LGR4GM Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Let's pretend for a minute that lightning strikes and he signs with Buffalo. He comes in says all the right things about working hard to earn his spot, blah blah blah. Years pass, Buffalo is a legit contender with him filling a top 6 role, he's a core piece and flourishing into his 3rd-4th season in the league, jersey's are flying off the shelves. It comes time to re-sign him, he has one year left on his deal before becoming a UFA. He makes a promise to players, fans, management that he intends to re-sign with the team, but the negotiations drag on well into the spring. He says it's a just a few minor details to work out and that he'll be back next season in the blue and gold. July 1st hits, and he signs with BOS, his hometown team. GMTM needs to scramble to fill his spot, the Sabres lose a core piece and have nothing to show for it. I seem to remember another guy from the New England area who pulled this crap on the Sabres not too long ago. So we lose a core player because we didn't sign Vesey? How would that even happen? I'd be madder at Murray then Vesey for losing a core piece because Vesey hasn't signed. Also I feel like you're working ot to find increasingly unrealistic scenarios about him. What if we win a cup with Vesey then he leaves, does it matter then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Chicago makes sense, other than the fact it's not on the East Coast. The article shows how much family and friendship means to him, thus, with Eichel, we may have the edge. Boston would but then jhis father and Jimmy Hayes said to avoid Boston, the media and it's fans. I think we'll still get him and it could be later this week. If Bowman says I got a spot for you next to Toews, it won't matter. Same with PGH, which I do not consider NE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 If Vesey signs a 3yr deal, he'll still be an RFA at its conclusion correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Correct, but based on his age, his first elc will be 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Let's pretend for a minute that lightning strikes and he signs with Buffalo. He comes in says all the right things about working hard to earn his spot, blah blah blah. Years pass, Buffalo is a legit contender with him filling a top 6 role, he's a core piece and flourishing into his 3rd-4th season in the league, jersey's are flying off the shelves. It comes time to re-sign him, he has one year left on his deal before becoming a UFA. He makes a promise to players, fans, management that he intends to re-sign with the team, but the negotiations drag on well into the spring. He says it's a just a few minor details to work out and that he'll be back next season in the blue and gold. July 1st hits, and he signs with BOS, his hometown team. GMTM needs to scramble to fill his spot, the Sabres lose a core piece and have nothing to show for it. I seem to remember another guy from the New England area who pulled this crap on the Sabres not too long ago. WOW. So we're doing well but I have to wonder what GMTM did to get fired because that scenario is not playing out under his watch I assure you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 I have to say, the longer this goes on the less interested I am. But nothing is going on. The situation is playing out the exact way the Vesey camp told everyone it would. Hes heading to free agency on 8/15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Correct, but based on his age, his first elc will be 2 years.So then murray would have to sign him to a 2-3 year bridge deal for the suggested scenario to play out, I just don't see that happening But nothing is going on. The situation is playing out the exact way the Vesey camp told everyone it would. Hes heading to free agency on 8/15.Yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akm Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Let's pretend for a minute that lightning strikes and he signs with Buffalo. He comes in says all the right things about working hard to earn his spot, blah blah blah. Years pass, Buffalo is a legit contender with him filling a top 6 role, he's a core piece and flourishing into his 3rd-4th season in the league, jersey's are flying off the shelves. It comes time to re-sign him, he has one year left on his deal before becoming a UFA. He makes a promise to players, fans, management that he intends to re-sign with the team, but the negotiations drag on well into the spring. He says it's a just a few minor details to work out and that he'll be back next season in the blue and gold. July 1st hits, and he signs with BOS, his hometown team. GMTM needs to scramble to fill his spot, the Sabres lose a core piece and have nothing to show for it. I seem to remember another guy from the New England area who pulled this crap on the Sabres not too long ago. LOL - now you're just outright inventing whole muti-year fabrications to justify your hatred of some random guy you know nothing about. Now this entitled liar who is demanding top 6 minutes and a guaranteed power play spot is scheming to destroy the future of the Sabres' franchise. Wonder what other galaxies we'll explore before August 15! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 So we lose a core player because we didn't sign Vesey? How would that even happen? I'd be madder at Murray then Vesey for losing a core piece because Vesey hasn't signed. Also I feel like you're working ot to find increasingly unrealistic scenarios about him. What if we win a cup with Vesey then he leaves, does it matter then? No, nothing matters at that point. mission accomplished But if we're close and improving and leaves us high and dry, like he left Poile and Co., then that's a problem. WOW. So we're doing well but I have to wonder what GMTM did to get fired because that scenario is not playing out under his watch I assure you. What could GMTM do to avoid it from playing out that way? Demand he sign an extension before the trade deadline? How'd that work out for NSH? Poile is no dufus GM. I don't think he can sign a 3 year deal. It's still an ELC and I think he's limited to 2 years at 925k per year. He's also maxed out at an additional 2.85M in performance bonuses and a signing bonus that cannot exceed 10% of the total value of the contract. I think the performance bonuses count annually. If that's the case, the biggest deal he can sign anywhere is 2 years for a total of 8.305M including all possible bonus dollars (assuming I understood the rules correctly). I assume the Sabres can set whatever performance bonus structure they want so it could be something really easy to achieve in order to guarantee max value to the player. Vesey will be 25 at the end of his ELC and will still be a RFA as he will be under 27 with less than 7 years of service, nor will he have accrued Group VI UFA status because he will have less than 3 years of service. If he plays well I'd fully expect him to sign an offer sheet in order to maximize his value a la Ryan O'Reilly. If the Sabres roll into Camp Vesey with a maxed out offer (as per CBA rules) and he still insists on going to UFA on August 15th it's time to walk away. Well, there's nothing else they can do at that point anyway but walk away with their tails between their legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 No, nothing matters at that point. mission accomplished But if we're close and improving and leaves us high and dry, like he left Poile and Co., then that's a problem. What could GMTM do to avoid it from playing out that way? Demand he sign an extension before the trade deadline? How'd that work out for NSH? Poile is no dufus GM. Well, there's nothing else they can do at that point anyway but walk away with their tails between their legs. He never left Poile and company, he never signed with them. If he doesn't want to sign with us so be it. lol to the bolded. Who cares if he doesn't sign with us at this point? Murray tried, it may or may not work, moving on. God why are we acting like this is Jack Eichel we are trying to sign. Kids got a shot of being a good top 6 winger, he isn't the 2nd coming of McJesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 What I mean is at that point I'm not interested anymore - whether he circles back to us on August 15 after testing the waters or not. I hear you. So Vesey said he's going to study the talent on each NHL roster leading up to his decision. What's not clear is if he's looking for a contending team with lots of talent (where it will be harder to land a top-6 role), or if he's looking for a younger team with a hole to fill in the top 6. I assume he's going to discuss his reasoning with GMTM and Co. However, GMTM can't sit on his hands waiting for Vesey to decide. You would hope that Vesey would at least have the decency to tell GMTM if he's not interested in BUF so he can continue filling out the roster sans Vesey. That said, if Vesey likes Buffalo, but still wants to test to the UFA waters, then he's putting GMTM in a difficult position where he needs to wait until Vesey decides before pulling the trigger on an Ennis or Kane trade.... and the longer it drags out, the less chance GMTM has of pulling off such a trade... maybe he losses out on Fowler or Barrie because while he's waiting for Jimmy boy to make up his mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) I hear you. So Vesey said he's going to study the talent on each NHL roster leading up to his decision. What's not clear is if he's looking for a contending team with lots of talent (where it will be harder to land a top-6 role), or if he's looking for a younger team with a hole to fill in the top 6. I assume he's going to discuss his reasoning with GMTM and Co. However, GMTM can't sit on his hands waiting for Vesey to decide. You would hope that Vesey would at least have the decency to tell GMTM if he's not interested in BUF so he can continue filling out the roster sans Vesey. That said, if Vesey likes Buffalo, but still wants to test to the UFA waters, then he's putting GMTM in a difficult position where he needs to wait until Vesey decides before pulling the trigger on an Ennis or Kane trade.... and the longer it drags out, the less chance GMTM has of pulling off such a trade... maybe he losses out on Fowler or Barrie because while he's waiting for Jimmy boy to make up his mind? Evander Kane's situation is putting more stress on the roster than Jimmy Vesey. IMPO Why do people keep trying to assert this. That Murray can't trade a winger unless Vesey signs or tells us what he is doing? Murray can trade a winger whenever it damn well pleases him, hell we have 6 lw's? Kane, Ennis, Zemgus, Moulson, Deslauriers, Foligno. Edited July 5, 2016 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Hmmmmmm HockeyStatMiner @HockeyStatMiner Teams that have the bonus space to offer $2.85 million in performance bonuses will have a huge leg up on Vesey. Buffalo can not offer