The "trial" of Terry Pegula

[SDS]

Hahaha. Sure thing. I'll issue a Sabrespace subpoena forthwith.

 

More seriously, though: The fact that a well-considered, serious-thinking member of the Canadian hockey MSM said just about precisely what PA had said from the beginning was ... significant. At least, it seemed to be.

 

We both should be experiencing the gag reflex, but for different reasons.

 

The anti-meddling owner stance goes as far back as my memory does to George Steinbrenner and Billy Martin and I'm sure it goes back even further. This is not a novel suggestion. It is a cliche. It's neither thoughtful nor nuanced. Of course, when people say "meddle" they actually mean "do the wrong thing". The cluster that runs the TML have been doing the wrong thing (given their available resources) for seemingly forever. Mirtle tossing out a cliche regarding that situation has no greater meaning than my belly-button discovery earlier this week.

[That Aud Smell]

I'm a fan, just like you. Not better, not worse. Wether or not our glasses have the same tint doesn't change that.

 

Fair deuce. I hold the we/us thing at bay, for the most part. But I still sense its presence.

 

I actually think Mirtle is a dope. But that's just me I guess. I don't honestly know why he gets so much respect. 

 

Really? Huh. I think he's a smart dude, and a good writer.

 

We both should be experiencing the gag reflex, but for different reasons.

 

What in the actual --? Dude. Please.

The anti-meddling owner stance goes as far back as my memory does to George Steinbrenner and Billy Martin and I'm sure it goes back even further. This is not a novel suggestion. It is a cliche. 

 

There's nothing new under the sun. That is true. So I reckon we should all stop talking about everything forever.

It's neither thoughtful nor nuanced. 

 

It can be.

Of course, when people say "meddle" they actually mean "do the wrong thing". 

 

I think people are also talking, in the abstract, about the extent to which an owner involves him or herself and in which varieties of decisions -- not just whether s/he gets them right or wrong. Of course, if the decisions are right, there's no gripe.

The cluster###### that runs the TML have been doing the wrong thing (given their available resources) for seemingly forever. 

 

Best I could tell, Mirtle was not talking about the Leafs. At least, not anymore - given what they've done most recently.

Edited March 23, 2016 by That Aud Smell

[K-9]

I acknowledge the psychology behind being an antipegulite. We had those weeks and months leading up to the initial presser to make Terry whatever we wanted him to be in our minds. When I heard longtime Sabres fan and Pennsylvania native, oh wow, my imagination took off. I imagined an oil and gas guy I've known my whole life, pulling up to the arena in a pickup wearing shitkickers, announcing in his best Harrison Ford, but somehow with a Western PA accent, "Get off my team." Cleaning house. Then being smart enough to find the best hockey people in the world and stepping back. A sticky wicket there, eh?

 

Then I imagine myself as Terry, with Terry's money. I wouldn't do anything the way he's done it. You wouldn't have seen me on the ice before a game, in the war room, at the draft table. I so readily acknowledge my ignorance of running a hockey team I wouldn't have touched any of it. I would have been inclined to hire a strong hockey president and give him many of the powers of ownership. But being so meak and deferential is one reason I'm PA and he's TPegs. Guys like that don't do what guys like me would do if I were he... him... whatever. Another stick wicket.

 

So I guess I punish Terry for not being the Terry I fantasized about him being.

 

Just for some balance, and I don't do nearly a good enough job expressing this, I think Terry cares, I think he wants to win, I know he's willing to spend to do so. He's not a monster. He's a good owner. But we're so close to absolute ownership perfection, it's tantalizing. I hope he's learning to get out of the way. #thanksmirtle

So, your entire anti-Pegula stance is based on projection. Thanks for clearing that up.

[That Aud Smell]

Mirtle tossing out a cliche regarding that situation has no greater meaning than my belly-button discovery earlier this week.

 

Hmm. Gotcha.

