Vesey signs with Rangers; huge thread now moot

[3putt]

No one except Garth Snow knows. My opinion from what's been reported is Okposo wanted to move on, and Snow knew it. I expressed my perception of your argument. Can you better demonstrate why Buffalo overpaid for Okposo?

Or perhaps a better question is what evidence is there that Buffalo has a harder time signing free agents than other NHL teams? On the surface it appears to me that under the Murray era it has done a better job than most teams at signing them.

I mean, signing a UFA almost by definition means you've overpaid. If Okposo defines overpaid:

Montreal? Overpaid for Subban, overpaid for Radulov, overpaid for Markov, overpaid for Petry.

Boston? Got Krecji to re-sign at market value. Got Bergeron for a steal. Overpaid for Backes. Overpaid for Hayes. Couldn't re-sign Erickson

Toronto? Hasn't signed anyone of note.

The league has 30 teams. How many are doing a better job of attracting free agents than Buffalo?

Fla did well on Yandle and Demers, Az paid relative market value for Goligoski, Detroit didn't overpay for Nielsen. Boston did for Backes, and in my opinion due to the fact that it will be his last and it is about the money and not winning. Ladd is curious but probably not outside the market.

 

I think we overpaid for ROR largely because he had no idea who Jack and Sam were, we probably paid less for Okposo because he did but I remember Mtl being our only real competition. If I need to remind anyone of the Ville Leino deal and the fact the we paid what no one else was even thinking then I don't know what to tell anyone.

 

I am not not knocking ROR or Okposo. I like both players. I don't think either came here or stayed because of our potential but rather because it was the best deal either was offered. Not a choice between offers. Obviously though I am wrong.

Except it doesn't, because Ladd is objectively worse, and turning 31.

To you which makes it subjective. The Islanders saw it differently.

[pi2000]

I'm glad we slightly overpaid ROR. It was worth the overpay if for nothing else than to take the pressure of Eichel. You can't measure his value to the Sabres simply by simply by looking at a stat sheet.

[dudacek]

I also think people are missing my point. Until we have a track record of winning, we are not as desirable a destination as people may think based on our potential. As a result we must pay a premium for FA s to come here.

This I can mostly agree with.

The caveats being that it seems to be generally true for virtually every team, with the exceptions of recent Cup winners, the Rangers, and teams with franchise centres looking for wingers.

 

I am also of the opinion that we did not pay much of a premium for Okposo, if any at all, mostly because of exception number three.

[Thorny]

Fla did well on Yandle and Demers, Az paid relative market value for Goligoski, Detroit didn't overpay for Nielsen. Boston did for Backes, and in my opinion due to the fact that it will be his last and it is about the money and not winning. Ladd is curious but probably not outside the market.

I think we overpaid for ROR largely because he had no idea who Jack and Sam were, we probably paid less for Okposo because he did but I remember Mtl being our only real competition. If I need to remind anyone of the Ville Leino deal and the fact the we paid what no one else was even thinking then I don't know what to tell anyone.

I am not not knocking ROR or Okposo. I like both players. I don't think either came here or stayed because of our potential but rather because it was the best deal either was offered. Not a choice between offers. Obviously though I am wrong.

To you which makes it subjective. The Islanders saw it differently.

If Ladd's deal, at his age, isn't outside the market, Okposo's sure isn't, as it's a much better value deal. Your relative comparisons are way off.

 

We didn't overpay for ROR. His open market value is higher than what we are paying. I don't know what to tell you if you think Montreal was the only other team after Okposo. Not true in the slightest.

 

The Leino deal is erroneous as it was a completely different management.

 

To the bolded, this is where the discussion concludes for me. No one could listen to all of Okposo's comments in the wake of his signing and come away with this view. We are living in two alternate realities, here.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Thorny

[beerme1]

With this latest exciting chapter in Sabres history having reached its conclusion, somebody needs to get Evander Kane down to Chippewa again so we'll have something to talk about until training camp opens.

 

Well, it is Friday night so stay tuned.

 

 

The Okposo reasoning is flawed.  If he was worth 6m the Isles would have paid it.  He came because we offered the most money not the best sutuation.  We've is right.  We better draft our stars, because we fall short in the fa derby 

 

Ya ya. We better draft our stars is a solid principle. So is getting the best FA available for less than other teams would pay because we are the best place to be going forward for the next five years. If you care to take the best FA available.

 

 

No. Teams often refuse to pay their stars what they are worth. Was Ryan O'Reilly not worth being paid? Of course he was, but the Avs still dealt him.

 

Other teams offered Okposo a lot of money, too. He chose Buffalo.

 

And for good reason. Was not a money issue IMO.

