Buffalo Bills 2023 Thread

[Marvin]

Disclosure: I worked for the Dole-Kemp campaign in 1996.  He and Dole were different from the people in their party now.

[PASabreFan]

7 hours ago, Marvin said:

Disclosure: I worked for the Dole-Kemp campaign in 1996.  He and Dole were different from the people in their party now.

Today they would be called leftists.

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 hours ago, Marvin said:

Disclosure: I worked for the Dole-Kemp campaign in 1996.  He and Dole were different from the people in their party now.

 

32 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Today they would be called leftists.

I hate talking politics here as this is not what this forum is for and I wish that people would leave their politics in the thread it belongs in.  

That said, no they wouldn’t be leftists.  Dole would be a big government moderate and Jack would be a conservative.  He would be correctly dead set against all of Biden’s economic policies.  

I knew Jack all of my life.  My father and he were close friends and I worked for Jack when he was HUD Secretary.  

 

[Night Train]

14 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Allen is the most talented, but he's not the best QB until he starts winning more playoff games.

 Those TEAMS as a whole were far better than these Bills teams. Not even close in overall talent level. 

 Plus the AFC was weak overall,  back in those 4 SB years. I can remember beating Denver 10-7 in the AFC title game on a Carlton Bailey INT return for the only TD.  Not every playoff win was 51-3, a week after Bo Jackson was permanently done. 

 Kelly is the most successful QB. Kemp played well here the first 3-4 years here before the team aged and sank to the bottom. 

 Allen is the most talented by a mile and needs a better roster around him.

[MattPie]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

IF the Bills win out, they are nearly a lock for the playoffs at this point.

It looks like the teams ahead of Buffalo have 18 games total remaining between them (including KC's and Baltimore's games) and not counting the Fishies Bills game.  There are 5 games between 2 of those teams (Cincy at KC, Cleveland at Cincy, Cleveland at Houston, Houston at Indy, and Miami at Baltimore).  

Saw a scenario laid out by Kevin Massare stating this was the only way for the Bills to win out and miss the playoffs.  

His scenario went:

Cincy beats Pittsburgh, KC, and Cleveland;

Cleveland beats Houston and Jest;

Indy beats Atlanta, Vegas, and Houston; 

Miami beats Dallas and Baltimore;

and Baltimore beats the 9ers or Pittsburgh.

Leaving Cincy, Cleveland, Indy, and Buffalo all at 11-6 with Baltimore and Miami ahead of that.  And presumably Buffalo loses all the tiebreakers.  But even with all those teams even with or ahead of Buffalo and KC doing whatever taking their division, the Bills still could still be in 7th.

BUT, Jax can also end up at 11-6 without playing any of those other teams and they beat Buffalo earlier.  IF that happens and all the rest of that occurred as well then that would make Buffalo the 8th seeded team missing the playoffs.  

Provided KC loses to Cincy, it doesn't matter what they'd do because they'd win their division or lose it to another team that would have fewer wins than the Bills that would then win the division.

But, if Buffalo wins out, there need to be 14 other games that all work against the Bills to keep them out of the playoffs.  And depending on who would have the tie breaker between Baltimore and the Bills, there might need to be 1 of 2 other games also working against the Bills.  (And, no, didn't bother to factor in the potential of ties.  Don't care THAT much about this stuff.)

So, it's close enough for government work to say, if the Bills win out they're in.

It's going to be such a shame when the team lays a giant turd and loses this week.

12 hours ago, Doohickie said:

You bring up an interesting point.  All time leading QB rushing touchdowns:

1. Cam Newton - 75 TD
2. Josh Allen - 49 TD
3. Steve Young - 43 TD
4. Jack Kemp - 40 TD

Considering the eras of the players above him involved, Kemp (and Tobin Rote 3 behind him) must have been something else considering no one else in the top-10 are played in that era.

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

I hate talking politics here as this is not what this forum is for and I wish that people would leave their politics in the thread it belongs in.  

That said, no they wouldn’t be leftists.  Dole would be a big government moderate and Jack would be a conservative.  He would be correctly dead set against all of Biden’s economic policies.  

I knew Jack all of my life.  My father and he were close friends and I worked for Jack when he was HUD Secretary.  

