The "trial" of Terry Pegula

[WildCard]

Well, for one thing, you appear to have convinced yourself that I want to de-fund libraries.  Not the case at all.

 

Nor do I want to de-fund the Philharmonic, for example.  I assure you that I go to many more BPO concerts (2-3 per year) than Bills games (about 1 every five years).

 

I just don't understand why professional sports teams, which are as much a part of the cultural landscape as professional theatre troupes (actually, much, much more a part of the cultural landscape) should receive no funding at all, as if they didn't benefit the community at all.

 

But I'll also say this much:  I'm unwilling to continue the dialogue until you can calm down.

I haven't read all of this, so forgive me if it's been answered, but the key difference to me seems to be that an individual/company profits (monetarily) from one and not the other. 

[Weave]

We're up to meltdowns every 3 days now.  Nice.

[Eleven]

I haven't read all of this, so forgive me if it's been answered, but the key difference to me seems to be that an individual/company profits (monetarily) from one and not the other. 

 

Ok, so if the Irish Classical Theatre Company cannot exist on its own--in other words, if there is not enough demand for that form of entertainment to allow it to exist on its own--we should subsidize it, but not subsidize something that is vastly more popular?

 

Frankly, I don't think we need to make that choice.  And I remember Collins's "red budget" that stripped culturals of funding for years--those weren't good years.

 

And then consider this:  What about a shelter that takes 20 youth off of the streets each year but receives absolutely no county funding because the money is going to the Ujima Dance Company instead?

Edited December 15, 2015 by eleven

[WildCard]

Ok, so if the Irish Classical Theatre Company cannot exist on its own--in other words, if there is not enough demand for that form of entertainment to allow it to exist on its own--we should subsidize it?

Kinda took that in the opposite way of what I was thinking. More so if the ICTC was doing so well on its own, it should stop receiving funds because an individual can fund it

[nfreeman]

I don't give a ###### about the other "cultural institutions" you listed. You arrogant son of bitch. Libraries provide classic literature, modern literature, computers, information specialists, and tons of information for people who would otherwise not have access to it. How the ###### is a out of work father of 4 supose to get a job, well he could go to the library and read a ###### book about and teach himself a new skill.  Or he could use the library computers because he can't afford one. But wait I am sorry it is just a "cultural institution" for entertainment.

 

It isn't and never has been. A libraries primary function is to provide information and resources to ppl who need it. You think reading a ###### romance novel isn't good for someone? why? Reading skills and critical thinking are developed by reading just about anything. I read every night and that has helped me countless times in my life.  What about children reading times when small kids may only have 1 time a day where they are read anything or even have a chance to read themselves? Just entertainment I guess educating those children and opening up the literal world to them.

 

Football and libraries. What you just said is the most insanely idiotic thing I have ever ###### heard. At no point in your ###### response did you utter anything I could even consider an actual thought. I award you no ###### points and go enjoy spending millions on football when there is an institution that helps more people and can be shown to enrich the lives and help citizens remove themselves from poverty that serves the same entertainment function.

 

How dare you. And no I will not apologize or edit out the swearing because honestly I am pissed off at that neanderthal type of response.

 

Good day sir. I said good day.

 

 

Dude!

 

Time to chill out for a bit.

[WildCard]

Apparently things like "reading" and "knowing information" makes one comparable to a domestic terrorist. Who knew? 

To be fair the Unabomber was brilliant; I still blame Harvard for him

[Eleven]

Kinda took that in the opposite way of what I was thinking. More so if the ICTC was doing so well on its own, it should stop receiving funds because an individual can fund it

 

I got your meaning the first time, but see what happens when you flip it around?  It becomes a situation where we are willing to devote more dollars to forms of entertainment that are enjoyed by fewer people.  

 

Personally, I think theatre and music and art and detective stories are important and should be funded.  I'm not sure that's a universal sentiment.

[SwampD]

eleven, you have a great take on this and I totally agree with everything you've said.

 

Liger, let me guess, the new GF wants to wait 'til she's married.

[PromoTheRobot]

I will say this PA. When I see how much wealth Pegula has, it makes me furious to think the city of Buffalo and county of Erie would use tax payer dollars to fund a new NFL stadium. He's a Billionaire, let him pay for it himself. Use tax money to actually help people or upgrade Buffalo's infrastructure like the telecoms. We could probably run fiber to every corner of Erie county with 500 million bucks to spend.