So, your entire anti-Pegula stance is based on projection. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

That's sort of a sh1tty thing to post.

[TrueBlueGED]

I actually think Mirtle is a dope. But that's just me I guess. I don't honestly know why he gets so much respect. 

 

It's just you. Of the traditional hockey journalists, he's one of the best out there--generally even-handed in approach with ability to analyze things through a variety of different lenses. 

[K-9]

Hmm. Gotcha.

 

That's sort of a sh1tty thing to post.

Sorry you feel that way, but I can live with it.

 

When screed after screed of accusations of Pegula's meddling and bungling is based on nothing more than "I would have done it differently", that is exactly what it is, projection.

 

I could have said it in a much schittier way.

[That Aud Smell]

I could have said it in a much schittier way.

 

True.

 

I appreciated PA's acknowledgment. I also appreciated the thought and energy he put into those "screeds" (even if I did tire of them, at times).

[darksabre]

It's just you. Of the traditional hockey journalists, he's one of the best out there--generally even-handed in approach with ability to analyze things through a variety of different lenses.

I find him obnoxious on Twitter. I haven't read much of his work lately.

[PASabreFan]

So, your entire anti-Pegula stance is based on projection. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sure. Projection, or an expectation that a fellow fan would not act like someone without skin in the skin, that he would be scared as hell about damaging something he loves, and be a little smarter.

 

What kind of owner would you be? Would you want to be at the table and have Devine ask you if you want to get tougher to play against?

Terry's the owner. It's his team, it's his money, he can be as involved as he wants to be. There's no "we". There's no "us". It's his, and he don't owe the fanatics a damn thing. It amazes me the sense of entitlement some seem to have. I'm also amused and entertained, so please, carry on...

It's just different. They're the Buffalo Sabres. I'm sure someone could buy the Buffalo Philharmonic, but would it really belong to that person? I bet Terry would disagree with your sentiment.

 

For the record, I've never said Terry doesn't have the right to own the team however he wants. I just think the way he approached it at the beginning was dumb. I'd love to see Pegula's reaction if, instead of Shell, some oil and gas fan with no experience in the business had bought East Resources and started playing around with it.

We both should be experiencing the gag reflex, but for different reasons.

 

The anti-meddling owner stance goes as far back as my memory does to George Steinbrenner and Billy Martin and I'm sure it goes back even further. This is not a novel suggestion. It is a cliche. It's neither thoughtful nor nuanced. Of course, when people say "meddle" they actually mean "do the wrong thing". The cluster###### that runs the TML have been doing the wrong thing (given their available resources) for seemingly forever. Mirtle tossing out a cliche regarding that situation has no greater meaning than my belly-button discovery earlier this week.

Well I think there must be something that provoked that tweet. I don't think he figured, hey, why not toss out a cliche? Maybe he has done some reporting that indicates that Canadian team owners are meddling and then some.

[SDS]

Well I think there must be something that provoked that tweet. I don't think he figured, hey, why not toss out a cliche? Maybe he has done some reporting that indicates that Canadian team owners are meddling and then some.

 

Or maybe he was just replying to a Sens fan stating about his owner:

 

SensChirp ‏@SensChirp

Melnyk says he he has lots of experience in analytics. Horse racing analytics. Says experienced hockey guys don't need analytics. Yiikes.

 

So, Mirtle is an analytics guy and hears an owner doesn't believe in analytics and says "don't meddle". I wonder if he would say the same thing if the owner was an advocate of hockey analytics? Me thinks not.

[nfreeman]

So if I understand this correctly, Mirtle wasn't tweeting about TP? Just about the concept of ownership meddling? And this somehow has been deemed to vindicate PAFan's ongoing, based-wholly-on-speculation (not sure whether this is "speculation that" or "speculation whether") crusade?

 

If you must.

