Taro T Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) Why? Not to speak for Schrader but the reason I wouldn't do it (outside of EXTREMELY limited circumstances) is it's a dickish, selfish move. When you accept a position knowing (with reasonable certainty) that you'll be leaving in a couple of months, you are not screwing the company over, but are screwing over the people you'll be working with and for and also screwing over that runner up candidate. You're wasting 2 months of everybody's time. Depending on the field and projects, the people whose time is being wasted can extend out to other organizations as well. Edited June 4, 2014 by Taro T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Not to speak for Schrader but the reason I wouldn't do it is it's a dickish, selfish move. When you accept a position knowing (with reasonable certainty) that you'll be leaving in a couple of months, you are not screwing the company over, but are screwing over the people you'll be working with and for and also screwing over that runner up candidate. You're wasting 2 months of everybody's time. Depending on the field and projects, the people whose time is being wasted can extend out to other organizations as well. So you do not put your family in the optimal position? Example: I have Job A I have an offer for Job B I think I might get an offer for Job C For me and my family: Job A < Job B < Job C If I'm certain I'm going to get Job C, I'll stick around in Job A for an extra two months out of courtesy. If I'm not certain, I'm taking Job B. Now, if Job C comes through, and it's better for my family, I'm definitely taking it. I understand it hurts Employer and Coworkers at B, but my family is more important. If I refuse Job B in hopes Job C comes through, and it fails to materialize, now I'm stuck in Job A and my family is worse off because I wanted to be courteous. I've made this mistake, I wouldn't make it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 So you do not put your family in the optimal position? Example: I have Job A I have an offer for Job B I think I might get an offer for Job C For me and my family: Job A < Job B < Job C If I'm certain I'm going to get Job C, I'll stick around in Job A for an extra two months out of courtesy. If I'm not certain, I'm taking Job B. Now, if Job C comes through, and it's better for my family, I'm definitely taking it. I understand it hurts Employer and Coworkers at B, but my family is more important. If I refuse Job B in hopes Job C comes through, and it fails to materialize, now I'm stuck in Job A and my family is worse off because I wanted to be courteous. I've made this mistake, I wouldn't make it again. This is the way to go with things. Never feel bad about taking the best opportunities. A good employer should be professional enough to understand this. If they can't put their big boy pants on if you decide to leave after two months then consider yourself lucky to have gotten out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 This little company just sent out its first orders today- they take hockey sticks that were broken in college and professional games and turn them into phone cases. Kind of pricey, but made in Detroit, and you never know when the case you get is a former NHLer's stick. If you don't dig the one you get, they'll have alternatives you can swap in. Pretty neat. http://www.originalstix.com/ Pretty cool. If they had extended battery cases I would buy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 A company won't hesitate to fire you if it's in their best interest. Why should you hesitate to seek out your best interest for said company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 A company won't hesitate to fire you if it's in their best interest. Why should you hesitate to seek out your best interest for said company? Lots of companies hesitate to fire people all the time. Maybe not some of the really huge ones, but I know my dad will hold on to drafters and architects long after the work dries up to avoid screwing them until they can find another job. nfreeman is correct when he notes that it's not always a war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 So you do not put your family in the optimal position? Example: I have Job A I have an offer for Job B I think I might get an offer for Job C For me and my family: Job A < Job B < Job C If I'm certain I'm going to get Job C, I'll stick around in Job A for an extra two months out of courtesy. If I'm not certain, I'm taking Job B. Now, if Job C comes through, and it's better for my family, I'm definitely taking it. I understand it hurts Employer and Coworkers at B, but my family is more important. If I refuse Job B in hopes Job C comes through, and it fails to materialize, now I'm stuck in Job A and my family is worse off because I wanted to be courteous. I've made this mistake, I wouldn't make it again. Alternative example: I can steal $25K to spend on my family (and no one is going hungry at home, although we could always use $25K) and avoid a criminal conviction due to a technicality, although everyone, including my kids, will know I took the money. Is it OK to steal the money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Alternative example: I can steal $25K to spend on my family (and no one is going hungry at home, although we could always use $25K) and avoid a criminal conviction due to a technicality, although everyone, including my kids, will know I took the money. Is it OK to steal the money? no. but changing jobs isn't stealing. are you trying to equate them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 no. but changing jobs isn't stealing. are you trying to equate them? Are you really pretending that the course of action you are advocating is just "changing jobs?