 

 

He scored three less points than Monahan and 4 more than a 19yo rookie on his own team.  7.5 is not market value for a 60 pt center who will be a wing when if we contend.  I am glad he is here but to get him we paid the "because Buffalo" premium.  

 

You need to look at the market again my friend. And then realize we are paying less than market value for the top FA available and maybe your right, maybe he's giving us that discount "because Buffalo". Come to grips with that!

 

 

Calgary has one offensive line, which contains a PPG dynamic winger. I'd eat my hat if O'Reilly didn't get SUBSTANTIALLY tougher minutes and zone starts. While dragging people like McGinn and Deslauriers and Foligno half the season. Monahan is great, but he's not on ROR's level in any aspect of the game right now, and that wasn't his UFA contract. Don't tell me you think he'll get $7.5 mil or less when that deal ends. His next contact, the proper one for ROR comparisons, will likely be much higher than 7.5. There was no "because buffalo" premium. Stastny got that much money.

 

Hot damn man! I wanted to mention to 3putt the Stsatny contract. Hey 3putt look here above.

 

 

Stamkos ;)

 

 

Well, there you go again. But I see you've been corrected already. I for one really wanted Stamkos here and was willing to give the 3Putt "Because Buffalo"  inflated contract. I honestly have to say I am relived we didn't do that .

 

 

Let me know what day he hit free agency.

 

 

Wait for it, waaaiiit for it,

 

 

Wasn't a free agent (technically)

 

 

So there's an agreed on CBA , technically  yes? We go by those rules yes?

[beerme1]

You are not bursting anything. This is analogous to a tallest midget debate. Okposo is a nice player, but a playoff team didn't seem to think he was worth the price he was asking. Because he was a free agent and he signed here is not evidence of the desirability of Buffalo, but rather that based on the offers this was the most lucrative. Okposo reportedly was courted by the Canadiens but did not want to raise his young children in a bilingual environment. Okposo is a nice player but I doubt other desirable destinations were offering the same money. Staying put would have been optimum and they didn't even tender an offer.

 

 

Well obviously I disagree with this. I'm willing to bet some team offered more money and as you state he's a nice player, his old team didn't even tender an offer. WOW! What a slight that is to all! So to recap your feelings, any player (see my avatar) would choose the other team when given an option based on some old money, term perks well anything really.

Yay!

[7+6=13]

Fla did well on Yandle and Demers, Az paid relative market value for Goligoski, Detroit didn't overpay for Nielsen. Boston did for Backes, and in my opinion due to the fact that it will be his last and it is about the money and not winning. Ladd is curious but probably not outside the market.

 

I think we overpaid for ROR largely because he had no idea who Jack and Sam were, we probably paid less for Okposo because he did but I remember Mtl being our only real competition. If I need to remind anyone of the Ville Leino deal and the fact the we paid what no one else was even thinking then I don't know what to tell anyone.

 

I am not not knocking ROR or Okposo. I like both players. I don't think either came here or stayed because of our potential but rather because it was the best deal either was offered. Not a choice between offers. Obviously though I am wrong.

 

To you which makes it subjective. The Islanders saw it differently.

 

The point you're missing is that it's possible to pay ROR and Okposo to good contracts AND we were a place they wanted to be.  They don't have to be mutually exclusive.  Top players get their money and go to the place they want to.  Otherwise every playoff team would be signing top free agents for millions less than what they could get in the market.

 

You said you're not knocking Okposo - but if your theory was true Okposo would have taken the offer from NYI - after all it's the better destination, right?  Or are you knocking Okposo saying he wasn't worth the money we gave him?  Can't have it both ways.

Edited August 20, 2016 by 7+6=13

[ct fab]

Do we really want hudler at all? 14 goals last year and now he's 32 years old. Great year the year before but.....

[Huckleberry]

Do we really want hudler at all? 14 goals last year and now he's 32 years old. Great year the year before but.....

 

will be my last post here, but more importantly do we want him to hold back the young guys like fasching and bailey.

[SarasotaSabre]

Guess he can be part of the rebuild there when their aging team gets rid of all their old vets and blows it up...Sabres and Rangers are heading on two separate tracks, he picked the wrong one, but I think it had more to do about his "celebrity status" and endorsements than hockey, because I don't think anyone in their right mind looks at the overall picture of the Sabres and Rangers and then picks the Rangers.

 

 

excellent take

[LGR4GM]

It really isn't. At the time of the trade TM said he would be signed, essentially giving ROR the upper hand. I think he would be 6.5 to 7 over 7 on the open market. But I also don't think his contract would have the structure it currently has, I.e bonus based and essentially untraceable.

We are so far apart on this I don't think having a lengthy discussion would produce anything. I don't agree.

[Marvelo]

good riddance to the self-absorbed, arrogant pos. He ll get his.

