Around the NHL: 2021

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

Given what had happened to baseball after analytics took over people want to be careful how they use this data.

All of a sudden in baseball nobody can score runs. Well gee whiz Beav, for at least a generation of young players you've been emphasizing things like swing angle over contact and not signing players who put the ball in play and hit singles in favor of guys who walk and hit extra base hits. The analytics tell those guys never to hit the other way and never take the single because it's sets up a double play and those are bad. The strikeout is better they are told. So they do that. Then 16 more guys do it too and pretty soon you're deep into a ballgame where nothing had happened. They wanna talk about moving the mound now. How about, just maybe, you stop trying to hit through a a shift every at bat because the guy with the abacus tells you to. How about, just once or twice, you take what the defense is giving you and force them to change? No? Well then enjoy your steady diet of breaking pitches away in the zone that you will continually pull into a shift or miss entirely.

I think analytics has a place, especially in baseball, but you have explained perfectly how the pendulum has swung too far.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Eleven

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

Given what had happened to baseball after analytics took over people want to be careful how they use this data.

All of a sudden in baseball nobody can score runs. Well gee whiz Beav, for at least a generation of young players you've been emphasizing things like swing angle over contact and not signing players who put the ball in play and hit singles in favor of guys who walk and hit extra base hits. The analytics tell those guys never to hit the other way and never take the single because it's sets up a double play and those are bad. The strikeout is better they are told. So they do that. Then 16 more guys do it too and pretty soon you're deep into a ballgame where nothing had happened. They wanna talk about moving the mound now. How about, just maybe, you stop trying to hit through a a shift every at bat because the guy with the abacus tells you to. How about, just once or twice, you take what the defense is giving you and force them to change? No? Well then enjoy your steady diet of breaking pitches away in the zone that you will continually pull into a shift or miss entirely.

Good thing we're talking about hockey not baseball. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by LGR4GM

[#freejame]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Good thing we're talking about hockey not baseball. 

We can absolutely talk about how the advancements in analytics and advanced scouting in baseball can impact baseball, but the above is focusing on the wrong aspects. Bat speed, contact rates, route efficiency, sprint times, etc. The entire statcast system that has been so amazing for baseball is being similarly implemented in the NHL and smart teams are going to be on the forefront of gathering and applying this data for all sorts of purposes. Hiring from MLB teams for front office positions makes perfect sense. No other sport has the bevy of front office personnel that baseball has. I know none of this is news to you, but just throwing it out. 

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, #freejame said:

We can absolutely talk about how the advancements in analytics and advanced scouting in baseball can impact baseball, but the above is focusing on the wrong aspects. Bat speed, contact rates, route efficiency, sprint times, etc. The entire statcast system that has been so amazing for baseball is being similarly implemented in the NHL and smart teams are going to be on the forefront of gathering and applying this data for all sorts of purposes. Hiring from MLB teams for front office positions makes perfect sense. No other sport has the bevy of front office personnel that baseball has. I know none of this is news to you, but just throwing it out. 

That wasn't my point at all. Not even in the same... ballpark

[#freejame]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

That wasn't my point at all. Not even in the same... ballpark

I know it wasn’t. Your point was what they were saying isn’t applicable. I agree with you. I am saying that understanding baseball analytics and hiring from their front office can be worthwhile for a variety of reasons, none of which were mentioned. 

[#freejame]

18 minutes ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

And my point was I'm not sure why people are excited about a trend expanding from a sport that destroyed  itself. There are plenty of things about data and data analysis that are great. There are plenty of ways that baseball had applied that knowledge to the detriment of its own product.

Baseball isn’t destroying itself with analytics. Rob Manfred is destroying baseball. Analytics are why there’s all the great young talent there is today. 

[Taro T]

6 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Beautiful summary of how baseball has been ruined by the “home run or strike out” mentality.   It sucks. 😞

It certainly does.

Dave Kingman's laughing somewhere. 