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Lots of companies hesitate to fire people all the time. Maybe not some of the really huge ones, but I know my dad will hold on to drafters and architects long after the work dries up to avoid screwing them until they can find another job. nfreeman is correct when he notes that it's not always a war. Sure, there's always gray areas, and I probably shouldn't make a blanket statement like that. I've just seen too many people get the axe for things out of their control to be even really consider putting courtesy towards a company over my own well being. Yes, I'm already this cynical at 29,imagine when I'm old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 I don't know if I'd go so far as to call this awesome, but it did make me laugh yesterday: http://blog.petflow.com/a-man-interviewed-his-guinea-pig/#ZvwahetVgIV5zZdX.01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 So you do not put your family in the optimal position? Example: I have Job A I have an offer for Job B I think I might get an offer for Job C For me and my family: Job A < Job B < Job C If I'm certain I'm going to get Job C, I'll stick around in Job A for an extra two months out of courtesy. If I'm not certain, I'm taking Job B. Now, if Job C comes through, and it's better for my family, I'm definitely taking it. I understand it hurts Employer and Coworkers at B, but my family is more important. If I refuse Job B in hopes Job C comes through, and it fails to materialize, now I'm stuck in Job A and my family is worse off because I wanted to be courteous. I've made this mistake, I wouldn't make it again. What's 'optimal?' Serious question. Had you tried to screw company b over, maybe you and your wife never start her new company. Sometimes things work out LT though you might not see how at present. As stated in my original immediately edited post, there are certain circumstances where I would intentionally hop from job to job. Those circumstances are quite limited (ottomh, I can only think of 3 that would meet my criteria) and the current situation Shrader is in wouldn't meet MY criteria based on my understanding of the positions. We aren't talking about some entry level position. We're talking professional and that is not the way a professional SHOULD act. A far better way to handle the matter is the way Shrader proposed, use the Boston job offer to leverage a quicker and more optimal decision in NC. A big problem our society has today is people ONLY thinking wiifm. Taking the Boston offer knowing there is a very strong probability the NC one is around the corner and you're as good as gone is a dickish move IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Are you really pretending that the course of action you are advocating is just "changing jobs?" What's 'optimal?' Serious question. Had you tried to screw company b over, maybe you and your wife never start her new company. Sometimes things work out LT though you might not see how at present. I think we are in agreement that intentionally taking job B knowing that you are leaving for C in two months is a bad move. I also concede that using Job B as leverage for Job C is a good idea. But at the end of the day, if C can't come through in time, I'm taking B. If C does eventually come through and it is better (better hours, pay, closer to family, etc.), I would have a hard time turning it down out of respect for Employer B. FWIW, this isn't a problem at the professional level in some other countries. In the UK, for instance, a lot of employees sign multi-year contracts with some limited guarantees of employment and limited opt out clauses. Something between a football contract and a hockey contract. So it's not purely at-will employment like it is here. Given this discussion, it's an interesting model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Come on. Who takes a job and then leaves a few months later? :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Come on. Who takes a job and then leaves a few months later? :unsure: A tree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chileanseabass Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Come on. Who takes a job and then leaves a few months later? :unsure: Isn't that the Pat Lafontaine model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Shrader: is the job at Duke U., or at a company in Durham? If the former, I would advise taking it very seriously. It is a Duke job. It is so preliminary right now, basically my resume has been passed along to their hiring people. But I know in advance that I already have the blessing of the head of their department. I'll just see how tomorrow goes and then move from there. And as for the rest of the discussion, taking a job and then leaving immediately really is an integrity issue to me. It's not something I could do. Selfish and dick move may be a bit strong, but to me it does speak to a lack of character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 It is a Duke job. It is so preliminary right now, basically my resume has been