that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Hmmmmmm HockeyStatMiner @HockeyStatMiner Teams that have the bonus space to offer $2.85 million in performance bonuses will have a huge leg up on Vesey. Buffalo can not offer that. Why can't Buffalo offer that? I have no idea where this comes from, genuinely curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Why can't Buffalo offer that? I have no idea where this comes from, genuinely curious. There a limit to performance bonuses that can be offered per team and Buffalo has likely already used them up on Reinhart/Eichel and a few others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Hoss, on 05 Jul 2016 - 4:02 PM, said:There a limit to performance bonuses that can be offered per team and Buffalo has likely already used them up on Reinhart/Eichel and a few others. That's it. He's out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 No way, he's out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 I don't know that there's a limit to the amount of bonus money that can be given out - the only thing I know exists is that teams are allowed to exceed the cap by 7.5% to cover potentially earned bonuses and if they exceed that overage they are penalized. So long as we spend less than 78.475M after performance bonuses are calculated we cannot be penalized. Near as I can tell we're still 9M under the cap, including Eichel and Reinharts bonuses (2.85 and 2.65M each). We wouldn't be able to offer Vesey 2.85M of performance bonus without being penalized next year if we were also going to spend right to the cap. Long story short, it's an accounting issue that can be overcome. Also, I did a little more reading into it and the way the bonuses have to be structured is spelled out by the league, only x amount of money can be devoted to each type of bonus, the minimum level of achievement required to earn the bonus is spelled out pretty specifically, etc. The bonuses all count against the cap immediately whether they end up being paid out or not. For example - at least 2M of the potential bonuses are specifically tied to NHL awards - which only one guy can win each year. More than one guy will have a cap hit for it the Calder Trophy each year, but only one guy will get paid. Again, long story short the most lucrative, most guaranteeable contract the Sabres can offer is the exact same as anyone else can offer. There's no way to make the bonuses automatically vest. You need to do more research. Panarin had the max bonus structure and they did not accrue until after the regular season. It put them in a bind with Shaw, but they were not counted against the cap until earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 HockeyStatMiner@HockeyStatMiner @NicholasLippa @2ITB_Buffalo I may have given out bad information on this, I'm re-checking CBA 4:06 PM - 5 Jul 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Hmmmmmm HockeyStatMiner @HockeyStatMiner Teams that have the bonus space to offer $2.85 million in performance bonuses will have a huge leg up on Vesey. Buffalo can not offer that. That's only for performance bonuses inked before July 1. I think. Or after July 1. Either way, it doesn't probably look good for signing Jimmy. HockeyStatMiner@HockeyStatMiner @NicholasLippa @2ITB_Buffalo I may have given out bad information on this, I'm re-checking CBA 4:06 PM - 5 Jul 2016 The dog is Tweeting. And also telling the dude to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 No way, he's out. So, you think Tim is ignorant of such things and he's waking up today to find out about cba intricacies from random guys on Twitter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia Blizzard Posted July 5, 2016 Report Share Posted July 5, 2016 I don't know that there's a limit to the amount of bonus money that can be given out - the only thing I know exists is that teams are allowed to exceed the cap by 7.5% to cover potentially earned bonuses and if they exceed that overage they are penalized. So long as we spend less than 78.475M after performance bonuses are calculated we cannot be penalized. Near as I can tell we're still 9M under the cap, including Eichel and Reinharts bonuses (2.85 and 2.65M each). We wouldn't be able to offer Vesey 2.85M of performance bonus without being penalized next year if we were also going to spend right to the cap. Long story short, it's an accounting issue that can be overcome. Also, I did a little more reading into it and the way the bonuses have to be structured is spelled out by the league, only x amount of money can be devoted to each type of bonus, the minimum level of achievement required to earn the bonus is spelled out pretty specifically, etc. The bonuses all count against the cap immediately whether they end up being paid out or not. For example - at least 2M of the potential bonuses are specifically tied to NHL awards - which only one guy can win each year. More than one guy will have a cap hit for it the Calder Trophy each year, but only one guy will get paid. Again, long story short the most lucrative, most guaranteeable contract the Sabres can offer is the exact same as anyone else can offer. There's no way to make the bonuses automatically vest. I did some reading and came away with same understanding. There is a limit per player, but I've seen no limit per team accept the overall cap, which provides a 7.5% overage if performance bonuses push you higher than cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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