Vesey signs with Rangers; huge thread now moot

[tom webster]

tough to say what he gave up $ wise, but definitely not $2m. He definitely gave up prorated share of $925k - probably around $150k + any playoff money he would have shared in. He wouldn't have been able to make any bonus money on a partial year and his ELC will end at the same time whether he signed March 1 with Nashville or August 17th with anybody (2 years)

 

He's signing with an East coast team, so CHI won't be it. I'd say it's 50% Boston, 33% Buffalo and 17% to the field (TOR,PHI,NJ,NYR.NYI)

He gave up $2 million because he could have signed after his sophomore season so he gave up two years plus pro-rated 3rd.

[7+6=13]

  

 

There is already a system right now, where if you draft a player from Juniors and he doesn't sign within the 2 year allotment, that player re-enters the draft and the drafting team (or whoever owns his rights) gets a compensatory pick. The Coyotes traded for Conner Bleackley, a prospect drafted by Colorado, and chose not to sign him and let him enter re-enter the draft, the 2016 draft just past. And Arizona received a compensatory 2016 2nd round pick.

 

Maybe a system like this could be implemented for College players, cause as far as I know, if a player waits 4 years and goes the FA route, there is no guaranteed compensation for the drafting team. But, as we saw with Poile, they got a third round pick for Vesey anyways, and with Vesey being a third round pick, I believe that's higher than the compensation he would have got under the Juniors system. Bleackley was a 1st rounder originally, the compensation pick was a 2nd. Also:

 

 

This. I don't feel bad for Poile. There is some added risk with College guys, but it comes with the added benefit of longer negotiation time. And, as said, Poile got his 3rd round pick back, anyways. He knew the situation when the placed the selection back in 2012.

 

As for Vesey: don't hate the player, hate the game. He's only taking advantage of the system and the rules that have been collectively bargained. I don't believe his process is indicative of his character.

 

I keep flip-flopping on this, but I would guess he's probably not coming here. Seems unlikely at this point. He may still come here, but I wouldn't bet on it, he should be viewed like any other FA.

 

But the important thing, is that we know Murray is not counting on him. He said as much, that other people are making way more of a deal about this than him. Our off season plans aren't hinging on Vesey. Murray is probably operating under the assumption that Vesey is NOT coming, it's the only responsible thing to do.

 

Okposo was the big forward add, after not succeeding on Stamkos. Vesey would just be a bonus.

 

Thanks for the information.  I honestly and probably obviously did not know that.

[ct fab]

He gave up $2 million because he could have signed after his sophomore season so he gave up two years plus pro-rated 3rd.

 

True - but that Harvard BS degree is worth more than $2m - ha

[kas23]

True - but that Harvard BS degree is worth more than $2m - ha

I don't know too many people who would exchange $2 million for a Harvard degree. Especially a diploma in political science. That said, when you're coddled, you don't learn the value of money.

Edited July 21, 2016 by kas23

[North Buffalo]

Again Murray wasted a pick then grant one of four, still not a very good horse trader and needed to do more background up front.

Murray is doing decent drafting and signing a few guys but trading is not one of his strong suits, Ryan the only good one Kane talent yes but head case not worth it. Lehner wasnt worth 1st imo unless somehow he gets over injury bug... thinking Di Pietro.

[Taro T]

There is already a system right now, where if you draft a player from Juniors and he doesn't sign within the 2 year allotment, that player re-enters the draft and the drafting team (or whoever owns his rights) gets a compensatory pick. The Coyotes traded for Conner Bleackley, a prospect drafted by Colorado, and chose not to sign him and let him enter re-enter the draft, the 2016 draft just past. And Arizona received a compensatory 2016 2nd round pick.

