Whose idea was the tank and whose decision was it?

[PASabreFan]

Harrington and Hammy combining their wondertwin powers of absolute awful last night to argue that it is, in fact, the fans who need to be held responsible for all of this is pretty much the hardest I've ever seen two people navel-gaze. Burning holes-level staring...

 

I can't anymore. Just make the team better, those responsible for doing so.

I don't know about "responsible," but those who bought into the tank have some blood on their hands. And, interesting, they are awfully quiet now after berating folks who warned of the path the Sabres were taking. Like Terry, they scurried into the corner when the lights came on.

The tank. Black Sunday. The Watkins trade. Drafting TJ Graham. Whatever it is, if it doesn't work out, count on fans to be unable to move on.

You make it sound like Black Sunday was a conscious decision and could have somehow panned out.

[SwampD]

If the measure of the tank is whether it broke the cycle of endless run to 9th, it's the single most successful thing a Buffalo sports team has ever done :nana:

:lol:

We really gotta stop talking about the tank already. It's over with

Sure doesn't feel like it.

 

Especially when there are still folk wishing for losses.

[PASabreFan]

We really gotta stop talking about the tank already. It's over with

Sure. The debate about the wisdom of tanking has been played out. The answer is now pretty obvious. I'm trying to get to an aspect of it that no one discusses. How did the franchise make the decision and who should be held responsible? It's like the crash of 2008. A bunch of robber barons nearly wrecked the world economy, no one went to jail and we don't even talk about it anymore. Is that it? If you're rich in this world, you can buy something, break it and not pay for it?

[Sabre fan]

so are we "tanking" this year too? I am confused by the fact that we say the team purposely tanked 3 years ago, but they are clearly as bad if not worse this year. yet no one says they are tanking this year. Maybe they were just really bad 3 years ago too. Or maybe they are tanking this year too. Either way they sure are bad, and Jack is good but nowhere near a saviour or generational player. and yes we made Miller into something he wasn't either 

[TrueBlueGED]

You make it sound like Black Sunday was a conscious decision and could have somehow panned out.

 

Poor phrasing on my part. I just meant sports fans have a seemingly unique ability to not get over negative events. I'm not saying anyone has to retroactively reverse their stance, but it really is cathartic to just let go of the emotional edge and move on.

[bunomatic]

Is it? Or are they tanking right now and just being smarter and less obvious about it? I kind of hope that's the case, cause if they're not tanking and still ending up last.............. 

Look at the Canucks. They've lost something like 18 out of their last 21 and they aren't officially tanking. They didn't have a big selloff. They didn't burn it to the ground. They actually went into the season thinking they could compete. They've had some injuries but we lead them in that catagory. They'z just plain bad. And the rookie coach is still coachin. But their talk radio hosts and fans are calling it a tank. Its not a tank and neither is ours. At least this year. This for us is just remnants of the tank. We'z just plain bad.

[Sabel79]

I don't know about "responsible," but those who bought into the tank have some blood on their hands. And, interesting, they are awfully quiet now after berating folks who warned of the path the Sabres were taking. Like Terry, they scurried into the corner when the lights came on.

You make it sound like Black Sunday was a conscious decision and could have somehow panned out.

The merits and morality of the tank are of course quite debatable. What is not in question is that we as fans collectively did not in any way stupidly reconstruct the team afterward. It's definitely a large reason why the team is still terrible, coupled with prior management failing hard. This karma/be careful what you wish for/Monday morning quarterbacking/because Buffalo nonsense is nonsense.

 

And black Sunday was very much a conscious decision, by prior ownership. Things would in no wise be guaranteed to be better had Terry never rolled in. Quite the opposite, frankly.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Why are we beating this horse again? Whether or not Pegula made the decision or approved it, it’s his team and he is responsible. So what. What’s done is done. We have to build from here. We just have to hope that Jbot can build it from here.

 

The truth is the tank was a media creation. Regier had a mediocre core. He tried to elevate it with big $ free agents. Ville Leino anyone? Once that inevitably failed we trade away the core and began the rebuild. Simple. The biggest difference was that we were honest about rebuilding the team or the media and fans dubbed it the tank.

 

Does calling it a tank or a rebuild change anything or TM mismanagement of the assets acquired? Can anyone honestly look back and say the core we sold off was really going to contend once Tim Connolly had his injuries and we lost Drury and Briere? If someone can show me an alternative to what the franchise did I’d be interested.

