Vesey signs with Rangers; huge thread now moot

[Thorny]

Vesey will be FINE.

[Taro T]

To answer the first question: people think he could have signed because it's realistic for players who have their rights traded to sign with that team before they reach the open market. It's not an exact comparison, but look no further than Yandle and Goligoski, this offseason. They could have gone to the open market, maybe gotten more money, but they didn't wait until July 1. They signed with the team their rights were traded to. It does happen.

I get the idea that Vesey has the right to wait, it's in the CBA, he didn't ask to be traded. No ill will, here. But the fact is, he could have signed here already. Murray must have thought that a decent possibility because he traded for his rights. Because of this, it just logically seems unlikely to me that he'll sign with us, when he's had every opportunity to and hasn't. Not saying he won't, but I'm not betting on it. Just my guess/reading of the situation.

PA is right that if anyone is to fault, it's Murray. But I'm not going to fault him, as it was a chance taken with only a 3rd round pick. It's not a big deal. Probably worth the risk.

Maybe he can ship his rights out for a pick now, absolutely no reason to keep his rights after the conversation supposedly taking place this week, if he's definitely going to UFA.

True. But the conversation apparently hasn't taken place yet. No point in dropping the rights at this point. If it is definite that he's going to go UFA, might as well hold the rights until ~August 10 & then look for a buyer. The cost to speak w/ him is sunk @ this point, might as well retain the rights to be the only ones speaking to him until close to the deadline. & IF Jack hears he's looking towards the Loafs, get ready to slap a tampering suit so fast it makes their heads spin on August 16 if it actually happens.

[nfreeman]

People said the same thing about Panarin.

 

TW -- I completely agree that Chicago is a major threat to sign him, and that he would definitely have the opportunity to play good minutes with their big guns.

 

This thread is like the island of misfit opinions.

 

Very nice.

 

Even yours? Ohhhhhh...

 

You and Smell can stop being so high and mighty.

 

The Sabres traded a third-round pick because they believed they could sign this entitled little Ivy League crotch turd on July 1 (why not earlier?) It didn't work out. People should be upset with Murray and/or Baron Von Douchehausen.

 

Outstanding.

 

Its a long, sultry Summer. Like a Chicago street on a humid Friday night in here already.

Lot of angst tied to a third-round pick and/or kid that seems to be doing exactly what he can do according to the CBA and has said he would do since May. Entitled crotch turd? He may very well be exactly that, but I haven't seen the evidence.

 

While I would normally support this type of levelheadedness, we're very close to officially being in the dog days of summer.  Cam Fowler ain't walking through that door tomorrow.  Time to crank the hysteria up to 11.  Or crank Eleven up to hysterical.  Or something.

 

Chicago will go after Vesey hard.  They can guarantee him a spot next to Toews.  The way Q switches things it won't last long but the Shaw trade opened a spot.  

 

They can, but they never would.  Quenneville wouldn't consider it for a second.

[PASabreFan]

Lot of angst tied to a third-round pick and/or kid that seems to be doing exactly what he can do according to the CBA and has said he would do since May. Entitled crotch turd? He may very well be exactly that, but I haven't seen the evidence.

I do think he feels he's entitled to something, and he's going to try and find the place that gives him that. Maybe the problem here is his and his agent publicizing the "checklist." Is this a way to communicate with teams? Can't send a mass email? It doesn't put him in the best light.

 

Help me understand why Murray spent that pick when Vesey was adamant about going to free agency. The conventional wisdom about wanting to play with his buddy seems to be out the window.

[kas23]

I see a lot of "he's following the bylaws of the CBA" or "he's exercising his rights according to the CBA", etc. But the truth is, I can do a lot of horrible, low-class, sleazy things and still be well within my rights according to the US Constitution. Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should do something, far from it.

[Thorny]

True. But the conversation apparently hasn't taken place yet. No point in dropping the rights at this point. If it is definite that he's going to go UFA, might as well hold the rights until ~August 10 & then look for a buyer. The cost to speak w/ him is sunk @ this point, might as well retain the rights to be the only ones speaking to him until close to the deadline. & IF Jack hears he's looking towards the Loafs, get ready to slap a tampering suit so fast it makes their heads spin on August 16 if it actually happens.

