Sabres acquire Dmitry Kulikov for Mark Pysyk

[inkman]

GMTM also drafted Guhle and Borgen. Doesn't mean everything but let's not leave it out of the conversation.

[TrueBlueGED]

GMTM also drafted Guhle and Borgen. Doesn't mean everything but let's not leave it out of the conversation.

I was trying to keep it to NHL additions since I'm mostly looking at his handling of the roster and the balancing of eyes/stats. I only included Nelson in the list because he got a few games.

Edited June 26, 2016 by TrueBlueGED

[Weave]

Most of those guys were brought in to make the salary floor. I agree with saving real criticism until we see how this season shapes up.

[JJFIVEOH]

I certainly have no intention of defending Coller's tone and extent to which he panned the deal. At best, it was a disproportionate response to trading the team's 3rd pairing RHD. I agree the whole thing sounded oddly personal. Rough listen.

 

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to start questioning Murray's evaluation of defensemen, or at least raise a concerned eyebrow. He inherited Risto and McCabe, whom I believe would finish 1-2 in a popular assessment of our blue liners. It's one thing to say evaluations are more than just numbers, to which all sensible folk would agree. Every single defenseman he's added has been a net negative possession player (save for Franson, who was a net positive when given 3rd pairing minutes). I think that's at least worthy of potential worry. Maybe what he's looking for with his eyes really does not lend itself to possession play.

 

Meszaros

Benoit

Gorges

Bogosian

Colaiacovo

Franson

Donovan/Sanguinetti (grouped because only 1 had a real chance at a roster spot)

Nelson

Kulikov

 

That's, um, an unimpressive list for today's NHL. You can rationalize away the tank and point to a couple of 20 game stretches from Bogo, but it's not pretty. I don't think it's crazy to think the Pysyk-Kulikov swap, though filling an immediate need, could represent a symptom of a larger problem. I stress could be used it's early and we're still in only the second offseason where he's trying to improve (let us hope that he didn't think Mess and Balls were legitimate NHL defensemen, and were only acquired for the tank).

 

How much longer does the benefit of the doubt last on defensemen? For me, I'm giving him until next offseason before being especially harsh, but I'm officially paying attention. It's one thing to go with the eyes over the numbers in select instances, but when the eyes never match up with the numbers...maybe the problem is the eyes.

 

At the time of their signings/acquisitions, most of those D-men were NHL caliber D-men. If they weren't playing for the Sabres, they would have been playing for somebody else. You can't criticize Bogosian because he came back from an extended injury, then jumped into a lineup with a new coach and linemates he'd never spent much time with. Once those became irrelevant factors, Bogo arguably had a great final 20-30 games. 

 

In this day and age with highly paid top line forwards and top pairing D-men, no team can afford your ideal D-men all the way down to the bottom pairing. Nobody. There isn't a single team in the league that has an ideal 3/4 D pairing much less ad 5/6 pairing. Fans today have an overinflated expectancy of what should be a quality NHL defenseman. I can't disagree with your advanced stats, simply because you haven't posted any (either that or I missed them) so I'll just have to take your word for it because I'm not going to search for them.  ;)

[That Aud Smell]

It's more than fair, TrueBlue, to keep a critical eye on GM TM's choice of d-men.

 

As is always rhe case: He'd better be right.

Edited June 26, 2016 by That Aud Smell

[deluca67]

One must consider Coller may be suffering WGRitis. It's curable fortunately once you find employment more compatible with discussions rather than pontificating for ones own ego. It's quite remarkable that being in media elevates people's knowledge beyond those who are in the profession and getting paid or not paid depending on their evaluations.

I heard Coller's little tirade at the time, talking about how the last four Stanley Cup Champions have been at or near the top of the possession stats. There are many ways to look at things as we have discussed over the years. Coller believes that the possession stats are telling. I believe that it is more telling that there have only been 4 different Stanley Cup Champions out of the last eight Champions. The Blackhawks, Kings, Penguins and Bruins. I would say odds would indicate that next years Champion will come from that group. I'm sure the Penguins and Blackhawks will top most lists as odds on favorites to hoist the Cup.

 

I guess my question is, do these teams have favorable possession stats by design or do they just happen to have a ton of talent that allows them to control the puck? Do the Sabres chances of getting to the top of the NHL in possession stats fall on a player like Pysyk or does it fall on Eichel, O'Rielly and Reinhart?   

[TrueBlueGED]

I heard Coller's little tirade at the time, talking about how the last four Stanley Cup Champions have been at or near the top of the possession stats. There are many ways to look at things as we have discussed over the years. Coller believes that the possession stats are telling. I believe that it is more telling that there have only been 4 different Stanley Cup Champions out of the last eight Champions. The Blackhawks, Kings, Penguins and Bruins. I would say odds would indicate that next years Champion will come from that group. I'm sure the Penguins and Blackhawks will top most lists as odds on favorites to hoist the Cup.