[triumph_communes]

Y’all talk about analytics like people are going to start color coding arbitrary models and using colored bar charts to assemble their teams without regard for anything else

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, #freejame said:

I know it wasn’t. Your point was what they were saying isn’t applicable. I agree with you. I am saying that understanding baseball analytics and hiring from their front office can be worthwhile for a variety of reasons, none of which were mentioned. 

No, my point was hockey will never be controlled in the way baseball is because of analytics. 

I think hiring an analytics person from baseball is clever

[Flashsabre]

https://twitter.com/markscheig/status/1398432070251188226?s=20

 

This would really alter the future of some teams plans.😳😳

[SDS]

My earliest memory of anything that smacks as analytics was Earl Weaver from the Baltimore Orioles. Earl was famous for his card catalog of batters versus pitchers and him always trying out who had the most success against the current pitcher during a game.

likewise, Jim Palmer we talk about how it was OK to give up the occasional run, but at all costs and you were never to give up the three run homer.

if I’m not mistaken, the Baltimore orioles were the winningest team in baseball during the Earl Weaver years.

[Hoss]

19 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

https://twitter.com/markscheig/status/1398432070251188226?s=20

 

This would really alter the future of some teams plans.😳😳

Bettman hinted when the new tv deal was signed that the salary cap wouldn’t go up for a while despite the new money. These player’s associations are absolute dogshit at negotiating.

[Thorny]

Great, how many of the next 5 seasons will be accompanied by the talk of the best thing about them being the silver lining of a “cap space offseason” and a blank slate? 😋

[thewookie1]

21 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

https://twitter.com/markscheig/status/1398432070251188226?s=20

 

This would really alter the future of some teams plans.😳😳

If that’s the case, the league would have to have some compliance buyouts or else the league as a whole would run into a problem. 

Lets say the league stays around 82mil until 2025. As the team’s presently with cap begin to vanish. The league would eventually run into a crisis of 3/4th of league being cap strapped and everything would dry up with so many teams incapable of resigning players and making trades.

 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

If that’s the case, the league would have to have some compliance buyouts or else the league as a whole would run into a problem. 

Lets say the league stays around 82mil until 2025. As the team’s presently with cap begin to vanish. The league would eventually run into a crisis of 3/4th of league being cap strapped and everything would dry up with so many teams incapable of resigning players and making trades.

 

The players don't want compliance buyouts as they count towards the players share of revenues.  (At least they did in the last CBA.)  And that full amount essentially comes out of everybody's salary.

Would expect some combination of increased cap with additional escrow to be how this moves forward until the players have paid back their extra pay from last season & this season.  Which would effectively keep payrolls constant but would reduce take home $'s of players on existing contracts.  (I.e., the guys that got overpaid these past 2 seasons per the CBA as the players actually ended up with more than 50% of HRR end up taking the brunt of the hit (technically, everybody takes the hit, but guys signing deals after such a deal has been worked out between the PA & the league know ahead of time that they'll get say 90% of their nominal contract unless revenues really shoot up but the guys on existing deals expected those to pay roughly 100% of the nominal value) and guys that weren't on those deals get more.  Just like it always works as the cap goes up.  Briere's hoped for $5x5 deal would've been a monster in '06 but who wouldn't be ecstatic should Reinhart accept that tomorrow.)

[BagBoy]

17 hours ago, SDS said:

My earliest memory of anything that smacks as analytics was Earl Weaver from the Baltimore Orioles. Earl was famous for his card catalog of batters versus pitchers and him always trying out who had the most success against the current pitcher during a game.

likewise, Jim Palmer we talk about how it was OK to give up the occasional run, but at all costs and you were never to give up the three run homer.

if I’m not mistaken, the Baltimore orioles were the winningest team in baseball during the Earl Weaver years.

Yup.  And he managed all that data on 3" x 5" index cards!  He was brilliant, and he was an exceptional character.  Not an angry man at all, but he still managed to get ejected by umpires at a higher clip than probably anyone in that era.  He just knew when his team needed some inspiration, and he took advantage of questionable umpire calls as an excuse to get out there and get the Orioles fired up.  I don't know if he was the first guy to kick dirt onto home plate when arguing with umpires, but he certainly did it often.  He was also famous for getting in umpires faces and repeatedly head butting them in the forehead with the bill of his cap as he argued.  There were numerous times where he did that and the ump told him to stop or else, and then he would just give his cap a 180 and continue with his tirade like it was perfectly natural.  