I agree, wouldn't trade his rights until after The Conversation. But I would probably trade them shortly after that. Do you think they'll be worth more around August 10th than they would be earlier? My guess is the earlier they are traded the more value they have.

 

I do think he feels he's entitled to something, and he's going to try and find the place that gives him that. Maybe the problem here is his and his agent publicizing the "checklist." Is this a way to communicate with teams? Can't send a mass email? It doesn't put him in the best light.

 

Help me understand why Murray spent that pick when Vesey was adamant about going to free agency. The conventional wisdom about wanting to play with his buddy seems to be out the window.

I think it's because Murray isn't just operating in certainties. There was a chance that Vesey would change his mind (not a novel concept for him :p) about going to FA. He gambled a 3rd that Vesey would change his mind. But you only bet what you can afford. Even though it appears he may have been wrong, he could afford to lose a 3rd when we had 4. He gambled and lost. These loses my be necessary, though, when they facilitate (or are a product of) a risk taking mentality, a mentality that allowed Murray to acquire ROR even though no extension was guaranteed.

[darksabre]

Even yours? Ohhhhhh...

 

You and Smell can stop being so high and mighty.

 

The Sabres traded a third-round pick because they believed they could sign this entitled little Ivy League crotch turd on July 1 (why not earlier?) It didn't work out. People should be upset with Murray and/or Baron Von Douchehausen.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

Third round pick was worth spending to speak to Vesey before everyone else. He may very well still sign here before the August date. If he doesn't, he may very well sign here after. If he doesn't, then whatever. It was worth a 3rd round pick to see.

 

On Vesey himself, to criticize his use of the rules seems childish. A bunch of grown men here complaining that a young man is doing what he's allowed. Sad!

 

Most hand-wringingest thread ever.

[kas23]

On Vesey himself, to criticize his use of the rules seems childish. A bunch of grown men here complaining that a young man is doing what he's allowed. Sad!

 

What he is doing is circumventing the spirit of the NHL draft. It's almost making it look like being drafted is a punishment. Why shouldn't players just be allowed to pick their teams.

 

The excuse of him doing "what he's allowed to do" is a clear case of concrete thinking, especially when he specifically set out to circumvent the draft. If you can look past the "rules", what he is doing is wrong.

[darksabre]

What he is doing is circumventing the spirit of the NHL draft. It's almost making it look like being drafted is a punishment. Why shouldn't players just be allowed to pick their teams.

 

The excuse of him doing "what he's allowed to do" is a clear case of concrete thinking, especially when he specifically set out to circumvent the draft. If you can look past the "rules", what he is doing is wrong.

Are you really posing that between the players and the teams there is some kind of moral obligation? Please. This is a business. The kid is using the rules to get what he wants. If the teams don't like it, they can remove it from the next CBA.

 

"Spirit of the draft". LOL. That's good stuff. You mean the same draft where the Sabres drafted a fake Japanese man?

[Taro T]

I agree, wouldn't trade his rights until after The Conversation. But I would probably trade them shortly after that. Do you think they'll be worth more around August 10th than they would be earlier? My guess is the earlier they are traded the more value they have.

 

I think it's because Murray isn't just operating in certainties. There was a chance that Vesey would change his mind (not a novel concept for him :p) about going to FA. He gambled a 3rd that Vesey would change his mind. But you only bet what you can afford. Even though it appears he may have been wrong, he could afford to lose a 3rd when we had 4. He gambled and lost. These loses my be necessary, though, when they facilitate (or are a product of) a risk taking mentality, a mentality that allowed Murray to acquire ROR even though no extension was guaranteed.

I'd be shocked if they'd get better than a 5th in '17 for his rights at this point. So, from a value for his exclusive rights, don't see much loss of value if they hold them for 5 or even 6 of the 6 remaining weeks.

 

But, could there be a value in retaining those negotiating rights, even if he doesn't sign by 8/15? IMHO, there is a value there if they in fact still want him (don't see why they wouldn't).