 

Please take into account that the CoHo acquisition sadly fell apart (as we found out later because of illness) and that our franchise had almost no upper end prospects, especially at center to replace the lost talent.

[Drunkard]

Sure. The debate about the wisdom of tanking has been played out. The answer is now pretty obvious. I'm trying to get to an aspect of it that no one discusses. How did the franchise make the decision and who should be held responsible? It's like the crash of 2008. A bunch of robber barons nearly wrecked the world economy, no one went to jail and we don't even talk about it anymore. Is that it? If you're rich in this world, you can buy something, break it and not pay for it?

First off, not everyone who was pro-tank is hiding from it and some of us are still rooting for losses now. I think we all want the team to get better but once you reach a point in the season where the playoffs are essentially out of reach there is more benefit to finishing as poorly as we started rather than winning meaningless games at the end with no playoff implications for the team.

 

As for how it all went down, it's impossible for us to know, but in the spirit of the thread, I'll take a guess that it went something like this. Note that what follows is just my opinion and I'm not going to pepper the rest of this post with a bunch of I thinks, it's possible, and IMO type stuff. It's pure speculation, but I'm just going to type it out.

 

Terry wanted to know why we got spanked by Philly in the playoffs and Darcy responded with lack of overall talent, particularly at the center position. Terry and his money bags comes in and says we can upgrade the talent, no problem. Take this pile of money and get me Christian Ehrhoff and some centers. There were no quality centers available except Brad Richards and he snubbed Buffalo in favor of the glitz and glamour of NYC. Terry says get me someone and they decide to throw a truck half full of money at Ville Leino because he played some center as a 14 year old back in the land of Vikings.

 

Fast forward a bit and to no real surprise we're still stuck in the land of mediocrity. Terry calls Darcy into his office and asks him what gives? Darcy said our biggest issue is a lack of quality centers. Terry tells him to get some quality centers and Darcy says it's not that simple. Teams usually don't trade them away and the few times a good center becomes available in free agency they are highly sought after so they tend to pick better teams, places, or situations like Richards did. Terry says ok, so how are we going to fix this? Darcy says we'll have to draft them, but the best center prospects get snatched up early in the draft so the only way to secure them is to draft high.

 

Pegula signs off on the tank and Darcy holds the suffering conference.

[Sabel79]

It was clearly a tank, TM quite literally traded multiple goalies for having the temerity to stop pucks. Otherwise, I agree.

[Ottosmagic13]

It doesn't matter how you get to the bottom, when you try to crawl out on the backs of players like Leino, Moulson, etc. you're not going to get far. 

[Lanny]

I think it was Darcy's idea, presented to Pegula after a season and a half of failed attempts to build on the previous core through free agency. They wanted top talent but couldn't attract it. 

 

I recall sentiment around the NHL was that it was unbelievable that Darcy still had a job, and with little evidence my opinion is that LaFontaine told him part of his recruiting problem was Darcy. He decided to fire Darcy and allow LaFontaine to run things. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Lanny

[Taro T]

I don't know about "responsible," but those who bought into thetank have some blood on their hands. And, interesting, they are awfully quiet now after berating folks who warned of the path the Sabres were taking. Like Terry, they scurried into the corner when the lights came on.

You make it sound like Black Sunday was a conscious decision and could have somehow panned out.

Not sure if that comment is directed at yours truly or not. If it is, go back and read the posts PRIOR to the tank being 1+ year underway. The CHL was born at that point to attempt to make lemonade out of lemons. It's actually funny, because some of the biggest proponents here of tanking prior to actually tanking were the harshest critics of it once what it actually entailed was revealed.

 

Several of the "pro-tankers" in '15, when the decision was a fait accompli were some of the biggest anti-tankers in '12 & '13. The decision to tank was foolish, but taking the foot off the gas in early '15 to end up w/ the 3rd or 4th pick would have compounded that foolishness.

 

As for your original Q, whose idea was it? Not sure. But Regier probably didn't originate the idea. He'd ALWAYS lived w/in whatever constraints management threw at him, & for the most part did well within them. When the decision to tank was made he followed through TOO f###ing well giving us a team in '13-'14 that was ABSOLUTELY unwatchable in '13.

 

That's where he screwed himself out of a job. "They want a tank, well, they'll get a tank." Had that team been on pace for 60 points rather than ~30, he might have survived. Had he looked for an NHL caliber coach, rather than simply giving the job to a guy who's skillset is geared towards U16-U18's, he might have survived.

