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It's time to trade Ristolainen.


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The team actually gets worse with Him on the ice. 

He has the lowest Expected Goals per 60 minutes out of all the defenseman and this includes Matt Irwin and Brandon Davidson. The only player worse then Him on the team is Cody Eakin. 

The Opponents Expected Goals increases when he is on the ice.  Matt Irwin is only defenseman worse than him in this regard. 

In interest of full disclosure out Borgen is the closest to Risto in terms of offensive metrics, but defends much better.  Also compare their AAV's 

Dahlin is the closest in terms of defensive metrics  but has much better offensive metrics.

If you expose Him to Seattle and He is selected that's 5.4 Million in free cap space. They might select him and trade him with salary retained and yes the Sabres should try to do the same, if the Front Office lowers the asking price that is. (That's from Dreger) 

Try to re sign McCabe.  Target Oleksiak or Adam Larsson as UFAs. Both have better metrics. 

Or go Big and try to sign Dougie Hamilton, which would give the Sabres A True Stanley Cup Contender Level Top Pairing in Dahlin and Hamilton.

Call teams that have shown interest in him, such as Columbus and Winnipeg, both teams do not have 3 defenseman worth protecting. 

Can They Get a Goalie from Columbus? Would a Middle Six Forward such as Copp and Appleton be the return for Risto?

 

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2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Also hits... lmfao. What a worthless stat. 

Yes, and faceoffs don't matter. (They especially didn't matter when there was one second on a penalty 5 on 3 in our own zone)

Yes indeed, hits don't matter. Let's make this team even softer. Let's skate and concentrate on our edges. maybe we need to draft guys who can do triple salcows only?

It's been time to trade Risto for years and I'm not against it (especially if it's before the expansion draft and we can protect Borgen) but I am very against taking any toughness or push back from this soft team. We need to add to it, not take it away. 

If I were management I'd offer him a contract extension that pays him to be a second pairing D man and if he doesn't want it, ya, trade him, cause he will walk in a year anyway.

 

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Have we not learned anything these past few years?? Who are we going to choose to blame for our horrific record after Risto is gone? The blame for this team falls squarely on the Front Office and not ANY of the players. You don't trade Risto until someone else wants Risto more than you do. We've wasted plenty of draft choices on vets who were destined to save us, ROR, Kane, Hall, Stall, Bogosian, Fedun, Miller, Montour & Scandella. 

ROR Stanley Cup Winner, Captain and #1C on a playoff team, Kane leading his team in points and goals, Hall suddenly has resurrected his career with the Bruins #2 line, Stall playing for a playoff team, Bogosian won a cup with Tampa and was playing on top team in North Division, Scandella playing for St. Louis, Fedun yes freaking Fedun played on Dallas' Stanley cup finalist team, Miller came from Vegas, Montour now on a Florida playoff team AND who do we have on the roster to show for all those guys on playoff teams, Bjork and Thompson. Who most of this board wouldn't give a rats behind if we didn't protect them in the expansion draft. 

And now you want to trade Risto with that historical record of assets gained by this team's Front Office?? Please just stop this non-sense. This team is where we should have been 5 years ago by playing the young guys and letting them learn on the fly until you can make a decision on who to add and subtract going forward, you don't sign high dollar players in free agency until you know you're ready to compete. At the very least get something of equal value back for the asset when traded. I don't trust this team to do it.

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4 hours ago, rakish said:

It would be nice to know if Seattle has the opportunity to take him, this is why I find the expansion draft unfulfilling.

As for my view on Risto, to paraphrase Homer Simpson, Risto is neither the cause of, nor the solution to, the problems of the BS.

He’s getting the ROR treatment 

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58 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The team actually gets worse with Him on the ice. 

He has the lowest Expected Goals per 60 minutes out of all the defenseman and this includes Matt Irwin and Brandon Davidson. The only player worse then Him on the team is Cody Eakin. 

The Opponents Expected Goals increases when he is on the ice.  Matt Irwin is only defenseman worse than him in this regard. 

In interest of full disclosure out Borgen is the closest to Risto in terms of offensive metrics, but defends much better.  Also compare their AAV's 

Dahlin is the closest in terms of defensive metrics  but has much better offensive metrics.