 

Seems they can go which ever way impresses their seriousness onto Vesey more towards the deadline. Keep his rights to show how much they want him, or tell him exactly what the offer will stay on the 15th and tell him they're grabbing an additional asset now & expect they'll have both on the 15th.

[tom webster]

Are you really posing that between the players and the teams there is some kind of moral obligation? Please. This is a business. The kid is using the rules to get what he wants. If the teams don't like it, they can remove it from the next CBA.

 

"Spirit of the draft". LOL. That's good stuff. You mean the same draft where the Sabres drafted a fake Japanese man?

Not to mention that teams like drafting college players because they get to retain their rights an extra two years. Why aren't we arguing to change the CBA so teams have two years to sign any player. Aren't teams violating the spirit of the draft by retaining some player's rights longer then others? Why is is it fair for teams to exercise their full rights but when a player does it it's because he is entitled?

[PASabreFan]

Taro T is not Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. He is real!!!!

 

Shame on you, d4rk.

Is this also wrong thinking? The value of the third pick for Murray was landing Vesey on July 1 so he could plan the rest of his offseason moves accordingly. Now he has to proceed as if Vesey will not be a Sabre.

[PromoTheRobot]

I do think he feels he's entitled to something, and he's going to try and find the place that gives him that. Maybe the problem here is his and his agent publicizing the "checklist." Is this a way to communicate with teams? Can't send a mass email? It doesn't put him in the best light.

 

Help me understand why Murray spent that pick when Vesey was adamant about going to free agency. The conventional wisdom about wanting to play with his buddy seems to be out the window.

You have 4 3rd round picks and you trade one to get exclusive rights to Vesey before Aug 15.

[LGR4GM]

Taro T is not Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. He is real!!!!

 

Shame on you, d4rk.

 

Is this also wrong thinking? The value of the third pick for Murray was landing Vesey on July 1 so he could plan the rest of his offseason moves accordingly. Now he has to proceed as if Vesey will not be a Sabre.

Yes it is the wrong thinking. The value of the pick was having an exclusive window to land Vesey. Murray planned Vesey signing and also not signing.

 

A 3rd round pick is a 10% shot to be an NHL player. Why do you insist on it being some grave mistake to trade it for a shot at more of a sure thing, especially considering all the picks buffalo did make.

 

This overvaluing of a late 3rd round pick needs to end. Even if Vesey doesn't sign, it was the right gamble.

[Brawndo]

Vesey agreed to a meeting with the Sabres sometime this coming week, something he never did with Nashville and something his camp stated would not happen with Buffalo either after his rights where acquired. Let's wait until the results of this meeting are known before burning him in effigy.

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

For all the talk about Vesey being entitled and going against the system, I think the point being missed is that he's taking a large amount of risk on himself.  By completing school and holding out to the very end, he gave up a year of earning power and pushed back his next contract.  I don't blame him for one second to try and hand pick the best situation, with the best ice time and linemates to make his RFA contract as rich as it can be. 

 

The good thing for us is that we very well might be the best possible spot for him today to maximize that next deal.  And sort of like Drouin and his issues with the Lightning, I like when players do this as it means they believe in themselves. 

[PASabreFan]

Yes it is the wrong thinking. The value of the pick was having an exclusive window to land Vesey. Murray planned Vesey signing and also not signing.

 

A 3rd round pick is a 10% shot to be an NHL player. Why do you insist on it being some grave mistake to trade it for a shot at more of a sure thing, especially considering all the picks buffalo did make.

 

This overvaluing of a late 3rd round pick needs to end. Even if Vesey doesn't sign, it was the right gamble.

I guess I fail to see the sense in losing a pick to acquire an exclusive window to land a player who said he was going to free agency. Maybe they misread the relationship between him and Eichel, maybe they got some bad intel from Eichel.

[LGR4GM]

Maybe you fail to realize a 3rd round pick isn't worth all that much especially when you already own 4.

 

You keep trying to find fault, is it so hard for you to look at it as worth a gamble that may not pay off? I think murray does. I don't think he misread anything. He judged it worth giving up that pick for a shot at Vesey. You simple overvalue what a late 3rd is worth.