 

Let the billionaires build their own s#!t and stop stealing more money from the poor people of the county.

When has Pegula asked for state money for a stadium? If anything I heard Pegula and Jeremy Jacobs will privately fund a stadium. The state will, however, have to kick in some road and infrastructure improvements.

[MattPie]

When has Pegula asked for state money for a stadium? If anything I heard Pegula and Jeremy Jacobs will privately fund a stadium. The state will, however, have to kick in some road and infrastructure improvements.

General question: when a dollar-figure gets bandied around, do tax rebates / breaks get included in that number? If Buffalo/Erie County give the new stadium what amounts to, say, $100M in tax breaks and $300M in cash, does that get reported as $400M?

[That Aud Smell]

In terms of actually contributing cash, I see things a little differently than you two appear to, but I also don't think it's as cut and dry as the tax break situation, which is the norm in New York State.

 

The city, and, moreso, the county and the state, contribute to numerous cultural organizations, including theaters, dance companies, musical companies, libraries, galleries, museums, the zoo, and, yes, sports organizations.  I don't think a contribution commensurate to what the Bills, as a cultural organization, means to the community, is an inappropriate use of funds.

 

Great perspective here. Thank you.

 

given the average collection of an Erie County Library, it's appropriate. 

Mostly detective stories and romance novels. Which I'm not looking down my nose at, but why is paying for that form of entertainment any better than paying for another form of entertainment?

 

Food for thought here.

 

You arrogant son of bitch. 

 

Dude. You're off the rez. That's not arrogance; that's reasoned discourse.

 

 professional sports teams . . .  are as much a part of the cultural landscape as professional theatre troupes 

Ok, so if the Irish Classical Theatre Company cannot exist on its own--in other words, if there is not enough demand for that form of entertainment to allow it to exist on its own--we should subsidize it, but not subsidize something that is vastly more popular?

 

Yep.

 

This is good work, eleven.

 

I'm not sure that the money that many NFL franchises have received isn't disproportionate to their cultural value to communities (I think maybe it has been), but it's a matter that's up for debate.

 

Liger's larger point, I think, was that, quite unlike all of those other institutions, an NFL franchise and its billionaire owner can survive and thrive, at least in theory, without that public money. The infusion of public money into an NFL stadium is a means for a very wealthy owner to maintain and retain more wealth.

 

For example, Vincent O'Neill hasn't held onto vast sums of money by virtue of public support for his very worthy cultural organization. Nor has anyone associated with the BPO or the Library. And so on.

Personally, I think theatre and music and art and detective stories are important and should be funded.  I'm not sure that's a universal sentiment.

 

As for the detective stories, I'll say this: It went poorly for Collins when he went after the Library. There probably isn't a cultural institution in the region that enjoys broader support. Take note, Joe Lorigo.

Edited December 15, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[PASabreFan]

eleven slashes the tires on the BookMobile. He thinks reading is fundamentalist. He draws pee pees in the margins. Shame! Shame!

[DirtDart]

I understand that. 

I don't really care as much about the tax breaks.

 

I care about the check for X that the county will give to Pegula to build the stadium.  The NFL made north of 9 Billion dollars last year. Terry Pegula is worth something north of 4 Billion alone. The NFL should be funding new stadiums not tax payer dollars from hard working Americans who are already overworked and underpaid.

Here's an article about what states and counties pay for Stadiums http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/complicated-and-expensive-what-recent-nfl-stadium-deals-can-teach/article_b7146513-2a04-5aff-ad0e-dd2047b7867e.html

"

Those city taxes, however, aren’t yet available — they’re still paying off debt on the Metrodome.

Construction started late in 2013. The toll has risen from $975 million to $1.1 billion. The public will pay for just under half."

 

500million Dollars in state money going to an industry that makes 9 Billion annually seems like total ###### to me.

Good post, and argument.

[TrueBlueGED]

It would probably be appropriate to see what, if anything, TP actually negotiates with the city/county/state regarding a new stadium before criticizing him for it.

This is certainly the most fair approach. But do you really expect it to look all that much different than every other new stadium cost structure? Maybe Pegula picks up a little more of the tab, but I think we're talking marginal differences when all is said and done.

 

Just read and I must say, Liger's meltdown was spectacular.

