Trade: Myers, Stafford, Armia, Lemieux, + Low 1st for Kane, Bogosian, and Kasdorf

[shrader]

If we are still adamant about making these premature trade evaluations, shouldn't we take note of the fact that BOTH teams are currently in last place?

[LGR4GM]

Here's a fun tsn article on Evander, I'll quote the one part but it is a good read.

http://www.tsn.ca/with-evander-kane-there-are-always-questions-1.420007

 

Stafford has heavily outscored Kane since the trade, while Myers has done the same to Bogosian. Kane, however, is the standout leader in a number of analytic areas. Of the principle players in the trade, Kane has the largest positive impact on his team’s ability to outshoot and out-possess opponents, and it’s by a wide margin.

He’s just not getting as much done in the actual scoring department. But with a startlingly low PDO of 94.4 and a shooting percentage of 7.1 per cent, Kane’s production should rise.

[beerme1]

If we are still adamant about making these premature trade evaluations, shouldn't we take note of the fact that BOTH teams are currently in last place?

 

 

Don't try to slant the rant!

[Thwomp!]

There's a difference between alarmed and shouting the Armageddon is nigh

 

Just alarmed as opposed to general consensus that the trade was fine despite much evidence to the contrary.  I want Kane/Bogo to turn it around.  I just see no evidence that it will happen.

You are not the only one alarmed about it.  But you are pretty lonely in believing there was much, if anything, better to be had instead of Bogo/Kane. for those shlubs.

 

As Liger says, "We'll never know".  What we did get is not good so far.  If Stafford/Myers are schlubs and are clearly outperforming Bogo/Kane, what does that make Bogo/Kane?

Myers, as one supposed drunken GMTM conversation described, is a giant ######.  I'm just fine with him gone.  Kane for Stafford is much the same as Myers for Bogo except Kane is better at everything than Stafford.  We got a heart transplant maybe with a tiny sacrifice of brains.  Myers and Stafford will never do the things Bogo and Kane do. 

 

What do they do again?  Where are the results?  Where are the signs of being in the "future core"?  The "concept" of Kane and Bogo is getting quite strong around here.  It's crazy because there's nothing to back it up.

If we are still adamant about making these premature trade evaluations, shouldn't we take note of the fact that BOTH teams are currently in last place?

 

Thanks.  That actually makes it a better comparison.  An almost level playing field if you will.  Except for one team being out of the playoffs by 4 points and one being out by 10.  :ph34r:

 

Neither pair is playing on a great team currently.  One pair's stats are worlds better.  That better stats pair's team also has a bunch of futures as well.  Great trade for that team.  Not so much for the other.

Here's a fun tsn article on Evander, I'll quote the one part but it is a good read.

http://www.tsn.ca/with-evander-kane-there-are-always-questions-1.420007

 

When all else fails.... #fancystats

[Weave]

ZOMG I like my stats better than yours!   :rolleyes:

[Thwomp!]

Yeah, you know, games played, goals scored, assists, plus/minus, points per game, points pace for the whole season, etc etc.

 

Those crazy stats.  If literally none of those work for you, go #fancystats.  And I even like #fancystats.  It's just kind of a stretch to invoke them in this case.  It's like going to the 12th tiebreaker.

[shrader]

Thanks.  That actually makes it a better comparison.  An almost level playing field if you will.  Except for one team being out of the playoffs by 4 points and one being out by 10.  :ph34r:

 

 

Someone could probably put up a decent argument that the gap would be much closer if it wasn't for the pair of injuries.  Either way, both teams have a tough uphill battle in front of them.

[Weave]

Yeah, you know, games played, goals scored, assists, plus/minus, points per game, points pace for the whole season, etc etc.

 

Those crazy stats.  If literally none of those work for you, go #fancystats.  And I even like #fancystats.  It's just kind of a stretch to invoke them in this case.  It's like going to the 12th tiebreaker.