 

I guess my question is, do these teams have favorable possession stats by design or do they just happen to have a ton of talent that allows them to control the puck? Do the Sabres chances of getting to the top of the NHL in possession stats fall on a player like Pysyk or does it fall on Eichel, O'Rielly and Reinhart?

Chicago and LA are both heavily invested in analytics. Hell, Darryl Sutter's entire system is predicated on the idea of possessing the puck. He's even mentioned Corsi (without actually saying Corsi) during press conferences. Chicago has a bunch of proprietary stuff. Pittsburgh is invested, though I think less than those two teams. Boston? Nope, old school all the way...and whaddya know, they're making bad decision after bad decision and aren't real contenders anymore.

[Randall Flagg]

This was Kuli's best year. In the past he had a tendency to take penalties and make bad plays at inopportune times. He has minimized these significantly in the past year. As has been mentioned, Kuli will go out of his way to make plays instead of sitting back, and he has learned when to make these plays. It was his downfall for the first couple of years. He is not a fighter. He also isn't a huge hitter, if I had to guess without looking up stats, he's probably half the hitter Foligno, Kane and Nickie D are. But he doesn't go out of his way to shy away from hits and he won't hesitate to stick up for a teammate.

 

Take his point totals for what it's worth. He's played on some pretty bad power play teams. I don't think he will turn out to be a huge point scorer, but he is perfectly capable of handling the puck and playing on a power play unit. I think if he's given a chance to be a number #1 D pairing and/or a #1 PP pairing, he just might flourish. Before this year, I wasn't sure if he would pan out, but he improved significantly this year leading me to believe he might improve even more. Kuli's gone through some serious roster and management changes over the years, there aren't too many players in the league that have seen so many coaches and teammates as him. Would be nice to see him re-sign at the end of the year and see how he can play with some stability.

 

I've gotten the impression that Pysyk has hit his ceiling. Which isn't a bad thing. He's an ideal top 4 D-man with great possession numbers and he's one of the smartest players on the ice. He does what a D-man is supposed to do, defend.

 

This trade is apples vs. oranges. Two totally different players. I really don't see a reason to pick a winner in the trade, it was just two teams looking for something different.

Good post. The Panthers fans I read after the trade concur with your comparison between Kulikov this year and his previous years and talked about how the coaches basically took him aside fairly often and worked the kinks out, like a string of ROR lessons for Samson, and that is what led to his improvement in consistency and defensive zone play this year.

I didn't hear Coller's rant, but I heard him talk about how he's covered Mark since his earliest Rochester days. Definitely was a personal trade for him.

[PASabreFan]

Nerd Nation!

[PromoTheRobot]

One must consider Coller may be suffering WGRitis. It's curable fortunately once you find employment more compatible with discussions rather than pontificating for ones own ego. It's quite remarkable that being in media elevates people's knowledge beyond those who are in the profession and getting paid or not paid depending on their evaluations.

I think there is an expectation, either from Coller or GR management, that being on the radio means acting like you are an authority, whether you are or not. 99% of the time things you say go in one ear and out the other anyway. You just want to sound like an authority when delivering that opinion. Rarely some a--hole, maybe even someone fitting my description, calls him out for, just an example, declaring Matt Cassel the Bills starter because he played just two series in preseason game #3, just like Ben Roethlisberger did. That earns you a block on Twitter.

[dudacek]

Kulikov has played 460 games but is only 25. He's a young vet who played a lot on a good team.

Pending us getting a Cam Fowler, he's going to play a bigger role on this team next year than a lot of people think: basically Gorges-plus, and allow Josh to slide into the #5 role he's much better suited for.

 

Reading between the lines, Florida thought Pysyk was woefully under appreciated by the Sabres and is a better player than Kulikov. Murray thought exactly the opposite.

 

Each team is probably thinking they burned the other here.

It's about as pure a hockey trade as you can get.

 

Hope it's another ROR-type result for GMTM

Edited June 27, 2016 by dudacek

[kas23]

Most of those guys were brought in to make the salary floor. I agree with saving real criticism until we see how this season shapes up.

Not to mention to ensure the opposing team win.

[Eleven]

All right, GED.  I beat your statbot and I'll do it again.

[inkman]

Pending us getting a Cam Fowler, he's going to play a bigger role on this team next year than a lot of people thin:

Who doesn't think he's going to have a big role? He's our #1 LHD.

[TrueBlueGED]

All right, GED.  I beat your statbot and I'll do it again.

 

You got lucky!

[pi2000]

I heard Barrie's named mentioned. I known Sakic said they're keeping him, but I believe they'll move him if the right deal comes along.

[inkman]

I heard Barrie's named mentioned.

Where? :unsure:

[Huckleberry]

meh, who needs Defense ? Sing Stamkos, Sign Vessey, score 3 more goals than the other team :D

[...]