If you expose Him to Seattle and He is selected that's 5.4 Million in free cap space. They might select him and trade him with salary retained and yes the Sabres should try to do the same, if the Front Office lowers the asking price that is. (That's from Dreger) 

Try to re sign McCabe.  Target Oleksiak or Adam Larsson as UFAs. Both have better metrics. 

Or go Big and try to sign Dougie Hamilton, which would give the Sabres A True Stanley Cup Contender Level Top Pairing in Dahlin and Hamilton.

Call teams that have shown interest in him, such as Columbus and Winnipeg, both teams do not have 3 defenseman worth protecting. 

Can They Get a Goalie from Columbus? Would a Middle Six Forward such as Copp and Appleton be the return for Risto?

 

I’d love to see the other’s numbers if they were forced into picking up Risto’s minutes. They’d probably look about the same,... until they got injured, then their replacement’s numbers would be worse.

Our problem is the forwards. Period. And it has been ever since that which shall not be named. I mean, does anyone really think that an 18 year old Grigorenko should have ever seen ice time?!

Trading Risto does nothing to make us better in any meaningful way.

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If you want to shake up the core, you should begin with Ristolainen.  He was badly harmed by not getting a year or two in Rochester to improve his hockey sense.  I think his experiences here will have him bolt if he is here through his UFA, so I would trade him in the off-season.  He was effectively set-up to fail in Buffalo and his career never recovered.  Look at how Johann Larsson and Zemgus Girgensons had to re-invent themselves after being similarly harmed.

IMHO, as the Sabres are constructed now, they need a couple of older and wiser heads on the D.  Think Darryl Shannon or James Patrick.  There is a lot of NHL-ready youth whom I want to have mentored properly before they get harmed like Ristolainen was.  (Take a look at Nikita Zadorov's trajectory for an eerily similar result.)

We who think we should move him must understand that he will probably be put into a better position to succeed on his new team and is likely to perform much better than he did here.  "I told you so," is something which we are likely to hear a lot of for a few years.

IMHO, there is no chance that Seattle takes Ristolainen if he is unprotected.  Defencemen who are as effective he is cost less and many will be exposed.  The few who are in his price range and are likely to be exposed are better than he is.  Heck, as an expansion GM, if I had to choose either Ristolainen or Miller from the Sabres, I would take Miller and not have any second thoughts.

Aside: we who are more numbers driven should understand why we sometimes look stoooooopid.  The non-hockey people at fivethirtyeight.com have Jack Eichel as one of the worst players in the league based on underperformance this season, as if his neck injury had nothing to do with it.

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I think the Kraken would take Risto ahead of Miller, Borgen, Asplund or TT, unless they thought that they could get a star-level player in FA and accordingly didn’t want Risto’s cap hit.  

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Let's assume that we trade Risto for a physical middle six winger, Miller is taken in the expansion draft, and McCabe walks as an UFA.

Your returning D group is (age when next season begins)

1) Dahlin - 21 - 193 games of NHL experience

2) Jokiharju - 22 - 149 games of NHL experience

3) Bryson - 23 - 34 games of NHL experience

4) Borgen - 24 - 13 games of NHL experience

5) Samuelsson - 21 - 8 games of NHL experience

I like a youth movement possibly more then anyone here, but even this is to far for me.  Samuelsson isn't ready and IMHO Bryson and Borgen are nothing more at this point then a 3rd pairing.  This team would then need to acquire two or three veteran D.  My guess is we won't be anyone's first choice to come as a UFA and a trade would like cost us all the assets received in the Ristolainen trade.  How is this a step forward?   

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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1 hour ago, jsb said:

At the very least get something of equal value back for the asset when traded. I don't trust this team to do it.

The problem is, getting equal value back for him means getting not much....many of us feel that way. Again, he has the pure 'talent' of a very good hockey player (skating, hitting, shooting) but when it comes to how he plays the game...his positioning, his decision making....many of us think he is a bad hockey player...and a major reason (not the only one but a big one) as to why this team has been bad for a while.

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1 hour ago, SwampD said:

I’d love to see the other’s numbers if they were forced into picking up Risto’s minutes. They’d probably look about the same,... until they got injured, then their replacement’s numbers would be worse.

Our problem is the forwards. Period. And it has been ever since that which shall not be named. I mean, does anyone really think that an 18 year old Grigorenko should have ever seen ice time?!

Trading Risto does nothing to make us better in any meaningful way.