 

It's not a stretch at all.  It shows an area where we've improved with Kane/Bogo.  Obviously, scoring among the 4 NHL'ers involved is lopsided Winnie's way, but if you can't/won't acknowledge that there are areas we have improved as a result of that swap, well...... enjoy the sand in your eyes.

[nfreeman]

Just alarmed as opposed to general consensus that the trade was fine despite much evidence to the contrary.  I want Kane/Bogo to turn it around.  I just see no evidence that it will happen.

 

What do they do again?  Where are the results?  Where are the signs of being in the "future core"?  The "concept" of Kane and Bogo is getting quite strong around here.  It's crazy because there's nothing to back it up.

 

 

I agree that there is little ground for any Sabres fan to be exulting about "winning" this trade at this point.  However, the eye test clearly indicates that Kane is very often a beast on the ice.  He plays a hard game, pushes the action, hits, stands up for his teammates and impacts the game much more than Stafford does -- and this is borne out by the fancystats.  I'm reasonably confident that he will keep doing so and his scoring numbers will come.

 

As for Myers and Bogo -- I think it's important to remember that Bogo's injury caused him to miss camp and the first month or so of the season, with a new defense partner, a bunch of new teammates, new goalies, a new coaching staff, etc.  We can't really evaluate him after 20-odd games.  And while Myers' stats certainly are better than Bogo's, the allure of Myers is that he might turn into a franchise defenseman, or at least a real difference-maker.  That hasn't happened. 

 

Bottom line, IMHO, is that it's still far too soon to judge the trade -- so IMHO your buyer's remorse is premature albeit not from outer space.

[Thwomp!]

It's not a stretch at all.  It shows an area where we've improved with Kane/Bogo.  Obviously, scoring among the 4 NHL'ers involved is lopsided Winnie's way, but if you can't/won't acknowledge that there are areas we have improved as a result of that swap, well...... enjoy the sand in your eyes.

 

Yep, we've improved in some (too few) areas.  Not as many as Winnipeg has and they've got a bunch of futures to play with as well.

 

 

I agree that there is little ground for any Sabres fan to be exulting about "winning" this trade at this point.  However, the eye test clearly indicates that Kane is very often a beast on the ice.  He plays a hard game, pushes the action, hits, stands up for his teammates and impacts the game much more than Stafford does -- and this is borne out by the fancystats.  I'm reasonably confident that he will keep doing so and his scoring numbers will come.

 

As for Myers and Bogo -- I think it's important to remember that Bogo's injury caused him to miss camp and the first month or so of the season, with a new defense partner, a bunch of new teammates, new goalies, a new coaching staff, etc.  We can't really evaluate him after 20-odd games.  And while Myers' stats certainly are better than Bogo's, the allure of Myers is that he might turn into a franchise defenseman, or at least a real difference-maker.  That hasn't happened. 

 

Bottom line, IMHO, is that it's still far too soon to judge the trade -- so IMHO your buyer's remorse is premature albeit not from outer space.

 

I'm fine with revisiting after a full season.  As I've said numerous times it'd be nice to see signs of hope with regard to this trade, but I'm not seeing it yet, and I fear it's not coming.  We'll see if the "concepts" are fact or fiction at that point.

[LGR4GM]

Yep, we've improved in some (too few) areas.  Not as many as Winnipeg has and they've got a bunch of futures to play with as well.

Winnipeg has actual gotten worse this year. They had 99points last year and were a wildcard team. This year they are pace to get 82pts.

 

This is my entire problem with this argument.  You are acting like Winnipeg is just fantastic now and going to be even better once the futures mature but they are worse thus far. 

 

The Sabres have improved in every single measurable area. They have lost 13, 1 goal games. Do I wish they hadn't yes but they are a much better hockey team and Kane in particular is one reason. 

[Weave]

Yep, we've improved in some (too few) areas.  Not as many as Winnipeg has and they've got a bunch of futures to play with as well.

 

 

What is the makeup of Winnie's roster this season compared to pre-trade last?  And where is Winnie in the standings?  Myers and Staff may have points, but that team is worse overall after that trade.  

