or Europe lifer. I hope he turns out OK, he just never impressed.

[WildCard]

Say all you want about Armia but the scoop on here was he wasn't playing on the Sabres because of the tank. Like I have said, if all he makes is the third line, he will have equaled Kane's position for most of his NHL career.

I would say, no. He wasn't playing on the Sabres because he was playing poorly in the AHL. Bailey, a first year guy in the leage (our prospect called up today), has outproduced Armis in his rookie year. Armia has concussion issues, and his finesse style just isn't made for the NHL. In 5 years, he won't even be on the Jets, and maybe not in the league

[Derrico]

OFcourse it is a culture change.....listen to Staf's and Myers' comments after they played a few games here.

Thorny, Kane is the most talented and if he were to hit his ceiling, everyone would be wondering why the Jets traded him. He has hit a plateau and nothing suggests he will get any better. Same as Myers.

I know that whenever I stick up for myself or my team on here someone eventually calls me a troll. The freakin thread is about the trade so how did I troll?

I guess with the Sabres being your team you look at the trade differently than a Jets fan but a blind man would tell you which players he would take in that trade.

As far as who makes the playoffs first? I'd bet on who gets more points next season as we play in a much harder division.

Say all you want about Armia but the scoop on here was he wasn't playing on the Sabres because of the tank. Like I have said, if all he makes is the third line, he will have equaled Kane's position for most of his NHL career.

Go back and read the threads when the trade was made. Compare it to any Jets site after the trade. Sorry to see Bogo go and see ya Kaner and who is Kasdorf? Go read them now...........they are calling it a landslide.....but I am trolling.....Later

How on earth did you feel the need to 'stick up for yourself or your team'??  You're first post today was not in response to anything anyone else said that may have slighted you or your fanbase.  You came on a Sabres message board gloating about a trade that you feel your team won when a) it's way too early to determine a winner and loser and b) made some outlandish predictions on players involved.  That's the very definition of trolling.

 

Also, who said that about Armia?  He couldn't make the team.  Pysyk was kept in Roch last year because of the tank.  Not Armia.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Derrico

[Weave]

Oh, FFS.  Ducky's doing what we do here all the time.  I don't see the big deal.  

[K-9]

How about this notion?

 

Since both teams got what they both viewed as what they needed then both teams *won* the trade.  So far, it has worked out pretty well for both.

 

I will agree with nfreeman that Kane is the best player in the trade, so from that prospective the Sabres won it. Not to mention the fact that he was the type of player that the Sabres needed most. After that the Sabres needed a tougher Dman ... I submit that Bogo is way ahead of Myers in that department. Stafford, while a good player for the Sabres, needed a change.

Ah, sanity. 

 

All this fretting over who won this trade of that trade is just a manifestation of an insecure fan psyche. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[qwksndmonster]

Sometimes you walk up to a clearly poor man trying to sell the bits and pieces of what was once his home. He's asking $50 for a ragged old picture frame as he has no family to frame. Most will scoff at the idea but eventually somebody may look at it and say, "this frame isn't worth $50 but I'll take it. I can see my own family sitting within this frame, and I've got $50 to spare today." In this agreement the $50 will have far more value to almost everybody but especially to the man selling the frame. But the man who bought the frame just lost his wife and child and wanted a frame to represent his emotions.

 

Value isn't universal.

This got weird.  I might've laughed a little.

[Marvelo]

All I know is Winnipeg is 24-26-3-51 and Buffalo is 21-27-6-48. The trades are a wash. It's mediocre for mediocre, it's bums with plane tickets and this supposed culture change is a fraud. Winnipeg has actually gone down this year while the Sabres are staying the same. They're both pretty much in last place so what's the argument? They are all non-factors, at least scoring wise.

[TrueBlueGED]

Oh, FFS. Ducky's doing what we do here all the time. I don't see the big deal.

Nonsense. We don't engage in the absurd pumping up of our own prospects.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*nervously glances in the direction of all post-lottery Eichel vs McDavid discussion*

[inkman]

What was the gist of their comments? I don't remember.

Everyone loves new uh...destinations. It looks good, feels good, tastes good. Then a couple years later your like "man, this destination is a lot like my previous destination".

[Taro T]

Personally, I'd expect that the winner(s) of this trade will be apparent sometime mid-next season to mid-the following season.

 

It often takes guys at least a season to fully gel in a new role. (I'm looking at you Spacek. ;))

 

If Kane keeps eating top line minutes while scoring as ~ a 2nd liner, all while playing on the 3rd line, 2nd pp, & 3rd pk pair; he'll have brought value to the Sabres (& IMHO more than Staff, Armia, & a late 1st). If Bogosian can continue growing into the physical 2nd pairing defender he's looked like at times; he'll have brought value comparable to what Myrrs & Lemieux were bringing.

 

If so, the Sabres would probably do that trade again. If the Jets feel similarly - they got what THEY needed; the trade's a wash.

 

Sometimes that happens. (See the trade that sent Iginla to Calgary & Joey N to Dallas.)