We are actually seeing this now, Risto’s Ice Time has been reduced below Dahlin, Jokiharju and sometimes Bryson. We will have to see how it bears out 

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1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I think the Kraken would take Risto ahead of Miller, Borgen, Asplund or TT, unless they thought that they could get a star-level player in FA and accordingly didn’t want Risto’s cap hit.  

Why do you think that?

Miller I get, he’s kind of similar to Risto, but not quite as good, and a little cheaper.

But they may want a younger asset who they have control of for several years, as opposed to Risto for just one season.

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32 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Let's assume that we trade Risto for a physical middle six winger, Miller is taken in the expansion draft, and McCabe walks as an UFA.

Your returning D group is (age when next season begins)

1) Dahlin - 21 - 193 games of NHL experience

yuh2) Jokiharju - 22 - 149 games of NHL experience

3) Bryson - 23 - 34 games of NHL experience

4) Borgen - 24 - 13 games of NHL experience

5) Samuelsson - 21 - 8 games of NHL experience

I like a youth movement possibly more then anyone here, but even this is to far for me.  Samuelsson isn't ready and IMHO Bryson and Borgen are nothing more at this point then a 3rd pairing.  This team would then need to acquire two or three veteran D.  My guess is we won't be anyone's first choice to come as a UFA and a trade would like cost us all the assets received in the Ristolainen trade.  How is this a step forward?   

Let us hope that our hires from now until FA are sound in scouting, management, and probably coaching as well.  Even if not...

Unlike other teams, I am not looking for ultra-dynamic defencemen for our youngsters.  I am looking for types who are analogous to Darryl Shannon / James Patrick when we got them.  Based on what I have seen, teams are more willing to move them for more potential or more dynamic players.  And they are unlikely to be signed the first day of FA as well.

I would move Ristolainen for an older but sound defencive defenceman who is less valuable to the other team than he would be for us and a middling pick.  Then I would try to use that pick and one of the surfeit of others we have to pick up a similar defenceman.  That gives me, I hope, 2 reliable, sage defencemen.

In FA, I figure there will be at least one Steve Montador type out there.  Might I have to pay them $500k more than other teams?  Probably.  I expect to get 1 or 2 guys this way.  Maybe there is a Tim Horton who wants to be paid for the practises, but will play the games for free.

I expect this nets use 2-3 guys for the youngsters to learn from and help cover up their mistakes.  Ideally, that would give me 3 veterans with my 5 youngsters, which make this team 8 deep with NHL-level and NHL-ready defencemen.  After 2005-6, that is my requirement for any season.

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3 hours ago, jsb said:

Have we not learned anything these past few years?? Who are we going to choose to blame for our horrific record after Risto is gone? The blame for this team falls squarely on the Front Office and not ANY of the players. You don't trade Risto until someone else wants Risto more than you do. We've wasted plenty of draft choices on vets who were destined to save us, ROR, Kane, Hall, Stall, Bogosian, Fedun, Miller, Montour & Scandella. 

ROR Stanley Cup Winner, Captain and #1C on a playoff team, Kane leading his team in points and goals, Hall suddenly has resurrected his career with the Bruins #2 line, Stall playing for a playoff team, Bogosian won a cup with Tampa and was playing on top team in North Division, Scandella playing for St. Louis, Fedun yes freaking Fedun played on Dallas' Stanley cup finalist team, Miller came from Vegas, Montour now on a Florida playoff team AND who do we have on the roster to show for all those guys on playoff teams, Bjork and Thompson. Who most of this board wouldn't give a rats behind if we didn't protect them in the expansion draft. 

And now you want to trade Risto with that historical record of assets gained by this team's Front Office?? Please just stop this non-sense. This team is where we should have been 5 years ago by playing the young guys and letting them learn on the fly until you can make a decision on who to add and subtract going forward, you don't sign high dollar players in free agency until you know you're ready to compete. At the very least get something of equal value back for the asset when traded. I don't trust this team to do it.

Peter Chiarelli offered Taylor Hall in June 2016 for Risto straight up, Murray said no.

Kevin Cheveldayoff Offered Ehlers and Mason Appleton for Risto, Asplund and a 2nd Round Pick in August 2019 Botterill said no.

Hall had 208 points in 211 games for the Devils and won the Hart Trophy.

Risto had 162 points in 299 games during the same period

Ehlers had 104 points in 118 games for the Jets 

Risto had 47 points in 114 games during the same period. 
 