[Thwomp!]

Winnipeg has actual gotten worse this year. They had 99points last year and were a wildcard team. This year they are pace to get 82pts.

 

This is my entire problem with this argument.  You are acting like Winnipeg is just ###### fantastic now and going to be even better once the futures mature but they are worse thus far. 

 

The Sabres have improved in every single measurable area. They have lost 13, 1 goal games. Do I wish they hadn't yes but they are a much better hockey team and Kane in particular is one reason. 

 

You're putting words in my mouth.  According to the large majority of stats Winnipeg is getting better production from the trade with a chance of more to come in the future.  That's what I meant that they have gotten more improvement from it. One of those stats is that they're much closer to the playoffs than the Sabres are.  Isolating the trade is all I'm doing.  Individual performances on two under performing teams.

 

 

What is the makeup of Winnie's roster this season compared to pre-trade last?  And where is Winnie in the standings?  Myers and Staff may have points, but that team is worse overall after that trade.  

 

They made the playoffs after that trade.  They may be worse after the off season and so far this season, but Myers and Stafford's play has been good for them and not the reason they're worse imo. 

 

Kane and Bogo's under performances are one of the reasons the Sabres are under performing.  Supposed key cogs not living up to their potential. Again imo.

[LGR4GM]

You're putting words in my mouth.  According to the large majority of stats Winnipeg is getting better production from the trade with a chance of more to come in the future.  That's what I meant that they have gotten more improvement from it. One of those stats is that they're much closer to the playoffs than the Sabres are.  Isolating the trade is all I'm doing.  Individual performances on two under performing teams.

 

 

 

They made the playoffs after that trade.  They may be worse after the off season and so far this season, but Myers and Stafford's play has been good for them and not the reason they're worse imo. 

 

Kane and Bogo's under performances are one of the reasons the Sabres are under performing.  Supposed key cogs not living up to their potential. Again imo.

But the Winnipeg the team hasn't improved.

 

 

Everytime someone brings up a counter point you dismiss it as though it is irrelevant.  It is too early to judge the trade, right now winnipeg is winning it, it isn't as lopsided as you are trying to claim. Should we be worried GMTM up? yes. Should we have devoted two pages to it 40 games into the first season after the trade? Probably not.

Edited January 8, 2016 by LGR4GM

[beerme1]

Just alarmed as opposed to general consensus that the trade was fine despite much evidence to the contrary.  I want Kane/Bogo to turn it around.  I just see no evidence that it will happen.

 

 

 

Did you see BOGO play last season? I'm taking that over Myers every time thanks. These guys at 24 years old and Kane having scored 30 once and yet you see no evidence of them turning it around? Not sure why the grudge you carry on this deal is so big but I have 100% faith both these guys will be what we expect them to be.

[Thwomp!]

But the Winnipeg the team hasn't improved.

 

 

Everytime someone brings up a counter point you dismiss it as though it is irrelevant.  It is too early to judge the trade, right now winnipeg is winning it, it isn't as lopsided as you are trying to claim. Should we be worried GMTM ###### up? yes. Should we have devoted two pages to it 40 games into the first season after the trade? Probably not.

 

 

Did you see BOGO play last season? I'm taking that over Myers every time thanks. These guys at 24 years old and Kane having scored 30 once and yet you see no evidence of them turning it around? Not sure why the grudge you carry on this deal is so big but I have 100% faith both these guys will be what we expect them to be.

 

My position is officially staked.  OK, gents I'm off this thread until after the season.  Should be less ifs, ands, or buts then.  Thanks beerme for perfectly explaining the "concepts" of Kane and Bogo.  Carry on with the discussion of how Kane and Bogo just have to break out at any time now.

 

Oh and Liger, Winnipeg could easily make the playoffs again.  Half a season and 4 points out is nothing.  May not have improved, but they haven't slid far either.  I don't know their team well, but I'm sure Ducky would have several factors on his list before he got to Stafford and Myers' play as holding the team back.  How far down the list is Kane and Bogo's struggles as reasons for the Sabres' lack of success?  Not nearly as far, imo.