TBPhD, have you considered that the Sabres have developed their own proprietary stat bundle that might not equate with the stats we all have access to? They did install an analytics department, did they not?

 

It'd be interesting if one of you with nothing to do could scan the current D stat lines and look for patterns that may reveal alternate interpretations.

[TrueBlueGED]

TBPhD, have you considered that the Sabres have developed their own proprietary stat bundle that might not equate with the stats we all have access to? They did install an analytics department, did they not?

 

It'd be interesting if one of you with nothing to do could scan the current D stat lines and look for patterns that may reveal alternate interpretations.

 

Thought has definitely crossed my mind, but if so, Murray is doing a masterful job of misdirection. It's not impossible, but he strikes me as way too blunt to pull it off for an extended period of time :lol:

 

As they say, the proof will be in the pudding. Let's see how it plays out.

[beerme1]

Kulikov has played 460 games but is only 25. He's a young vet who played a lot on a good team.

Pending us getting a Cam Fowler, he's going to play a bigger role on this team next year than a lot of people think: basically Gorges-plus, and allow Josh to slide into the #5 role he's much better suited for.

 

Reading between the lines, Florida thought Pysyk was woefully under appreciated by the Sabres and is a better player than Kulikov. Murray thought exactly the opposite.

 

Each team is probably thinking they burned the other here.

It's about as pure a hockey trade as you can get.

 

Hope it's another ROR-type result for GMTM

 

 

This is good stuff but fails to mention the pick swap and the price GMTM had to pay to not only get Kulikov but move up was Pysyk. I don't have any issue with this trade outside of the fact Kulikov has no term coming over.

Coller's venting on GR just continued what was a very bad week of GR on air talent.

[Taro T]

Kulikov has played 460 games but is only 25. He's a young vet who played a lot on a good team.

Pending us getting a Cam Fowler, he's going to play a bigger role on this team next year than a lot of people think: basically Gorges-plus, and allow Josh to slide into the #5 role he's much better suited for.

Reading between the lines, Florida thought Pysyk was woefully under appreciated by the Sabres and is a better player than Kulikov. Murray thought exactly the opposite.

Each team is probably thinking they burned the other here.

It's about as pure a hockey trade as you can get.

Hope it's another ROR-type result for GMTM

Quite likely. But regardless, the Sabres definitely needed an upgrade on the left side & even if Pysyk IS better than Kulikov, the Sabres are improved. If your team improves, you've got a strong case you won the trade (or at least didn't lose it). I'd still like to see them land Fowler though that ship has sailed. Having eithe McCabe or Gorges as #7 would be an awesome thing. Could possibly even include 1 in a package for an upgrade at RD3. ;)

[dudacek]

Who doesn't think he's going to have a big role? He's our #1 LHD.

I've seen him referred to as a #4, or as a stop-gap before he hits UFA. There was at least one place where I read it was a swap of two third-pairing D. Matthew Coller's meltdown and the general WGR take that we didn't get fair value for a guy that played 17 easy minutes a night. It's out there.

I think Murray thinks more highly of Kulikov than the average Sabrefan does.

 

This is good stuff but fails to mention the pick swap and the price GMTM had to pay to not only get Kulikov but move up was Pysyk. I don't have any issue with this trade outside of the fact Kulikov has no term coming over.

Coller's venting on GR just continued what was a very bad week of GR on air talent.

Way Tim told it, he told Florida he needed the pick swap at the last minute in order to do the deal.

From what I saw from the GMs this was a swap initiated by Florida trying acquire Pysyk.

 

Paying a third to move up five slots was relatively fair value on its own outside the swap of D.

 

 

Also, what number you guys thinking?

17is open, but I hope he goes 77.

Wore 7 in Fla

Edited June 27, 2016 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

I've seen him referred to as a #4, or as a stop-gap before he hits UFA. There was at least one place where I read it was a swap of two third-pairing D. Matthew Coller's meltdown and the general WGR take that we didn't get fair value for a guy that played 17 easy minutes a night. It's out there.

I think Murray thinks more highly of Kulikov than the average Sabrefan does.

 

Way Tim told it, he told Florida he needed the pick swap at the last minute in order to do the deal.

From what I saw from the GMs this was a swap initiated by Florida trying acquire Pysyk.

 

Paying a third to move up five slots was relatively fair value on its own outside the swap of D.

 

 

Also, what number you guys thinking?

17is open, but I hope he goes 77.

Wore 7 in Fla

 

How much does Murray truly value Kulikov if he wouldn't make the trade without the pick swap? Maybe it was Pysyk and our 2nd for Kulikov, then he wanted their pick, then they countered with a 3rd from us? Just trying to work this out.

[dudacek]

Thought it was Pysyk and a lower third for kulikov on the table, but we hadn't signed off on it.

Tim went back and said I'll upgrade the third, if you swap seconds.

 

Have to rewatch the tape to confirm.

Edited June 27, 2016 by dudacek