 

Murray, for whatever his faults may be, walked the tank tightrope perfectly. His team was JUST bad enough to pull it off. Had Regier continued as GM, IMHO, the Sabres would've finished in the 30's both tank seasons and the destruction of the fan base we are witnessing today would've occured 3-4 years ago. Of course, they'd also have a MUCH younger team - being basically Arizona w/ Reinhart & Eichel & Ristolainen rather than OEL, Strome, Keller, & Domi. Where would it be today? Almost definitely closer to the playoffs than this one is, but probably just as far from SC contention, again, IMHO.

 

But Murray failed in his accelerated rebuild. Let's see how Botterill does.

What if Reinhart doesn't want to resign here over the summer? Buffalo is never featured on goals of the week or goals of the month. There's a reason: no talent. And the leadership has failed over many years now with very little signs of a pulse. Don't take it for granted that Reinhart's going to be here next year.

Doesn't f###ing matter, he's an RFA, though as w/ almost all your other hypotheticals, the question has little basis in reality.

 

The only way he isn't here next season is if he's been involved in a true blockbuster trade. And the odds of that aren't high. (They aren't as negligible as Eichel getting traded, but they are close.)

[rakish]

First off, not everyone who was pro-tank is hiding from it and some of us are still rooting for losses now. I think we all want the team to get better but once you reach a point in the season where the playoffs are essentially out of reach there is more benefit to finishing as poorly as we started rather than winning meaningless games at the end with no playoff implications for the team.

 

As for how it all went down, it's impossible for us to know, but in the spirit of the thread, I'll take a guess that it went something like this. Note that what follows is just my opinion and I'm not going to pepper the rest of this post with a bunch of I thinks, it's possible, and IMO type stuff. It's pure speculation, but I'm just going to type it out.

 

Terry wanted to know why we got spanked by Philly in the playoffs and Darcy responded with lack of overall talent, particularly at the center position. Terry and his money bags comes in and says we can upgrade the talent, no problem. Take this pile of money and get me Christian Ehrhoff and some centers. There were no quality centers available except Brad Richards and he snubbed Buffalo in favor of the glitz and glamour of NYC. Terry says get me someone and they decide to throw a truck half full of money at Ville Leino because he played some center as a 14 year old back in the land of Vikings.

 

Fast forward a bit and to no real surprise we're still stuck in the land of mediocrity. Terry calls Darcy into his office and asks him what gives? Darcy said our biggest issue is a lack of quality centers. Terry tells him to get some quality centers and Darcy says it's not that simple. Teams usually don't trade them away and the few times a good center becomes available in free agency they are highly sought after so they tend to pick better teams, places, or situations like Richards did. Terry says ok, so how are we going to fix this? Darcy says we'll have to draft them, but the best center prospects get snatched up early in the draft so the only way to secure them is to draft high.

 

Pegula signs off on the tank and Darcy holds the suffering conference.

 

Thanks, saved me 20 minutes typing. This is my view to the word. I was going to write it as low budget theater, if anyone wants to collaborate, I think we could get 'The Tank' up on Main St for maybe 3 nights and a matinee.

Edited March 22, 2018 by utsvävande

[Drunkard]

Thanks, saved me 20 minutes typing. This is my view to the word. I was going to write it as low budget theater, if anyone wants to collaborate, I think we could get 'The Tank' up on Main St for maybe 3 nights and a matinee.

No sweat. It's all just speculation but based on what little has been made public, I think there's a good chance it went down in similar fashion to what I put down.

 

I hope they don't dismantle the current rebuild because I think this team really could improve if a few things go our way. This current roster with a couple of quality upgrades (Mittelstadt and a top 4 pick) plus a few guys from Rochester replacing some of the dead wood on the roster and a year of experience under the Housley/Taylor system under their belts could show marked improvement and if they actually manage to come out of the gate hot for a change next season, they could definitely contend for a playoff spot even after the calendar changes to 2019. Add in a bonus like Nylander actually panning out and it could be even better.

 

Another crappy start out of the gate though, and there's a chance it will be business as usual again and looking at the standings and mock drafts before there's even snow on the ground.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Alkoholist

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Sure. The debate about the wisdom of tanking has been played out. The answer is now pretty obvious. I'm trying to get to an aspect of it that no one discusses. How did the franchise make the decision and who should be held responsible? It's like the crash of 2008. A bunch of robber barons nearly wrecked the world economy, no one went to jail and we don't even talk about it anymore. Is that it? If you're rich in this world, you can buy something, break it and not pay for it?

