apuszczalowski Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Yes.. he took hits in front of the net. He didn't really ever get a body on people on the ice and he usually lagged behind the play when it turned back towards the Sabres zone. There is more than just the slot in front of the opposition net to playing hockey. Vanek has talent, it's his choice to apply it. You can point to his OT goal against Washington as proof. He can chase people down. He has excellent stick skills to shoot and steal the puck. He has speed when he wants to use it. He just doesn't do it all the time. As for the conditional pick they discussed on WGR the possibility that Darcy asked for it. I thought the reasoning was fairly solid too. The Isles gained very little out of this. They can flip Vanek but do we think they'll get more than they would have gained by flipping Moulson? if they can only replace it then they basically lost Moulson for nothing. The Sabres on the other hand can flip a player who hasn't been declared as going to Minnesota yet and has proven goal scoring ability. If the Isles are picking 1-10 this year the Sabres get a 1st round pick in a deep draft in 2015. They can get another 1st rounder this year if they flip Moulson as well. If the Islanders do make the playoffs or pick 11-30 then the Sabres get a 1st rounder this year and can still flip Moulson for a 1st rounder next year, etc. I dunno, the Sabres seem to have a ton of upside here whereas the Islanders can only hope to flip Vanek to replace what they gave up in the first place and if they are flipping Vanek that means they expect to miss the playoffs or not have a chance in which case they could be in the 1-10 range. You hope they can get a 1st for him, its going to depend on If he can show that his numbers weren't inflated by playing with Tavares and that he is as good as his numbers show, something the Islanders believed not to be true. Plus, the closer you get to the deadline, the less they might be able to get because he is a UFA and might just be a short term rental for someone. If he continues to play like he did on monday though, I have no doubt Buffalo could get a 1st for him, and Garth Snow is in way over his head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I'm too lazy to do the math. But, this year Vanek has taken 51 shots and Moulson has taken 32. Total shots year-by-year are fairly similar. BTW - the guy who is absolutely abysmal is Drew Stafford. 5% last year and 3% so far this year. This guy screams "awful contract." If it was the first or second year of his contract is agree at this point he's just "the garnish". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 You hope they can get a 1st for him, its going to depend on If he can show that his numbers weren't inflated by playing with Tavares and that he is as good as his numbers show, something the Islanders believed not to be true. Plus, the closer you get to the deadline, the less they might be able to get because he is a UFA and might just be a short term rental for someone. If he continues to play like he did on monday though, I have no doubt Buffalo could get a 1st for him, and Garth Snow is in way over his head I'll have to double check the exact numbers when I get home later, but after the trade I checked it out and while his numbers were somewhat better with Tavares than without him, the inflation was smaller than I expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Someone from RIT who can't do simple math. How is this possible? As a fellow RIT alum I felt the need to take a jab, but you beat me to it. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I'll have to double check the exact numbers when I get home later, but after the trade I checked it out and while his numbers were somewhat better with Tavares than without him, the inflation was smaller than I expected. The talk from the Islanders on why they were willing to let him go was that they feel that his numbers are only what they are because of Tavares, guess we will see if they are right or wrong (was thinking of slipping in a spelling mistake there)If he proves that it wasn't because of Tavares, then I stand by my comment that this further proves Garth is in way over his head giving up a 1st and 2nd for a small improvement stat wise, unless he is also really dumb and thought Vanek was Miller......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Vanek Career : 1,686 15.1 Moulson Career: 891 14.1 Thanks. I apologize, I'm busy this morning so I can't sit down and look up stats. I admit, I would have expected Moulson to have higher shot numbers. Interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I dont either and it was for sure a good move and impressive fleecing of the Isles but Vanek is going to thrive there. We are going to see how impressive he could have been with elite talent. Meh. I hope we see Isles fans talking about how lazy Vanek is. I hope he looks like Drew Stafford wearing blue and orange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 You hope they can get a 1st for him, its going to depend on If he can show that his numbers weren't inflated by playing with Tavares and that he is as good as his numbers show, something the Islanders believed not to be true. Plus, the closer you get to the deadline, the less they might be able to get because he is a UFA and might just be a short term rental for someone. If he continues to play like he did on monday though, I have no doubt Buffalo could get a 1st for him, and Garth Snow is in way over his head Even if his numbers are completely inflated by playing with Tavares, I'm not so sure that would ultimately hurt his value. Say a team like Vancouver comes calling and wants to pair him up with the Sedins. Knowing that he can produce with a top end center would be more than enough information for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 What? He hasn't been on the losing end of a game with no points and minimal effect "for a long time?" Really? I can appreciate that European translations aren't always indicative of the true intent of a message. But phuck that. GO SABRES!!! I think he was referring to the atmosphere, crowd noise, etc. The Nassau Coliseum is