[Weave]

You're putting words in my mouth.  According to the large majority of stats Winnipeg is getting better production from the trade with a chance of more to come in the future.  That's what I meant that they have gotten more improvement from it. One of those stats is that they're much closer to the playoffs than the Sabres are.  Isolating the trade is all I'm doing.  Individual performances on two under performing teams.

 

 

 

They made the playoffs after that trade.  They may be worse after the off season and so far this season, but Myers and Stafford's play has been good for them and not the reason they're worse imo. 

 

Kane and Bogo's under performances are one of the reasons the Sabres are under performing.  Supposed key cogs not living up to their potential. Again imo.

 

Winnie was set for the playoffs before the trade happened.  You saw what happened in the playoffs, right?  Myers and Staff folded.  And this year the team are worse.  Net loss.

[LGR4GM]

My position is officially staked.  OK, gents I'm off this thread until after the season.  Should be less ifs, ands, or buts then.  Thanks beerme for perfectly explaining the "concepts" of Kane and Bogo.  Carry on with the discussion of how Kane and Bogo just have to break out at any time now.

 

Oh and Liger, Winnipeg could easily make the playoffs again.  Half a season and 4 points out is nothing.  May not have improved, but they haven't slid far either.  I don't know their team well, but I'm sure Ducky would have several factors on his list before he got to Stafford and Myers' play as holding the team back.  How far down the list is Kane and Bogo's struggles as reasons for the Sabres' lack of success?  Not nearly as far, imo.

4 points out and 1 game ahead so potentially 6 points.  Buffalo has 42 games left and 10 points to make up.  If they win 50% of their 1 goal games form here on out that is 12 points.  Again you fail to see Buffalo as anything but and are all about how easy it will be for Winnipeg to ride Stafford and Myers to the playoffs or make the playoffs anyways because they "haven't slid far".  They are projected at the halfway point to get 82 points down from 99 a year ago. Thats a big freaking drop. 

 

If Kane continues to suck and Bogo continues to suck sure we can bitch about it all we want but right now you are tossing out whatever you can to make your argument from how Lemieux is comparable to Nylander to how Stafford and Myers points count for everything even if fancystats question that notion.  That just isn't the big picture. Once we have a complete picture at years end we can bitch all summer about this trade but for now I am content to wait it out.

[nfreeman]

Winnie was set for the playoffs before the trade happened.  You saw what happened in the playoffs, right?  Myers and Staff folded.  And this year the team are worse.  Net loss.

 

For the record, I object to this Euro-soccer-team weird plural usage.

[Weave]

For the record, I object to this Euro-soccer-team weird plural usage.

 

As do I.  Clearly it was an error.   :P

[Thwomp!]

Winnie was set for the playoffs before the trade happened.  You saw what happened in the playoffs, right?  Myers and Staff folded.  And this year the team are worse.  Net loss.

 

4 points out and 1 game ahead so potentially 6 points.  Buffalo has 42 games left and 10 points to make up.  If they win 50% of their 1 goal games form here on out that is 12 points.  Again you fail to see Buffalo as anything but ###### and are all about how easy it will be for Winnipeg to ride Stafford and Myers to the playoffs or make the playoffs anyways because they "haven't slid far".  They are projected at the halfway point to get 82 points down from 99 a year ago. Thats a big freaking drop. 

 

If Kane continues to suck and Bogo continues to suck sure we can bitch about it all we want but right now you are tossing out whatever you can to make your argument from how Lemieux is comparable to Nylander to how Stafford and Myers points count for everything even if fancystats question that notion.  That just isn't the big picture. Once we have a complete picture at years end we can bitch all summer about this trade but for now I am content to wait it out.

 

OK, is it wait for the end of the season or argue now?  I've chosen wait until the end of the season.  I've said all I can say and more and I'm not going back in despite the fact that Liger is mischaracterizing several of my points and plain making stuff up as well.  See you back here April 10th!