Maybe a system like this could be implemented for College players, cause as far as I know, if a player waits 4 years and goes the FA route, there is no guaranteed compensation for the drafting team. But, as we saw with Poile, they got a third round pick for Vesey anyways, and with Vesey being a third round pick, I believe that's higher than the compensation he would have got under the Juniors system. Bleackley was a 1st rounder originally, the compensation pick was a 2nd. Also:

 

This. I don't feel bad for Poile. There is some added risk with College guys, but it comes with the added benefit of longer negotiation time. And, as said, Poile got his 3rd round pick back, anyways. He knew the situation when the placed the selection back in 2012.

As for Vesey: don't hate the player, hate the game. He's only taking advantage of the system and the rules that have been collectively bargained. I don't believe his process is indicative of his character.

I keep flip-flopping on this, but I would guess he's probably not coming here. Seems unlikely at this point. He may still come here, but I wouldn't bet on it, he should be viewed like any other FA.

But the important thing, is that we know Murray is not counting on him. He said as much, that other people are making way more of a deal about this than him. Our off season plans aren't hinging on Vesey. Murray is probably operating under the assumption that Vesey is NOT coming, it's the only responsible thing to do.

Okposo was the big forward add, after not succeeding on Stamkos. Vesey would just be a bonus.

That is ONLY applicable to 1st rounders that become FA's or die.

 

The club gets a comp pick in the 2nd round of that next draft in the same slot as the guy was drafted in the 1st round. E.g. 5th overall pick croaks, the club that had his rights gets the 5th pick of the 2nd & everybody else slides 1 slot. (8.3.b aka "The dead Ranger rule.")

Edited July 21, 2016 by Taro T

[Huckleberry]

tough to say what he gave up $ wise, but definitely not $2m.  He definitely gave up prorated share of $925k - probably around $150k + any playoff money he would have shared in.  He wouldn't have been able to make any bonus money on a partial year and his ELC will end at the same time whether he signed March 1 with Nashville or August 17th with anybody (2 years)

 

He's signing with an East coast team, so CHI won't be it.  I'd say it's 50% Boston, 33% Buffalo and 17% to the field (TOR,PHI,NJ,NYR.NYI)

 

After his boston meeting it will be 100 % buffalo.   :P

[3putt]

As smart as he is portrayed, he would lose it all if he didn't sign with Chicago or Pittsburgh.  Boston a close third.  The first 2, chance at immortality when his name is.engraved on the cup.  The latter, Boston' s Jack Kemp.  Or Crazy Eddie.  His overall best interests financially lie outside of Buffalo.  If he wants to be iconic, welcome aboard.  Last post on this topic.  Out.

Ps.  Until 8/15.

Edited July 21, 2016 by 3putt

[Huckleberry]

Maybe we should just lock this thread untill 15/08 ?

[7+6=13]

Again Murray wasted a pick then grant one of four, still not a very good horse trader and needed to do more background up front.

Murray is doing decent drafting and signing a few guys but trading is not one of his strong suits, Ryan the only good one Kane talent yes but head case not worth it. Lehner wasnt worth 1st imo unless somehow he gets over injury bug... thinking Di Pietro.

 

Well I guess if it's appropriate to critique Murray it's ok to critique your post. 

 

The Ryan trade was good enough to forget the rest if you don't like them.  You don't mention the ones that possibly helped us be bad enough to ensure drafting Eichel and stocked us with all those draft picks that you said Murray has used well.  We'll see about the Kulikov for Pysyk trade but we'll have to see how Asplund develops too.  Signing a few guys?  Okposo doesn't excite you?

 

What player do you wish Murray would have drafted instead of trading it for Vesey's rights?

[Thorny]

That is ONLY applicable to 1st rounders that become FA's or die.

The club gets a comp pick in the 2nd round of that next draft in the same slot as the guy was drafted in the 1st round. E.g. 5th overall pick croaks, the club that had his rights gets the 5th pick of the 2nd & everybody else slides 1 slot. (8.3.b aka "The dead Ranger rule.")

Good information, thanks.