 

I only knew Kemp through my father and party business.  From what.I saw of him, you and your father were lucky people.  I recommend people find some of the old ESPN NFL history videos about Kemp, particularly the one about moving the AFL All-Star game.  Sometimes, politics and sports intersect and there is no avoiding it.  The more ambitious can read his political biography, which I believe is called _The Happy Warrior_.

I will riff on one of his jokes and say that I am glad that his biannual threat to be QB for the Bills turned into a great career.

[nfreeman]

12 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

It’s interesting how you tout McD as a good coach, but limit/ demerit Allen because he hasn’t won more playoff games. Has Allen been the problem aside from the Texans hero ball game that they lost in OT? I would be interested in your follow up…

11 hours ago, JujuFish said:

And nfreeman responded to comments about Allen being the best. There's a difference between "great" and "best".

27 minutes ago, Night Train said:

 Those TEAMS as a whole were far better than these Bills teams. Not even close in overall talent level. 

 Plus the AFC was weak overall,  back in those 4 SB years. I can remember beating Denver 10-7 in the AFC title game on a Carlton Bailey INT return for the only TD.  Not every playoff win was 51-3, a week after Bo Jackson was permanently done. 

 Kelly is the most successful QB. Kemp played well here the first 3-4 years here before the team aged and sank to the bottom. 

 Allen is the most talented by a mile and needs a better roster around him.

IMHO, McD and JA are both great, but need to win quite a few more playoff games before they displace Marv and Jimbo.

Jimbo was 9-8 in the playoffs.  JA is 4-4.  Five more playoff wins is meaningful IMHO.

I don't agree that the Marv-Kelly teams were a juggernaut, other than the 1990 team that lost to the Giants in the SB, although it is true that there was no opponent on the level every year of Mahomes' Chiefs.  Still, they had to beat Elway's Broncos, Marino's Dolphins, Montana's Chiefs and Moon's Oilers.

And while JA has had some scintillating playoff performances, he's also had not great outings vs Houston in 2019, Baltimore in 2020 and both Miami and Cincy last year.

Only one can be the best.  At this point IMHO it's still Marv and Jimbo.

[carpandean]

23 hours ago, Taro T said:

You expect Miami to finally win a game against an opponent that's above 0.500 for the 1st time since the heat stroke/Tua "ankle" injury game?  Why?

Fair enough.  Maybe they won't ... but maybe we go 1-1 ... then the winner of game 17 hosts a playoff game, while the loser (likely) misses the playoffs. 😲

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, carpandean said:

Fair enough.  Maybe they won't ... but maybe we go 1-1 ... then the winner of game 17 hosts a playoff game, while the loser (likely) misses the playoffs. 😲

Presuming Buffalo has made up one or both games the Fishies currently have on them through week 17, then the week 18 game WILL be for the division.  The ONLY way it isn't is if the Fishies still have at least a 2 game (well, a game and a half technically, but nobody expects a tie) lead over the Bills.

Wasn't questioning that the game would be for the division.  Was merely questioning why you'd expected the Fishies could finally beat a winning opponent.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Taro T

[mjd1001]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, McD and JA are both great, but need to win quite a few more playoff games before they displace Marv and Jimbo.

Jimbo was 9-8 in the playoffs.  JA is 4-4.  Five more playoff wins is meaningful IMHO.

I don't agree that the Marv-Kelly teams were a juggernaut, other than the 1990 team that lost to the Giants in the SB, although it is true that there was no opponent on the level every year of Mahomes' Chiefs.  Still, they had to beat Elway's Broncos, Marino's Dolphins, Montana's Chiefs and Moon's Oilers.

And while JA has had some scintillating playoff performances, he's also had not great outings vs Houston in 2019, Baltimore in 2020 and both Miami and Cincy last year.

Only one can be the best.  At this point IMHO it's still Marv and Jimbo.

I give it to Marv because, I can't really distinguish between the two....I think they both were very good, not great coaches. Marv has the better resume and he was probably a perfect 'fit for that team'.