[SDS]

So if I understand this correctly, Mirtle wasn't tweeting about TP? Just about the concept of ownership meddling? And this somehow has been deemed to vindicate PAFan's ongoing, based-wholly-on-speculation (not sure whether this is "speculation that" or "speculation whether") crusade?

 

If you must.

 

No, he was replying to a Sens fan about their owner as I stated above and then made a general statement about the state of Canadian ownership.

[PASabreFan]

So if I understand this correctly, Mirtle wasn't tweeting about TP? Just about the concept of ownership meddling? And this somehow has been deemed to vindicate PAFan's ongoing, based-wholly-on-speculation (not sure whether this is "speculation that" or "speculation whether") crusade?

 

If you must.

Read the thread, dude. There's plenty of evidence, not the least of which was Terry owning the spending spree of summer 2011. Continue with your narrative though.

 

Or maybe he was just replying to a Sens fan stating about his owner:

 

SensChirp ‏@SensChirp

Melnyk says he he has lots of experience in analytics. Horse racing analytics. Says experienced hockey guys don't need analytics. Yiikes.

 

So, Mirtle is an analytics guy and hears an owner doesn't believe in analytics and says "don't meddle". I wonder if he would say the same thing if the owner was an advocate of hockey analytics? Me thinks not.

 

It goes to my central point. If one of our Eastern Conference rivals has an anti-analytics owner, and presumably will hire people who believe the same, if not outright prohibit any signficant use of analytics, and that guy has no hockey basis for his stance, what kind of advantage do we have if our owner says, "Hell if I know. This is why I hire good hockey people. They decide."? You might get the same decision in the end, but it would be based on something sound and you'd know that other decisions emerged from sound thinking. I just want hockey people making hockey decisions. It's not that controversial a position. Does anyone really care what Pegula thinks about Steven Stamkos, other than to tell Murray that if you want him, I'll pony up?

Edited March 23, 2016 by PASabreFan

[PromoTheRobot]

So, your entire anti-Pegula stance is based on projection. Thanks for clearing that up.

Hey, everyone needs a hobby.

[That Aud Smell]

I'm sure someone could buy the Buffalo Philharmonic

 

Well, not really. Nonprofits operate under a model of "non-ownership."

[Hank]

Read the thread, dude. There's plenty of evidence, not the least of which was Terry owning the spending spree of summer 2011. Continue with your narrative though.

 

It goes to my central point. If one of our Eastern Conference rivals has an anti-analytics owner, and presumably will hire people who believe the same, if not outright prohibit any signficant use of analytics, and that guy has no hockey basis for his stance, what kind of advantage do we have if our owner says, "Hell if I know. This is why I hire good hockey people. They decide."? You might get the same decision in the end, but it would be based on something sound and you'd know that other decisions emerged from sound thinking. I just want hockey people making hockey decisions. It's not that controversial a position. Does anyone really care what Pegula thinks about Steven Stamkos, other than to tell Murray that if you want him, I'll pony up?

I believe it's human nature to want to be a part of and have input in a business that you own. ESPECIALLY if you are a fan owning a team. I believe almost everyone of us posters would "meddle" on some level. If you say you wouldn't I wholeheartedly believe you, but you sir, are a rare bird indeed.

[That Aud Smell]

So if I understand this correctly, Mirtle wasn't tweeting about TP? Just about the concept of ownership meddling? And this somehow has been deemed to vindicate PAFan's ongoing, based-wholly-on-speculation (not sure whether this is "speculation that" or "speculation whether") crusade?

 

If you must.

 

I regret that I was unclear in my initial posting. Yeah - no. No way was Mirtle talking about Pegula. Just making a general point about how to own an NHL franchise.

 

I found it striking that a well-respected Canadian hockey journo essentially said what PA had said about how an owner should go about owning. If others don't see it, well, then, they don't see it. But I think it's obtuse to refuse to acknowledge that there's anything to be considered here.

