IKnowPhysics Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Signing Miller to a big long contract is far from the worst move we can make here. We need *someone* to play in net, we've got plenty of cap space, and we've got plenty of other areas to improve. Trading him for peanuts would be a worse move. Letting him go UFA would be a worse move. Should we try to trade him? Hells yes. That's priority #1. Gather offers of return. If they all suck, throw a bunch of money at Miller guilt free, because at least you were able to retain an asset valuable to this organization. And don't fault Darcy for not trading him earlier. I've seen nothing that suggests the "market," the offers of return, were any better at any time previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think the problem with this was well pointed out by Tank that why would Miller resign with Buffalo if there is even a hint that he will be traded in a couple of years? Why wouldn't Miller say thanks but no thanks, I'll sign for big money on my terms in a couple of months. He could sign elsewhere and be traded too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabre snipe Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 its so frustrating to know that this all could have been avoided had Darcy just decided to trade him in the offseason. Even more frustrating that this was the obvious thing to do. Everyone here knew that once the season began his value was only going to diminish. Amazing we could get a first for Paul freaking Gaustad but may not even get as much for Miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 its so frustrating to know that this all could have been avoided had Darcy just decided to trade him in the offseason. Even more frustrating that this was the obvious thing to do. Everyone here knew that once the season began his value was only going to diminish. Amazing we could get a first for Paul freaking Gaustad but may not even get as much for Miller You know what's also frustrating? Being a pretty decent goalie on a team for years that has been blown up by your GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 the open market may not be as lucrative for Miller in summer, team with cap issues ect not necessarily going to be able to offer more than what Miller could sign with Buffalo now , he getting front loaded money now, it in the bank for he. There is only so much money available for him given the cap, Sabres could pay him now what he will get elsewhere via extended contract, be able to wait for better market and not trade him for nothing or at least him value. What is in it for Miller is he gets paid now, where waiting until summer no assurance he going to get paid the same. This on new general manager, does he get pressured to trade Miller for far less than his worth or find a way to sign him , giving team time for better return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 He could sign elsewhere and be traded too. He could but I would think that he knows if he signs with a contender it's much less likely than a bottom feeder who's appeared to have been dangling him for awhile now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 It's tantamout to saying "hey, I'm new here, so I'm going to set the tone by allowing you all to lowball me." Bad idea. I just don't think this is the time to try and play cute and make statements. You'll get laughed at. "Hey look at me, I'm not going to take your ###### offer St. Louis." Months later in July... "The St. Louis Blues are proud to announce the signing of Ryan Miller, who we gave nothing up to get..." Oh you got 'em Timmy. I think it's a lose-lose situation at this point. We accept a lowly 2nd round pick and maybe it appears Murray can be strong-armed, or, we tell the league to F and Miller walks for nothing...potentially fueling a perception that the new guy is no different than the old guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Great post. I would rather overpay Miller to avoid Goalie Purgatory than throw money at a player like Callahan. We can develop that player. Zemgus !!! I'd still sign callahan though, if he wants to play for the sabres, be at home and all that, he'll take 5.5 mill a year. Edited February 25, 2014 by Heimdall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabre snipe Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 You know what's also frustrating? Being a pretty decent goalie on a team for years that has been blown up by your GM. No arguing that I don't blame him one bit for wanting out if he truly does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Miller had a pretty subpar season last year. What makes people think that Darcy could have had any takers last year? Just because Darcy didn't trade Miller, doesn't mean he didn't try. He's gotten above and beyond maximum value for almost all his pending UFA's over the last couple of years, I doubt he was really to get low-balled for Miller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Does get down to with market as weak as it is presently , what would it take to get Miller to sign in Buffalo that would be mutually beneficial to both player and team. Owner agreeing to allow as much signing bonus as allowed under agreement and monies that make contract attractive to other teams, the Sabres in fact paying much of the burden, they in return get time for market to become better. For Miller he getting the money essentially guaranteed, where as free agent no such guarantee's . As talked for a long period on this forum new GM has his nuts in a vise, it on him to find best way out. They going to get ripped it just a matter of how much . Edited February 25, 2014 by millbank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Miller had a pretty subpar season last year. What makes people think that Darcy could have had any takers last year? Just because Darcy didn't trade Miller, doesn't mean he didn't try. He's gotten above and beyond maximum value for almost all his pending UFA's over the last couple of years, I doubt he was really to get low-balled for Miller. If the attitude was