As far as QB goes, I go with Allen.  I think Allen is top 3 in the league, and a CASE can be made for him being the best at times (maybe not a great case, but I'll at least listen to that argument).  Kelly, I never thought he was close to the best QB in the league at any time, and a few spots behind where I think Allen is compared to the rest of the league.  Maybe it's their 'ceiling' in my view.  When Allen has is BEST game, no one in the league is as good as him. Best game Josh Allen vs Best game Mahomes I might give that to Allen (in the Mahomes Vs Allen debate to me, the problem is Allen's best game might be better but, over the course of a season he has more average-to-bad games than Mahomes so Mahomes 'averages out' to be better than Allen).  Kelly on the other hand, Kelly's BEST game wasn't the best in the league. Marino at his best I thought was better than Kelly at his best..Randall Cunningham at his best equaled or beat Kelly at his best. Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre, all at their best were equal to or better than Kelly. Its just their teams may or may not have been better than the Bills of the time. Just my opinion.

Edited December 19, 2023 by mjd1001

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I give it to Marv because, I can't really distinguish between the two....I think they both were very good, not great coaches. Marv has the better resume and he was probably a perfect 'fit for that team'.

As far as QB goes, I go with Allen.  I think Allen is top 3 in the league, and a CASE can be made for him being the best at times (maybe not a great case, but I'll at least listen to that argument).  Kelly, I never thought he was close to the best QB in the league at any time, and a few spots behind where I think Allen is compared to the rest of the league.  Maybe it's their 'ceiling' in my view.  When Allen has is BEST game, no one in the league is as good as him. Best game Josh Allen vs Best game Mahomes I might give that to Allen (in the Mahomes Vs Allen debate to me, the problem is Allen's best game might be better but ove the course of a season he has more average-to-bad games than Mahomes so Mahomes 'averages out' to be better than Allen).  Kelly on the other hand, Kelly's BEST game wasn't the best in the league. Marino at his best I thought was better than Kelly at his best..Randall Cunningham at his best equaled or beat Kelly at his best. Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre, all at their best were equal to or better than Kelly. Its just their teams may or may not have been better than the Bills of the time. Just my opinion.

When evaluating Kelly, don't forget that he tore up his throwing shoulder pretty bad at the Pro Bowl after the '91 season.  IMHO, he was never the same after that.  

[shrader]

QB is a completely different position today than it was then. I hate having to make any historical comparisons like this. 

[K-9]

5 hours ago, Night Train said:

 Those TEAMS as a whole were far better than these Bills teams. Not even close in overall talent level. 

 Plus the AFC was weak overall,  back in those 4 SB years. I can remember beating Denver 10-7 in the AFC title game on a Carlton Bailey INT return for the only TD.  Not every playoff win was 51-3, a week after Bo Jackson was permanently done. 

 Kelly is the most successful QB. Kemp played well here the first 3-4 years here before the team aged and sank to the bottom. 

 Allen is the most talented by a mile and needs a better roster around him.

Per the bold, much of the talent acquired by those great Bills teams was because they sucked in the early-mid 80s and they had more premium picks in the draft as a result whereas Josh has been at a disadvantage in that regard because we’ve been a later drafting playoff team in four of his first five years in the league. It’s just more difficult to add premium players to an already successful team nowadays. 

23 minutes ago, shrader said:

QB is a completely different position today than it was then. I hate having to make any historical comparisons like this. 

It’s a good idea not to because comparing players across eras is inherently flawed. 

[Buffalonill]

Good luck tonight..

The football gods are Rewriting the history this is the bills 2021 season 

Now finish the chapter 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Buffalonill

[JujuFish]

And now the Bills officially control their own destiny again.

[Dreams Burn Down]

2 minutes ago, JujuFish said:

And now the Bills officially control their own destiny again.

Agreed.  This was the first time I can remember rooting for the Steelers.

[shrader]

Seeing the chargers listed as LAC, on the espn ap, I keep thinking the bills are playing the clippers. 

[Claude Balls]

Bills looking like trash against a garbage team.....again.

[Gatorman0519]

Bills better wake up or seasons over. New chargers coach schooling us so far. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Gatorman0519

[Dreams Burn Down]

Beautiful catch and run for TD by...Gabe Davis?!

[inkman]

Hope these losers get eliminated by the Chargers. 

Hey Dodson, you are losing to the Chargers.  Settle the ***** down when you make a TFL.  

[inkman]

All the media and fans checking this off as a “W” can ***** off and die. 

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, Dreams Burn Down said:

Beautiful catch and run for TD by...Gabe Davis?!

[Dreams Burn Down]

Another nice block by Dawkins on that TD.  Our running game is key going forward.

[Gatorman0519]

Nice adjustments. Get up another 10 points then pin back that pass rush on the backup.