[dudacek]

So, Eastside is the only one who would rather have Staff and Myers than Bogo and Kane?

Until at least one of the other three parts becomes a better-than-average player, I keep making that trade without question.

We are better off, even with our guys being as disappointing as they have been.

Bottom line, we got the better players who are a better fit for what I want my team to be.

Edited January 8, 2016 by dudacek

[Thorny]

Okay, but the guys who agitate and score are great to have.  Why I mentioned Marchand/Gallagher/Burrows.  They all have a solid place in the league.  Lemieux's ceiling is one of those guys.  We don't currently have that guy in our system.

 

But to summarize everything.  I don't like the trade for several reasons.  The main one being that Winnipeg is currently winning the trade and has a good chance to run the score up on it as time passes.

 

I get what you are saying, but to think Brendan Lemieux is going to put up Marchand numbers is unrealistic. It's a huge stretch, and you are overrating the potential of this second rounder to do so.

 

If we are still adamant about making these premature trade evaluations, shouldn't we take note of the fact that BOTH teams are currently in last place?

 

 

An important point. Winnipeg is significantly worse this year so far than last year, and while Myers is having a decent season, he is currently second overall in ice time on the Jets roster. I'm not saying he is to blame for the struggles of the Jets. But they are counting on him to be an all situations top pairing D, and as we have seen, that doesn't usually end up well. So far, leaning on Myers has them in last place. How much they would be better off without him in such a large role, is hard to say.

 

Myers, as one supposed drunken GMTM conversation described, is a giant ######.  I'm just fine with him gone.  Kane for Stafford is much the same as Myers for Bogo except Kane is better at everything than Stafford.  We got a heart transplant maybe with a tiny sacrifice of brains.  Myers and Stafford will never do the things Bogo and Kane do. 

 

Amen.

 

They made the playoffs after that trade.  They may be worse after the off season and so far this season, but Myers and Stafford's play has been good for them and not the reason they're worse imo. 

 

Kane and Bogo's under performances are one of the reasons the Sabres are under performing.  Supposed key cogs not living up to their potential. Again imo.

 

If you can call getting swept in the first round "making the playoffs". And yes, Myers and Stafford have been good but if they are counting on them to be key cogs of their core, they will be disappointed.

 

My position is officially staked.  OK, gents I'm off this thread until after the season.  Should be less ifs, ands, or buts then.  Thanks beerme for perfectly explaining the "concepts" of Kane and Bogo.  Carry on with the discussion of how Kane and Bogo just have to break out at any time now.

 

Oh and Liger, Winnipeg could easily make the playoffs again.  Half a season and 4 points out is nothing.  May not have improved, but they haven't slid far either.  I don't know their team well, but I'm sure Ducky would have several factors on his list before he got to Stafford and Myers' play as holding the team back.  How far down the list is Kane and Bogo's struggles as reasons for the Sabres' lack of success?  Not nearly as far, imo.

 

They have, they are on pace for 17 points less than last year. The have noticeably regressed.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Thorny

[Thwomp!]

So, Eastside is the only one who would rather have Staff and Myers than Bogo and Kane?

Until at least one of the other three parts becomes a better-than-average player, I keep making that trade without question.

We are better off, even with our guys being as disappointing as they have been.

Bottom line, we got the better players who are a better fit for what I want my team to be.

 

Yes, but Staff, Myers, Armia, Lemieux, and our first.  I want the trade fully rescinded.  They can even have Kasdorf back.

Oh and to turn back time because I'd still like to unload Staff (especially him due to the expiring contract) and Myers before the deadline last year  :P   

[LGR4GM]

OK, is it wait for the end of the season or argue now? I've chosen wait until the end of the season. I've said all I can say and more and I'm not going back in despite the fact that Liger is mischaracterizing several of my points and plain making stuff up as well. See you back here April 10th!

Kiss my shiny metal ass.