old and dumpy, but when the Islanders are good, the crowd is passionate and noisy and it's a great hockey atmosphere. Plus last night's opponent was the Rangers, so you had the civil war component. Separately: I'm kinda hoping the Sabres re-sign Moulson (although I'm not expecting them to based on DR's presser), and I want to get rid of DR as much as the next guy, but it must be said that if DR got a #1 for Gaustad, he'll get at least that much for Moulson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Since Moulson became a regular he has 315 games played 120 goals and 105 assists. Over that same time frame Vanek has 281 games played 110 goals and 127 assists. So vanek has 237 points/281 games good for 0.843 PPG Moulson is at 225/315 for 0.714 PPG. Note: This throws out two of vaneks top 3 offensive seasons. One which I highly doubt Moulson will ever come close to (GP82 G43 A41 P84 +47) Personally I don't think Vanek will ever reproduce those numbers. Ever. Even if his numbers are completely inflated by playing with Tavares, I'm not so sure that would ultimately hurt his value. Say a team like Vancouver comes calling and wants to pair him up with the Sedins. Knowing that he can produce with a top end center would be more than enough information for them. I wonder if Moulson can just play with any good centers he just one of those plug n play guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Vanek was a good player and will continue to be. But he is - and should be - an ex-Sabre. I won't miss him at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 So was it also mentioned here that we retained 19.5% of Vanek's salery? Not such a fleecing after all, but still a good deal I think. http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sabres-nhl/isles-wont-pay-all-of-vaneks-salary-20131029 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 So was it also mentioned here that we retained 19.5% of Vanek's salery? Not such a fleecing after all, but still a good deal I think. http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/sabres-nhl/isles-wont-pay-all-of-vaneks-salary-20131029 This doesn't change anything for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 This doesn't change anything for us. True, but it makes more sense from the Isles' side of things now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 True, but it makes more sense from the Isles' side of things now. It also makes it seem less likely that they offer Vanek the moon and the stars to re-sign, innit? I.e. if they were concerned enough to negotiate for $1.3MM in cash relief, they are probably not inclined to offer Vanek a $60MM+ extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 It also makes it seem less likely that they offer Vanek the moon and the stars to re-sign, innit? I.e. if they were concerned enough to negotiate for $1.3MM in cash relief, they are probably not inclined to offer Vanek a $60MM+ extension. No, it just means that they want to have more flexibility for the remaining of THIS season. With the cap likely going up a lot next season and the fact that the Isles have a decent chunk of change coming off the book this offseason, they will offer him a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 No, it just means that they want to have more flexibility for the remaining of THIS season. With the cap likely going up a lot next season and the fact that the Isles have a decent chunk of change coming off the book this offseason, they will offer him a good deal. Even after adding Vanek, they still have almost $13MM in cap space this year. Do you think they are planning on adding more than that much in salary this year? Tavares, a far better player than Vanek, only makes $5.5MM. I'm getting pretty skeptical that the Islanders are going to offer Vanek a fat extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Shooting percentage is not too much different then. What about shot totals? Since 2009 when Moulson became a full time player: Moulson: 818shots for 112goals: 0.137 Vanek: 743shots for 106goals: 0.143 and for Comparison purposes only: Ovechkin: 1258shots for 152goals: 0.121 *0.549gpga in 277games Moulson 293, or 0.382gpga Vanek 267, or 0.397gpga Edited October 30, 2013 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 You hope they can get a 1st for him, its going to depend on If he can show that his numbers weren't inflated by playing with Tavares and that he is as good as his numbers show, something the Islanders believed not to be true. Plus, the closer you get to the deadline, the less they might be able to get because he is a UFA and might just be a short term rental for someone. If he continues to play like he did on monday though, I have no doubt Buffalo could get a 1st for him, and Garth Snow is in way over his head Had this queued for a response and then saw this... Even if his numbers are completely inflated by playing with Tavares, I'm not so sure that would ultimately hurt his value. Say a team like Vancouver comes calling and wants to pair him up with the Sedins. Knowing that he can produce with a top end center would be more than enough information for them. And that's the point. Moulson has proven he can score when paired with a top center and score well. If nothing else a GM will go forward with it. NHL Network showed a stat demonstrating linemate effectiveness. Over the past X years (2010?) the most active line mates in scoring (where two line mated earned a point on one goal) the Sedins were number one at 92. Moulson and Tavares were #2 at 82. That's saying a lot about their chemistry and their effectiveness playing together. I'm sure I made that more confusing than it should have been but I saw them talking about it in the morning and I hadn't had coffee yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Even after adding Vanek, they still have almost $13MM in cap space this year. Do you think they are planning on adding more than that much in salary this year? Tavares, a far better player than Vanek, only makes $5.5MM. I'm getting pretty skeptical that the Islanders are going to offer Vanek a fat extension. The money that the owner doesn't have to spend now can be used later. Might as well