[Taro T]

I guess I fail to see the sense in losing a pick to acquire an exclusive window to land a player who said he was going to free agency. Maybe they misread the relationship between him and Eichel, maybe they got some bad intel from Eichel.

IF he doesn't sign w/ Buffalo, those would be reasonable conclusions. But at this point, he hasn't even met w/ TM. Hard to figure why he joined another team when it isn't even an option for 6 more weeks (barring the Sabres trading his rights in the interim).

[Weave]

I guess I fail to see the sense in losing a pick to acquire an exclusive window to land a player who said he was going to free agency. Maybe they misread the relationship between him and Eichel, maybe they got some bad intel from Eichel.

Maybe Meddlin' Terry was the one with the confidence that they could change his mind if only they had a window to speak with him.

 

I mostly agree that the 3rd rd pick was probably an agreeable cost to have some certainty in their July plans. It didnt work. I'm not bothered by that. Its not a high value pick IMO.

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

Maybe Meddlin' Terry was the one with the confidence that they could change his mind if only they had a window to speak with him.

 

I mostly agree that the 3rd rd pick was probably an agreeable cost to have some certainty in their July plans. It didnt work. I'm not bothered by that. Its not a high value pick IMO.

 

Maybe the whole point was to make sure they had a window to talk to him.  If you are building a program you believe in, and you are fully committed to it as an owner and team - then why not. 

[akm]

Lots of people saying that Vesey has some sort of "entitlement" to hitting free agency like this is some kind of perjorative.

 

Yes, he is entitled to hit free agency. I don't think this word means what you negative nellies want it to mean:

 

: the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something

[dudacek]

I do think he feels he's entitled to something, and he's going to try and find the place that gives him that. Maybe the problem here is his and his agent publicizing the "checklist." Is this a way to communicate with teams? Can't send a mass email? It doesn't put him in the best light.

 

Help me understand why Murray spent that pick when Vesey was adamant about going to free agency. The conventional wisdom about wanting to play with his buddy seems to be out the window.

I agree, wouldn't trade his rights until after The Conversation. But I would probably trade them shortly after that. Do you think they'll be worth more around August 10th than they would be earlier? My guess is the earlier they are traded the more value they have.

 

I think it's because Murray isn't just operating in certainties. There was a chance that Vesey would change his mind (not a novel concept for him :p) about going to FA. He gambled a 3rd that Vesey would change his mind. But you only bet what you can afford. Even though it appears he may have been wrong, he could afford to lose a 3rd when we had 4. He gambled and lost. These loses my be necessary, though, when they facilitate (or are a product of) a risk taking mentality, a mentality that allowed Murray to acquire ROR even though no extension was guaranteed.

Mostly what Thorny said, except the situation has yet to play its way out.

It's a courtship, a recruiting process. The Sabres made an aggressive first move in the hopes it would give them an advantage.

They're able to wine and dine and charm him while the rest of the bachelors are sitting waiting out on the porch.

Ideally, it's love at first sight, but even if it's not, she's going to have a stronger connection with the Sabres than the Aug. 15 crowd when it comes time to make a decision. There's obviously an attraction there or they would have already been dismissed like Nashville. She's out from Daddy's thumb and wants to explore the field. They need to keep courting her until the game is over, prove they are in it for the long haul.

They haven't lost yet.

Edited July 5, 2016 by dudacek

[Thorny]

Maybe Meddlin' Terry was the one with the confidence that they could change his mind if only they had a window to speak with him.

I mostly agree that the 3rd rd pick was probably an agreeable cost to have some certainty in their July plans. It didnt work. I'm not bothered by that. Its not a high value pick IMO.

I wonder if they were able to achieve that certainty. Hopefully Murray viewed it that he was proceeding forward as if Vesey wasn't signing, so that they wouldn't potentially miss out on upgrades they needed to make. And if he signs, it's a bonus. I think that's what he probably did.

[inkman]

Lots of people saying that Vesey has some sort of "entitlement" to hitting free agency like this is some kind of perjorative.

 

Yes, he is entitled to hit free agency. I don't think this word means what you negative nellies want it to mean:

 

: the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something

Entitlement: the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.