[Wyldnwoody44]

Getting feisty in here..I love reading it all.... But we have as good a shot as any, 50% buffalo 50%other...and who cares, we have okposo, Nylander, the young guys... And I feel another trade or a big step from a young D.... Vesey or not, we are damn close to a playoff team and on the rise. Be happy, drink, and rehydrate

[North Buffalo]

Well I guess if it's appropriate to critique Murray it's ok to critique your post.

 

The Ryan trade was good enough to forget the rest if you don't like them. You don't mention the ones that possibly helped us be bad enough to ensure drafting Eichel and stocked us with all those draft picks that you said Murray has used well. We'll see about the Kulikov for Pysyk trade but we'll have to see how Asplund develops too. Signing a few guys? Okposo doesn't excite you?

 

What player do you wish Murray would have drafted instead of trading it for Vesey's rights?

FAs he has done well, as I said, includes Okposo, OReilly was a sign and trade but ok, Kulikov we will see, Lehner luv attitude, but as a goalie meh... liked Psyk. Kane's a prob therefore a bust... Vessey not a good decision...

Getting feisty in here..I love reading it all.... But we have as good a shot as any, 50% buffalo 50%other...and who cares, we have okposo, Nylander, the young guys... And I feel another trade or a big step from a young D.... Vesey or not, we are damn close to a playoff team and on the rise. Be happy, drink, and rehydrate

No Koolaid unless from The Cup! Edited July 22, 2016 by North Buffalo

[dudacek]

Murrays trades have turned Myers, McNabb and Pysyk into Gorges, Deslauriers, Kane, Bogosian, O'Reilly, Lehner and Kulikov.

You can talk about dealing too many futures down the road - and remember he has brought futures back, too - but in terms of real NHL players, he has killed it.

And he's done it without draining the pipeline.

Edited July 22, 2016 by dudacek

[inkman]

THIRD ROUND PICKS DON'T MEAN . WHY THE IS ANYONE GIVING A ABOUT A THIRD ROUND PICK. THEY HIT LESS THAN 25% OF THE TIME. STOP WITH THE WASTED PICK ALREADY.

[WildCard]

THIRD ROUND PICKS DON'T MEAN ######. WHY THE ###### IS ANYONE GIVING A ###### ABOUT A THIRD ROUND PICK. THEY HIT LESS THAN 25% OF THE TIME. STOP WITH THE WASTED PICK ###### ALREADY.

thank you

[GASabresIUFAN]

THIRD ROUND PICKS DON'T MEAN ######. WHY THE ###### IS ANYONE GIVING A ###### ABOUT A THIRD ROUND PICK. THEY HIT LESS THAN 25% OF THE TIME. STOP WITH THE WASTED PICK ###### ALREADY.

The numbers are a 76th pick are even worse then that.  http://www2.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=455673

 

According to Scott Cullen of TSN's research a player drafted between 71-80 has a 8.5% chance of being a top 6 forward and a 89% chance of being a 4th line player or WORSE!.  74% don't even play 100 NHL games.  Nashville selected 5'9" Rem Pitlick from the USHL with the pick.  The talented but diminutive center is headed to Minnesota this coming season.  

 

We currently have 40 prospects in the system.  Did we really need another guy who may not compete for an NHL job for 4-5 years, especially when we had 3 other 3rd rd picks in hand at the time of the trade, or are we better off taking a chance on getting a mature young player who may earn a top 6 role on our team immediately. This was a no brainer and a very smart move my Murray even if it doesn't work out.

[TrueBlueGED]

I mean, Murray himself said the team's internal metrics had that 3rd round pick at a 7% chance of developing into as good of a prospect as Vesey is. If you think we have a greater than 7% chance of landing Vesey, then you should be happy with the trade. 

[ct fab]

8% chance that a 3rd rounder turns into a good NHL player. If giving up the 3rd increased our odds at vesey by more than 8% = good trade. Pretty sure it did.