save some money in a deal if you can. The Sabres have no reason not to. So the owner can decide that since he's going to be spending a lot of money this offseason on an extension then he might as well save a little bit now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 You will be in a month I dont either and it was for sure a good move and impressive fleecing of the Isles but Vanek is going to thrive there. We are going to see how impressive he could have been with elite talent. He isn't going to playing with ELITE talent here. He's playing with Cody Freaking Hodgson. You cant have it both ways . A month from now I will not be surprised that NEITHER Vanek nor Moulsons game has been raised or lowered because of who they are playing with now. Moulson, is a better overall player and brings more to this team than Vanek. Today or a month from now. Meh. I hope we see Isles fans talking about how lazy Vanek is. I hope he looks like Drew Stafford wearing blue and orange. LOL and what makes them think he will play with heart anyway? He's not in it for the mponey and evidently left his heart in Minny. Love the Stafford comparison but can youo imagine the meltdown in Long Island should that happen? Johnny T may personally threaten Vanek! Seriously though I cant imagine Vanek tanks there. Moulson has more to lose being a contract year and must perform so it's a win for us and Van. It also makes it seem less likely that they offer Vanek the moon and the stars to re-sign, innit? I.e. if they were concerned enough to negotiate for $1.3MM in cash relief, they are probably not inclined to offer Vanek a $60MM+ extension. Doesn't that make this trade all the more a head scratcher from their side? So as someone pointed out the best they can do after realizing he isn't going to sign is to recoup their losses and blow any chance they had at re signing Moulson at the same time? Less they truly believe that Vanek plays lights out with Johnny T and they better their playoff berth and don't face Pittsburgh and get into the second round. I don't know. I just don't know. FIRE SNOW!!! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Doesn't that make this trade all the more a head scratcher from their side? So as someone pointed out the best they can do after realizing he isn't going to sign is to recoup their losses and blow any chance they had at re signing Moulson at the same time? Less they truly believe that Vanek plays lights out with Johnny T and they better their playoff berth and don't face Pittsburgh and get into the second round. I don't know. I just don't know. FIRE SNOW!!! :-) I think the most likely explanation is that (i) the Islanders' budget did not permit them to re-sign Moulson, (ii) they really want to try to win at least one round in the playoffs this year and were willing to sacrifice the value they would've gotten for Moulson at the deadline and (iii) they figured that Vanek is better than Moulson and, by the same logic, they were willing to sacrifice the extra draft picks to have Vanek for the rest of the season as opposed to Moulson. I think that if the Islanders are on the playoff bubble or better at the deadline they will not trade Vanek and they will lose him to free agency after the season. Edited October 31, 2013 by nfreeman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 I think the most likely explanation is that (i) the Islanders' budget did not permit them to re-sign Moulson, (ii) they really want to try to win at least one round in the playoffs this year and were willing to sacrifice the value they would've gotten for Moulson at the deadline and (iii) they figured that Vanek is better than Moulson and, by the same logic, they were willing to sacrifice the extra draft picks to have Vanek for the rest of the season as opposed to Moulson. I think that if the Islanders are on the playoff bubble or better at the deadline they will not trade Vanek and they will lose him to free agency after the season. Sounds to me like a losing plan to me. And if their on the bubble Van did them no good whatsoever! Hey wait a minute we.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FolignosJock Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 He isn't going to playing with ELITE talent here. He's playing with Cody Freaking Hodgson. You cant have it both ways . A month from now I will not be surprised that NEITHER Vanek nor Moulsons game has been raised or lowered because of who they are playing with now. Moulson, is a better overall player and brings more to this team than Vanek. Today or a month from now. LOL and what makes them think he will play with heart anyway? He's not in it for the mponey and evidently left his heart in Minny. Love the Stafford comparison but can youo imagine the meltdown in Long Island should that happen? Johnny T may personally threaten Vanek! Seriously though I cant imagine Vanek tanks there. Moulson has more to lose being a contract year and must perform so it's a win for us and Van. Doesn't that make this trade all the more a head scratcher from their side? So as someone pointed out the best they can do after realizing he isn't going to sign is to recoup their losses and blow any chance they had at re signing Moulson at the same time? Less they truly believe that Vanek plays lights out with Johnny T and they better their playoff berth and don't face Pittsburgh and get into the second round. I don't know. I just don't know. FIRE SNOW!!! :-) What? Tavares is elite level talent who Vanek is playing with..... Vaneks play will be raised and Moulsons will be lowered, Moulson is by no stretch a better overall player than Vanek. No hockey person on the planet belives that. Including all of the GMs in the NHL. Which is obvious since we also got a 1st and 2nd round pick in addition to him in the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsixspd Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 So does the group think that Darcy Regier is the one making the calls to other teams - "Hey, we got a trade you might be interested in" , or does he wait to receive the calls from other team's owners and GMs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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