[stinky finger]

Thank god that's over.

 

Oh no - this isn't over.

 

Mr. Fecey shall feel the wrath of a Buffalo scorned.

 

Bwahahahhahahaha!

[GoPre]

PI, Thorny and a couple of others have been nailing this thread. Making great point after great point. 3putt thinking ROR could have gone as low as 6.5 if he hit the market? Not a chance. Ladd equal to Okposo's level? Nope, untrue to a certain extent. Plus, the guy will be 31 years old in December. Okposo won't even be 30 for close to 2 years. Gotta factor that. Main difference between Ladd's contract and Okposo's is only .5 million per year. Money can't be used as argument in this situation. Islanders are now a bit less talented, and the Sabres have made a significant upgrade. All for an additional .5 million. Buffalo landed the best UFA this season for a reasonable amount. Okposo was not over paid. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by GoPre

[LGR4GM]

Oh no - this isn't over.

 

Mr. Fecey shall feel the wrath of a Buffalo scorned.

 

Bwahahahhahahaha!

Booing Vesey gives too much credit too a kid who doesn't deserve it

[bob_sauve28]

That cuts both ways. Maybe Ladd is better than you wish to believe and Okposo is not. The fact remains the Isles felt Okposo was replaceable for a lot less than he was asking. And before you retort to it is the Isles, remember they were in the playoffs and we weren't. Is that dispositive? Not by any means but I don't think simply dismissing the fact that the team with the most knowledge of Okposo's value chose to sit it out.

I also think people are missing my point. Until we have a track record of winning, we are not as desirable a destination as people may think based on our potential. As a result we must pay a premium for FA s to come here.

Be interesting to see if we pass the Islanders this year. They lost a lot with Neilson leaving, imo.

[matter2003]

Agree, In order for any major player to come to Buffalo they are going to have to overpay! Same goes for the Bills. Buffalo is not very high on many players wish list in either sport.

No one could overpay. He was getting the same contract from any of the 32 teams based on the collective bargaining agreement.

 

We offered him the chance to play on a young, rising team versus an old team that will be in full rebuild mode within 3 years. He obviously would rather have short term versus long term success tho.

[bob_sauve28]

Do we really want hudler at all? 14 goals last year and now he's 32 years old. Great year the year before but.....

no

[matter2003]

There is a report cited in the Okposo thread about the Islanders approaching him last summer about an extension and balking when he asked for $7 million. Not sure if that contradicts your point or supports it.

Islanders are hemorraghing money, they don't want to pay anyone

Yep, it took a 3rd round pick to even get a seat at the table and Eichel wasn't enough to overcome Because Buffalo when all the marquee markets are in the running.

Funny how the negative people with inferiority complexes are always from Buffalo...when out of town people come here they love it.

 

Got news for you...every place has issues. We just happen to have fewer of them than most places at this point in time.

[Eleven]

Islanders are hemorraghing money, they don't want to pay anyone

 

Funny how the negative people with inferiority complexes are always from Buffalo...when out of town people come here they love it.

 

Got news for you...every place has issues. We just happen to have fewer of them than most places at this point in time.

 

Yeah, I wonder if the Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Toronto message boards have a "because [city]" vibe.

 

Oh, wait.  No I don't.

[PromoTheRobot]

In theory, every team that signs a free agent overpays because the team he leaves didn't think he was worth paying. That's sort of the point of free agency.

Edited August 20, 2016 by PromoTheRobot

[dudacek]

Stepan, Kreider, Hayes, Zibanejad and Miller - the Rangers have a solid group of Vesey-age forwards and he could conceivably see himself sliding into Nash's role and tax bracket in two years.

Don't see them as a team on the rise, but the fit makes more sense than some make it out to be, especially when you factor in that he's as close to home as it gets without the hometown pressure.

[Eleven]

In theory, every team that signs a free agent overpays because the team he leaves didn't think he was worth paying. That's sort of the point of free agency.

 

With a couple of exceptions, you're absolutely right.  Great point.

[WildCard]

Well, there you go again. But I see you've been corrected already. I for one really wanted Stamkos here and was willing to give the 3Putt "Because Buffalo" inflated contract. I honestly have to say I am relived we didn't do that .

 

Wait for it, waaaiiit for it,

 

So there's an agreed on CBA , technically yes? We go by those rules yes?

What? So I mistakenly thought Stamkos was a FA, what's your point?

[Claude_Verret]

I haven't read all the debate, but IMHO when New York, Boston, Toronto, Chicago and Pittsburgh are all in on a guy with Buffalo and $ is pretty much the same, I see Buffalo winning the day exactly 0% of the time.  Call it because Buffalo or whatever you like, I just call it the hard reality.