to maximize his value though, the offseason was the time to take whatever offer was available. As a GM it would be crazy to say "well I bet some contender team will need a goalie at the deadline so I'll get max value then!". There's a lot of things that need to happen to drive that demand, and those things haven't happened. He should have been traded during the summer if trading him was the goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 its so frustrating to know that this all could have been avoided had Darcy just decided to trade him in the offseason. Even more frustrating that this was the obvious thing to do. Everyone here knew that once the season began his value was only going to diminish. Amazing we could get a first for Paul freaking Gaustad but may not even get as much for Miller Snipe, there are plenty of other posters who have said this, but it needs to be rebutted. Bottom line is that nobody here has any idea what the trade market was like for Miller last summer. We should remember that last summer, Miller was an expensive, 33-year-old goalie with one year left on his contract and a wife in California, coming off a worse year last year than he's having this year, and in a league with much less cap space than there will be this coming summer. It's simply an unsupportable assumption to say that Darcy could have gotten more for Miller last summer than Murray will get for him at the deadline. the open market may not be as lucrative for Miller in summer, team with cap issues ect not necessarily going to be able to offer more than what Miller could sign with Buffalo now , he getting front loaded money now, it in the bank for he. There is only so much money available for him given the cap, Sabres could pay him now what he will get elsewhere via extended contract, be able to wait for better market and not trade him for nothing or at least him value. What is in it for Miller is he gets paid now, where waiting until summer no assurance he going to get paid the same. This on new general manager, does he get pressured to trade Miller for far less than his worth or find a way to sign him , giving team time for better return. From Miller's perspective, it's hard to see much risk in him going into FA this summer in a league with increasing cap space. There will inevitably be good teams who get bounced out of the playoffs earlier than expected due at least partially to crappy goaltending. He probably feels like he can see what's out there during the first week or so of FA and if there is nothing to his liking, he can re-sign with the Sabres. And he's probably right. I think it's a lose-lose situation at this point. We accept a lowly 2nd round pick and maybe it appears Murray can be strong-armed, or, we tell the league to F and Miller walks for nothing...potentially fueling a perception that the new guy is no different than the old guy. This is a reasonable concern, but I think it will largely be dispelled if Murray does well in trading Ott, Moulson, etc. Everyone knows the trade market is dictated by supply and demand, and everyone knows the demand for Miller will be low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'm still cautiously optimistic that this will work out. Sky hasn't fallen yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) If the attitude was to maximize his value though, the offseason was the time to take whatever offer was available. As a GM it would be crazy to say "well I bet some contender team will need a goalie at the deadline so I'll get max value then!". There's a lot of things that need to happen to drive that demand, and those things haven't happened. He should have been traded during the summer if trading him was the goal. So if the best offer that came his way during the off-season was a 2nd round pick, everybody would have been good with that? Nobody knows what kind of offers he got. And if the only offers he got were low the best bet would have been to wait until the season started to find a contender that lost their starter due to injury. As I said, Darcy was damn good at getting maximum return in his trades, somehow I just don't think he blew off any major Miller deal. Edited February 25, 2014 by JJFIVEOH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 So if the best offer that came his way during the off-season was a 2nd round pick, everybody would have been good with that? I would have set the arena on fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Theres always risks for both the player and the GMs. The problem with Darcy was that he always wanted to be the obvious genius in the deal, he would never take a chance to move someone if he didn't end up as the winner of the deal right away. No one knows what offers were presented during the summer, or last deadline. DR could have sat there and said that it wasn't enough for him and he would wait til the market picks up again at the deadline. But you take a risk because you could end up with other teams that come out and decide they want to move a goalie also, or teams that end up not needing to bring in someone from outside. At teh start of the season, teams that you thought were looking may find they don't need one, while others that appeared solid might need someone. For Miller, he could get a Henrik offer from the Sabres and decide to re-sign or take his chance in FA. He could end up in a FA market where a few options come in and flood the market weaking his bargaining. Right now you have a team like the Canes who can screw the market up by putting Cam Ward out there on the table because Khudobbin (the backup goalie they signed in the offseason) has stepped up in Wards abscence has taken over and played better. A team interested in Miller may now look at the Canes and find they would get a better deal and feel comfortable enough in Ward that they can win with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Theres always risks for both the player and the GMs. The problem with Darcy was that he always wanted to be the obvious genius in the deal, he would never take a chance to move someone if he didn't end up as the winner