Since the other two are forwards, I added their RAPM Charts which show Actual Goals For, Expected Goals For, Corsi For, Actual Goals Against and expected goals against. The more purple bars there are the better. 
 

Two consecutive GMs allowed an asset to depreciate, while spurning trades for better players. 


ROR said I lost My Love for the Game at times in April 2018 and is traded. 

Risto talks about never playing on a winning team and having no idea what it feels like and wouldn’t be surprised if he was traded and yet he is still here. 
 

Trading ROR is by far the worse move this franchise has made in the past five years. 
 

But sometimes the trades a team doesn’t make are devastating as well. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, SwampD said:

Trading Risto does nothing to make us better in any meaningful way.

Trading Chris Gratton, Rhett Warrener or Stephane Beauregard is not what made us better in a meaningful way.

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3 hours ago, jsb said:

Have we not learned anything these past few years?? Who are we going to choose to blame for our horrific record after Risto is gone? The blame for this team falls squarely on the Front Office and not ANY of the players. You don't trade Risto until someone else wants Risto more than you do. We've wasted plenty of draft choices on vets who were destined to save us, ROR, Kane, Hall, Stall, Bogosian, Fedun, Miller, Montour & Scandella. 

Exactly. Which is why it's time for radical change. You do not ditch anybody drafted in the last 3 years but you clean house from all the players that have been mired in this nonsense for years. Create a whole new culture and a whole new team attitude that no longer pampers anybody. No longer tolerates failure. No longer makes excuses. No longer apologizes for failures, just strives for excellence where hard work and effort is rewarded and the opposite is not tolerated. 

I'm not suggesting Risto is the goat for any of this and no one player is, but this team needs to be about team and the past has to go. 

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I wonder about how we know these deals were offered and turned down. Sorry but I'm skeptical regardless of "inside" sources.

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This thread is the political thread.  Everybody has their side and no one is changing anyone’s minds.  Why even bother with this discussion?  I think a poll would be far better served for this type of discussion possibly opening the eyes of some who think they are in the majority. 

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14 minutes ago, inkman said:

This thread is the political thread.  Everybody has their side and no one is changing anyone’s minds.  Why even bother with this discussion?  I think a poll would be far better served for this type of discussion possibly opening the eyes of some who think they are in the majority. 

I disagree but you’re right.

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19 minutes ago, inkman said:

This thread is the political thread.  Everybody has their side and no one is changing anyone’s minds.  Why even bother with this discussion?  I think a poll would be far better served for this type of discussion possibly opening the eyes of some who think they are in the majority. 

True, but then again, I like reading what people who disagree with me think.  Even if I don't change my mind, I still probably learnt something.  Also, I think it is useful to know what the reaction to different ideas would be.  It is why I am so verbose when I try to explain my position and its disadvantages.

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3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Let's assume that we trade Risto for a physical middle six winger, Miller is taken in the expansion draft, and McCabe walks as an UFA.

Your returning D group is (age when next season begins)

1) Dahlin - 21 - 193 games of NHL experience

2) Jokiharju - 22 - 149 games of NHL experience

3) Bryson - 23 - 34 games of NHL experience

4) Borgen - 24 - 13 games of NHL experience

5) Samuelsson - 21 - 8 games of NHL experience

I like a youth movement possibly more then anyone here, but even this is to far for me.  Samuelsson isn't ready and IMHO Bryson and Borgen are nothing more at this point then a 3rd pairing.  This team would then need to acquire two or three veteran D.  My guess is we won't be anyone's first choice to come as a UFA and a trade would like cost us all the assets received in the Ristolainen trade.  How is this a step forward?   

Well, I suppose if the d-man we trade the assets for is better than Ristolainen 

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Look at it this way.....there is little risk in dealing him, In what direction would we head in the standings? Down? We can't get any lower...🙄 

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Trade him for a goaltender that another team cannot protect like Kuemper of Arizona.  Arizona has 4 UFA defensemen, they are gonna need some replacements.  Resign Ullmark after the expansion draft.  Use Risto's slot to protect one of the young Dmen.

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6 hours ago, Norcal said:

If nothing changes, nothing is going to change. That simple. Some of these guys have to go. 

Agree.  I would be shipping out the senior players that only know losing.  Yes,  that means almost everyone is tradable for the right offer.  

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