I also can't tell you how many times he'd end up on the mound late in a game when Jim Palmer was pitching.  They were clearly arguing about whether Palmer should be replaced or not.  The funny thing was that 95% of the time it was Palmer telling Weaver he was done and Weaver saying 'no you're not'.  

He used to do a short segment for radio called Manager's Corner.  The link below was not actually broadcasted, but it'll give you an idea of how funny this guy was.  

edit - link below has vulgar language and un-PC commentary.  

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by BagBoy

[Radar]

He was quite a manager. How many games did he get elected from? Great manager.

[ubkev]

The best coach vs umpire altercation of all time? NSFW

 

 

[Eleven]

11 hours ago, ubkev said:

The best coach vs umpire altercation of all time? NSFW

 

 

That ump was actually very funny.

[ubkev]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

That ump was actually very funny.

He was great! My friends and I have been quoting him for years.

[apuszczalowski]

On 5/30/2021 at 12:37 AM, SDS said:

My earliest memory of anything that smacks as analytics was Earl Weaver from the Baltimore Orioles. Earl was famous for his card catalog of batters versus pitchers and him always trying out who had the most success against the current pitcher during a game.

likewise, Jim Palmer we talk about how it was OK to give up the occasional run, but at all costs and you were never to give up the three run homer.

if I’m not mistaken, the Baltimore orioles were the winningest team in baseball during the Earl Weaver years.

That sounds more like just good coaching

When I think analytics, I'm thinking about how guys like Charlie Montoya ruin games by pulling their starter whos been doing great all game just because the other team is starting through their lineup a 3rd time, or having no one in the bullpen warming up until 'your best reliever' just walked the bases loaded in the last inning of a 1 run ball game while your bullpen didn't pitch the day before because of a rainout, you used up 2 relievers in the first half of a double header earlier in the day when the starter could have gone longer, and you have a day off the next day (before playing 2 games before your next day off)

Sorry, didn't really have much to do with analytics or your comment, just wanted to complain about Montoya.......

[Flashsabre]

4 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

That sounds more like just good coaching

When I think analytics, I'm thinking about how guys like Charlie Montoya ruin games by pulling their starter whos been doing great all game just because the other team is starting through their lineup a 3rd time, or having no one in the bullpen warming up until 'your best reliever' just walked the bases loaded in the last inning of a 1 run ball game while your bullpen didn't pitch the day before because of a rainout, you used up 2 relievers in the first half of a double header earlier in the day when the starter could have gone longer, and you have a day off the next day (before playing 2 games before your next day off)

Sorry, didn't really have much to do with analytics or your comment, just wanted to complain about Montoya.......

You are right but I don’t think it is Charlie. I think it is coming straight from Atkins on how to handle the pitching staff.

[sabremike]

On 5/28/2021 at 5:15 PM, #freejame said:

Baseball isn’t destroying itself with analytics. Rob Manfred is destroying baseball. Analytics are why there’s all the great young talent there is today. 

Analytics is the reason that if Mario Mendoza was playing today he'd probably win the batting title. My other line is that Dave Kingman would win the triple crown.

[#freejame]

4 hours ago, sabremike said:

Analytics is the reason that if Mario Mendoza was playing today he'd probably win the batting title. My other line is that Dave Kingman would win the triple crown.

These are just bad takes that don’t follow the sport enough. Batting averages are lower this season due to a variety of factors primarily related to the physical ball itself. Three true outcomes have increased strikeout rate,  it that is so far down the list of actual issues facing the game. The issues created by Manfred are far more damaging and occur far more often. 

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, #freejame said:

These are just bad takes that don’t follow the sport enough. Batting averages are lower this season due to a variety of factors primarily related to the physical ball itself. Three true outcomes have increased strikeout rate,  it that is so far down the list of actual issues facing the game. The issues created by Manfred are far more damaging and occur far more often. 

Can you elaborate?