of the deal right away. No one knows what offers were presented during the summer, or last deadline. DR could have sat there and said that it wasn't enough for him and he would wait til the market picks up again at the deadline. But you take a risk because you could end up with other teams that come out and decide they want to move a goalie also, or teams that end up not needing to bring in someone from outside. At teh start of the season, teams that you thought were looking may find they don't need one, while others that appeared solid might need someone. For Miller, he could get a Henrik offer from the Sabres and decide to re-sign or take his chance in FA. He could end up in a FA market where a few options come in and flood the market weaking his bargaining. Right now you have a team like the Canes who can screw the market up by putting Cam Ward out there on the table because Khudobbin (the backup goalie they signed in the offseason) has stepped up in Wards abscence has taken over and played better. A team interested in Miller may now look at the Canes and find they would get a better deal and feel comfortable enough in Ward that they can win with him. I agree, good point about Cam Ward. For the last year and a half people have been salivating about the huge return that Miller was going to bring, and since nothing happened everybody wants to place blame on Darcy. There is a reason big name goaltenders don't get moved via trade; it's because goaltender is a high risk position. D-men and forwards are low risk. If a team trades draft picks and/or prospects for a big name forward/D-man and said forward/D-man gets hurt, the rest of the team can pick up the slack. If a team trades draft picks and/or prospects for a big name goaltender and said goaltender blows out his knee the first game of the season, their season is done and so is some of their future. Now let's throw in the fact that Miller last year had a very pedestrian season, not to mention the fact that he is aging............ no sane GM would have given up anything substantial for Miller. Even though he's had a great season this year, the fact that he is now a pending UFA negates all that. He wasn't worth anything last year, he's not worth anything now. It wasn't Darcy's fault that Miller is still here. The only way Miller was to get dealt is/was a Cup contending team loses thier #1 goaltender and a GM goes into desperation mode and if I had to bet, that's what Darcy was waiting for. The only exception I can think of where a big name goaltender got moved recently was Cory Schneider. That is a unique situation because it didn't put the Devils at risk because they already had a goaltender that could play 55-60 if Schneider got hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) You know what's also frustrating? Being a pretty decent goalie on a team for years that has been blown up by your GM. Yeah, but chz, the reason the team had to be blown up is that he and the rest of the core were only pretty decent. MIller's sleeping in a bed now he helped to mess up. Edited February 25, 2014 by PASabreFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Should we try to trade him? Hells yes. That's priority #1. Gather offers of return. If they all suck, throw a bunch of money at Miller guilt free, because at least you were able to retain an asset valuable to this organization. How can you be so sure it would be guilt-free? Doesn't Murray have to be looking down the road at what a big contract like that would look like when the team might be back in contention? My other thought is that commiting Lundqvist type money, or more, to Miller means you are building the team a certain way — from the goal out. That's a critical strategic decision and not one that should be born out of, "Oh, what the hell, we need a goalie, and we have gobs of money." Making that commitment to Dom made sense; Miller isn't Hasek. He's not Lundqvist. He's not even Enroth. (Joke.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Not so sure about Ward. He's been injury prone, costs the same as Miller and isn't as good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 How can you be so sure it would be guilt-free? Doesn't Murray have to be looking down the road at what a big contract like that would look like when the team might be back in contention? My other thought is that commiting Lundqvist type money, or more, to Miller means you are building the team a certain way — from the goal out. That's a critical strategic decision and not one that should be born out of, "Oh, what the hell, we need a goalie, and we have gobs of money." Making that commitment to Dom made sense; Miller isn't Hasek. He's not Lundqvist. He's not even Enroth. (Joke.) Yep, I agree with pretty much all of that. I don't want this big Miller decision (assuming there is even a decision which I doubt very much based on Millers attitude towards resigning) coming down to well we could only get a 2nd round pick rather than a 1st so let's lock him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Not so sure about Ward. He's been injury prone, costs the same as Miller and isn't as good. Cup winner ........... NS heads for the hills!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 No way the Hurricanes move Cam Ward... His backup is under 6'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Yep, I agree with pretty much all of that. I don't want this big Miller decision (assuming there is even a decision which I doubt very much based on Millers attitude towards resigning) coming down to well we could only get a 2nd round pick rather than a 1st so let's lock him up. What some are proposing really isn't logical. "Well, let's try and trade Miller and if we can't, Plan B is throw filthy money at him." They represent two totally different directions for the franchise and I'm convinced TM isn't thinking this way. You could have something like, "Let's make it look like we're trying to trade Miller, but not really" in a gambit to get him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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