I believe it's human nature to want to be a part of and have input in a business that you own. ESPECIALLY if you are a fan owning a team. I believe almost everyone of us posters would "meddle" on some level. If you say you wouldn't I wholeheartedly believe you, but you sir, are a rare bird indeed.

 

Good point.

 

And the point was made by PA upthread, too: People who become billionaires are more or less pre-selected as "meddlers" of the highest order. That's how they became wealthy -- meddling the sh1t out of everything in their lives.

I just want hockey people making hockey decisions.

 

Hear, hear. On this, we have always agreed.

 

 

Does anyone really care what Pegula thinks about Steven Stamkos

 

Has he met the man? Taking stock of his character? Determined whether he's a leader of men?

 

(Who did Pegula say that stuff about -- was it Gaustad?)

[PASabreFan]

Hey, everyone needs a hobby.

It keeps me off the streets!

 

(Who did Pegula say that stuff about -- was it Gaustad?)

He looked Gaustad in the eyes and saw his soul. Wait, that was W. and Vlad.

[That Aud Smell]

It keeps me off the streets!

 

He looked Gaustad in the eyes and saw his soul. Wait, that was W. and Vlad.

 

It's going to make me nuts if I can't find the source. I remember reading it. 

[PASabreFan]

I believe it's human nature to want to be a part of and have input in a business that you own. ESPECIALLY if you are a fan owning a team. I believe almost everyone of us posters would "meddle" on some level. If you say you wouldn't I wholeheartedly believe you, but you sir, are a rare bird indeed.

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the out of it. Allen would be out and the largest, most soulful black lady would be in.

It's going to make me nuts if I can't find the source. I remember reading it. 

It's in the WGR Audio vault. Somewhere. Start with the transcripts, circa February 2011. Bwahahahahaha.

[That Aud Smell]

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the ###### out of it. Allen would be out and the largest, most soulful black lady would be in.

 

The gripers can gripe (and the haters can hate), but stuff like this is why I stick around.

 

Oh, and I didn't find the source for the Gaustad thing, but I did find this:

 

http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/21880-the-trial-of-terry-pegula/?p=488547

[PASabreFan]

The gripers can gripe (and the haters can hate), but stuff like this is why I stick around.

 

Oh, and I didn't find the source for the Gaustad thing, but I did find this:

 

http://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/21880-the-trial-of-terry-pegula/?p=488547

A Google search for gaustad - pegula - +"leader of men" brought me back here to one of your posts. You said it was from the original tear-jerking presser.

[That Aud Smell]

A Google search for gaustad - pegula - +"leader of men" brought me back here to one of your posts. You said it was from the original tear-jerking presser.

 

I think it was from the editorial board thing - which was the same day, I think. The entire video is hosted on the BN website now. It's like 45 minutes long, though.

[nfreeman]

I regret that I was unclear in my initial posting. Yeah - no. No way was Mirtle talking about Pegula. Just making a general point about how to own an NHL franchise.

 

I found it striking that a well-respected Canadian hockey journo essentially said what PA had said about how an owner should go about owning. If others don't see it, well, then, they don't see it. But I think it's obtuse to refuse to acknowledge that there's anything to be considered here.

But is anyone really disputing the proposition that an owner shouldn't force hockey decisions on his GM if the goal is to produce the best team? My impression of this discussion is that many have said the owner is entitled to do what he wants with his team, while others have said essentially that he/she is not so entitled. Is anyone saying that owners weighing in on hockey decisions improves he on-ice product?

 

The rest of the discussion has revolved around a forensic discussion of children's tweets to speculate that/whether their dad did in fact meddle.

[TrueBlueGED]

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the ###### out of it. Allen would be out and the largest, most soulful black lady would be in.

It's in the WGR Audio vault. Somewhere. Start with the transcripts, circa February 2011. Bwahahahahaha.

 

I continue to take issue with your dislike of Doug Allen. He's great! He respects the anthem and doesn't try to re-write it in his own image. A true pro's pro.