[pi2000]

THIRD ROUND PICKS DON'T MEAN ######. WHY THE ###### IS ANYONE GIVING A ###### ABOUT A THIRD ROUND PICK. THEY HIT LESS THAN 25% OF THE TIME. STOP WITH THE WASTED PICK ###### ALREADY.

If you're an average GM you only hit 25% of the time. I guess we have an average GM.

[inkman]

If you're an average GM you only hit 25% of the time. I guess we have an average GM.

Pretty much the worst post in the history of Sabrespace

[North Buffalo]

THIRD ROUND PICKS DON'T MEAN ######. WHY THE ###### IS ANYONE GIVING A ###### ABOUT A THIRD ROUND PICK. THEY HIT LESS THAN 25% OF THE TIME. STOP WITH THE WASTED PICK ###### ALREADY.

So 25%, 7%, why give it away...

 

I know it was on a chance... seriously though... given how he played Nashville... they should have done their due diligence before the trade or maybe they couldn't.  The more I think of Vesey, the more I think he is stupid.  If he really wanted to play the field... why not ask permission to talk to other teams and get it done.   Waiting just pisses people and teams off and there is always another way to skin a cat.  Even if he ends of not signing before the 15th, he has done his due diligence... and can move forward.  

 

Sounds more like he wants to continue is college life and summer break resulting in folks like us questioning his commitment to hockey.  

 

Maybe he isn't committed to hockey and as smart as he is, he could want to do something else and that is what he sitting on the fence about.  If so, guess he needs to find a mountain top and meditate on it.  Deal is it's gonna take work to make it in the NHL and if he pulls a Coho, he isn't going to go far.  

Edited July 22, 2016 by North Buffalo

[pi2000]

8% chance that a 3rd rounder turns into a good NHL player. If giving up the 3rd increased our odds at vesey by more than 8% = good trade. Pretty sure it did.

So GMTM is just an average GM huh? Does he not have faith in his ability to find hidden gems in the third round? I thought he was had a scouting background?

 

Or look at it this way. They had 4 3rd round picks right? If the odds are 25% , with 4 picks, 1 of the 4 will make the NHL. If my math is correct he basically traded away a guaranteed NHL player for a slim chance at adding an entitled 23 year old with no pro hockey experience.

 

That said I'm OK with the move, I like his aggressiveness. But hindsight ia 20/20,. right? I'm sure if he knew then what he knows now about chicken little Jimmy, he would've kept the pick... and thats OK.

Edited July 22, 2016 by pi2000

[K-9]

So GMTM is just an average GM huh? Does he not have faith in his ability to find hidden gems in the third round? I thought he was had a scouting background?

Or look at it this way. They had 4 3rd round picks right? If the odds are 25% , with 4 picks, 1 of the 4 will make the NHL. If my math is correct he basically traded away a guaranteed NHL player for a slim chance at adding an entitled 23 year old with no pro hockey experience.

Your math is not correct. It doesn't matter how many picks you have; each pick has a one in four chance. Period.

 

Happy trolling.

[7+6=13]

FAs he has done well, as I said, includes Okposo, OReilly was a sign and trade but ok, Kulikov we will see, Lehner luv attitude, but as a goalie meh... liked Psyk. Kane's a prob therefore a bust... Vessey not a good decision...

No Koolaid unless from The Cup!

 

I hate to beat up on you man but you painted a pretty bleak picture by saying "he's doing decent drafting and signing a few guys".   As many experts have said tirelessly free agency isn't how you build your team yet he signed Okposo arguably the top FA and to a very fair deal - so he's spending very wisely while adding young veteran players.  He's drafted, traded or signed 5 of our top 6 offensive starters.  The guy IMO has done one hell of a job.  If anymore of his moves that haven't proven themselves good or bad yet work for the good - it'll be oh #$$# he's one of the best GM's in the game.

 

Vesey not a good decision?  Again, what would you rather he did with the 3rd round pick?