 

When the Pegula's bought the team they tried to throw a lot of money at FAs and trade deadline trades in order to try to buy something else.

 

That did not work and the team brought in Patty with the idea that they would attempt a rebuild.

 

At some point management decided that a rebuild with the existing and ageing 'core' would not really work and the decision was made to 'tank' in order to try to secure top draft picks.

 

That decision rests with the owners, but probably not willingly, IMO.  I believe Pegula was convinced of the merits of tanking by Ted Black.

 

Terrible decision, IMO, and Patty agreed.

Edited March 22, 2018 by N S

[Scottysabres]

Larry Quinn is ultimately responsible for the tank, with Tom Galisano and Darcy Rieger as co-conspirators.

 

The loss of two top talents for 0 in return set this team back 20 years, to the days of the mid 80's.

[IKnowPhysics]

This thread is bad and PA should feel bad.

[North Buffalo]

This thread is bad and PA should feel bad.

It is sad it has resulted in another tanked season, but yeah the tank resulted from years of attempting to replace Drury and Briere debacle. Misfires, bad drafts, lack of ttalent eval and development. I do get the sense that JBots is going about it the right way... the problem for us fans and I am sure he is aware its gonna take longer than anyone hoped. Next year gotta think its gonna be a better team, but even then it could be up and down. The top of the draft will be a no brainer... more crucial will be the later rounds. This is where JBots proves his metal and even then itll incremental improvement till all the pieces are in place. Edited March 22, 2018 by North Buffalo

[PASabreFan]

This thread is bad and PA should feel bad.

Nah. There have been a few interesting theories about how it all went down. As they say, Victory has a thousand fathers, while defeat is an orphan. If the Sabres were on the cusp™ of winning a Cup right now, I guarantee that the author/s of the tank would be signing at Borders, if Borders is still a thing.

[PerreaultForever]

Shouldn't the real discussion of why we keep being so bad center on bad management? 

 

A tank is fine IF you rebuild well after it.

Trading veterans for draft picks is fine IF you use those picks wisely for good young players.

Signing FAs is fine IF they are good players that provide leadership and help you win.

 

Previous management has failed in all three areas. All we can hope for now, is that this current management will do a better job. The bar is pretty low. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Nah. There have been a few interesting theories about how it all went down. As they say, Victory has a thousand fathers, while defeat is an orphan. If the Sabres were on the cusp™ of winning a Cup right now, I guarantee that the author/s of the tank would be signing ###### at Borders, if Borders is still a thing.

 

It's about time you trade marked cusp.

 

Now you will be rich when there comes a certain trade mark infringement law suit.  Do you know any good lawyers?  Can I get a share?

[bunomatic]

Shouldn't the real discussion of why we keep being so bad center on bad management? 

 

A tank is fine IF you rebuild well after it.

Trading veterans for draft picks is fine IF you use those picks wisely for good young players.

Signing FAs is fine IF they are good players that provide leadership and help you win.

 

Previous management has failed in all three areas. All we can hope for now, is that this current management will do a better job. The bar is pretty low. 

Yes thats a good take. Pretty much how it played out. Only thing I'll add is we as fans have had no input so can't blame us whether we agreed with starting over or not.

[North Buffalo]

Yes thats a good take. Pretty much how it played out. Only thing I'll add is we as fans have had no input so can't blame us whether we agreed with starting over or not.

Say it brother!

[MattPie]

What if Reinhart doesn't want to resign here over the summer? Buffalo is never featured on goals of the week or goals of the month. There's a reason: no talent. And the leadership has failed over many years now with very little signs of a pulse. Don't take it for granted that Reinhart's going to be here next year.

 

While possible, very few players hold out on their drafting teams. It's not productive for the player to be seen as a malcontent.

 

Sure. The debate about the wisdom of tanking has been played out. The answer is now pretty obvious. I'm trying to get to an aspect of it that no one discusses. How did the franchise make the decision and who should be held responsible? It's like the crash of 2008. A bunch of robber barons nearly wrecked the world economy, no one went to jail and we don't even talk about it anymore. Is that it? If you're rich in this world, you can buy something, break it and not pay for it?

 

While we're figuring out who, let's talk about the holding accountable. How are we going to do that?

 

And it's not just the rich, I'm perfectly capable of buying a car or a house and making some really bad choices with them.