 

Back to stadium finding, if it were presented as subsidizing a cultural institution by the teams and league, I'd hate it less (but still hate it due to the extortion component). But no, they choose to sell it as an economic boon to the area, which is objectively false about 90% of the time. It's insulting they continue to do it.

Edited December 15, 2015 by TrueBlueGED

[PASabreFan]

It goes both ways of course, but you'd think the city/county/state have a clear upper hand in any negotiations. Pegula is not going to move the Bills. That as "leverage" should be off the table.

[That Aud Smell]

Back to stadium finding, if it were presented as subsidizing a cultural institution by the teams and league, I'd hate it less (but still hate it due to the extortion component). But no, they choose to sell it as an economic boon to the area, which is objectively false about 90% of the time. It's insulting they continue to do it.

 

agreed.

 

It goes both ways of course, but you'd think the city/county/state have a clear upper hand in any negotiations. Pegula is not going to move the Bills. That as "leverage" should be off the table.

 

fair feckin' point.

 

christ. i had not stopped to consider that.

[K-9]

agreed.

 

 

fair feckin' point.

 

christ. i had not stopped to consider that.

It's a very fair point as far as the Bills go. 

 

But Pegula's enterprise encompasses more than just that aspect of property development. Is it possible Pegula leverages other development plans? I don't know, but I wonder. The gist I've gotten is that his downtown development doesn't begin and end with Harbor Center and a new stadium. 

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Oh my.

 

Aud....am I allowed to post that pdf?

 

Also, the majority of videos, cds, novels and romance and mystery books are all donated by the public. Funding goes into things like children's summer reading programs, public internet access, and the nonfiction collection.

[Eleven]

I'm so sorry.  I just had to.

 

[woods-racer]

Thank you nfreeman, though I was going to have to chalk up another thread as a no go zone.

[nfreeman]

I moved another batch of posts to the politics thread. 

 

Let's try to keep those where they belong, please.

[That Aud Smell]

Oh my.

 

Aud....am I allowed to post that pdf?

 

Also, the majority of videos, cds, novels and romance and mystery books are all donated by the public. Funding goes into things like children's summer reading programs, public internet access, and the nonfiction collection.

 

I'm not sure what .pdf you're talking about - honestly.

 

I moved another batch of posts to the politics thread. 

 

Let's try to keep those where they belong, please.

 

Thanks for doing that. I think, but I am not sure that, GoDD's post above belongs there as well (?).

[PASabreFan]

I'm not sure what .pdf you're talking about - honestly.

 

 

Thanks for doing that. I think, but I am not sure that, GoDD's post above belongs there as well (?).

An "honestly" followed by a hyphen (really?) is a sure tell you know plenty about the pdf. Or the .pdf. File extension? Interesting.

[That Aud Smell]

An "honestly" followed by a hyphen (really?) is a sure tell you know plenty about the pdf. Or the .pdf. File extension? Interesting.

 

As I typed it, I was really like "huh?"

 

I think I know what he must be talking about now. We had some PM exchanges. I strongly prefer that the world of PMs remain where they are - in the land of PMs.

 

Publicly available hyperlinks, however, can be linked without attribution to a PM.

 

And the Erie County Clerk's database can be searched, to a point, without cost.

[Thwomp!]

I'm admittedly biased, but I think public funding of sports arenas is a travesty and that the taxpayers never win.  Taxpayers in Columbus voted twice to not bailout Nationwide Arena and the Blue Jackets.  What happened?  The Franklin County Commissioners and The Columbus City Council "contracted" to the bailout on the taxpayers behalf.  Columbus taxpayers now ultimately own the arena and its debt, but all the profits go to private interests (primarily Nationwide and the Blue Jackets). Efforts to put this to a vote have failed because who approves putting something on the ballot?  Yes, the Columbus City Council and the Franklin County Board of Elections, which has ruled that voters cannot repeal a signed, completed contract.   :wallbash:

 

Icing on the cake:  No debt payments are currently being made because the City/County's share of the casino revenue (the payment method, which has also been promised to pay for other things as well) is not high enough, so the debt bubble is getting bigger and bigger.

 

But the Buttman and the NHL had the All-Star game here and are doing their part to vouch for the franchise's viability, so we're all comforted by that.  :rolleyes:

 

Long story short: Be careful what you wish for Buffalo/Erie County/NYS residents.  And you literally can't fight City Hall once the deed is done.