passed along to their hiring people. But I know in advance that I already have the blessing of the head of their department. I'll just see how tomorrow goes and then move from there. And as for the rest of the discussion, taking a job and then leaving immediately really is an integrity issue to me. It's not something I could do. Selfish and dick move may be a bit strong, but to me it does speak to a lack of character. I don't think I lack character. I've made the decision to pass on B because C was coming down the pipe for sure in 3 months. C fell through and I ended up in A for another 2 and a half years and job D wasn't as good as B. Best of luck to you. I hope you get both offers on the same day :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 What's 'optimal?' Serious question. Had you tried to screw company b over, maybe you and your wife never start her new company. Sometimes things work out LT though you might not see how at present. As stated in my original immediately edited post, there are certain circumstances where I would intentionally hop from job to job. Those circumstances are quite limited (ottomh, I can only think of 3 that would meet my criteria) and the current situation Shrader is in wouldn't meet MY criteria based on my understanding of the positions. We aren't talking about some entry level position. We're talking professional and that is not the way a professional SHOULD act. A far better way to handle the matter is the way Shrader proposed, use the Boston job offer to leverage a quicker and more optimal decision in NC. A big problem our society has today is people ONLY thinking wiifm. Taking the Boston offer knowing there is a very strong probability the NC one is around the corner and you're as good as gone is a dickish move IMHO. I think we are in agreement that intentionally taking job B knowing that you are leaving for C in two months is a bad move. I also concede that using Job B as leverage for Job C is a good idea. But at the end of the day, if C can't come through in time, I'm taking B. If C does eventually come through and it is better (better hours, pay, closer to family, etc.), I would have a hard time turning it down out of respect for Employer B. FWIW, this isn't a problem at the professional level in some other countries. In the UK, for instance, a lot of employees sign multi-year contracts with some limited guarantees of employment and limited opt out clauses. Something between a football contract and a hockey contract. So it's not purely at-will employment like it is here. Given this discussion, it's an interesting model. I am in a very similar situation right now. I currently work for A which has me traveling every week (out of town not local travel). This is incredibly sub-optimal for me and my family - being a fiance and a new puppy - and I am ready to have a more stable work schedule, something that gets me home everyday at 5pm or so. I currently have a job offer at company B, which is a slightly lower salary but will get me home every night with no travel. It is by no means my dream job but a much better family life situation. I am still interviewing with a few other positions due to the timing of the initial interview processes, and if company C offers me the position (better company, significantly better pay) I would prefer to take that. I don't expect an answer from company C for at least another month, but I am not waiting another month dealing with the travel schedule of my current job. So I may end up screwing company B in a month or so. I feel bad but I am not being miserable for another month out of professional courtesy. I don't think I lack character. I've made the decision to pass on B because C was coming down the pipe for sure in 3 months. C fell through and I ended up in A for another 2 and a half years and job D wasn't as good as B. Best of luck to you. I hope you get both offers on the same day :-) Same thing happened to me, I turned down interviews a year ago when B originally offered me the position. Weeks later it fell through with B on a technicality and I have been stuck at A for a whole year since. Who knows if those other interviews could have translated into something better. I turned them down out of professional courtesy for not wasting their time. Not making that mistake again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 This guy: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5455567 http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/05/world/europe/d-day-paratrooper-jumps-again/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 I took a picture off my balcony when I got home this evening right at that "golden hour" moment, and remembered that I had a shot from the same spot from back in December. It was about 5 AM and the first really substantial snowfall- I was up going to the airport to go home for Christmas. It was dead silent, and no color anywhere. Not even the red bridge registered as red. Completely grey and blue and washed out. I enjoy the juxtaposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 I took a picture off my balcony when I got home this evening right at that "golden hour" moment, and remembered that I had a shot from the same spot from back in December. It was about 5 AM and the first really substantial snowfall- I was up going to the airport to go home for Christmas. It was dead silent, and no color anywhere. Not even the red bridge registered as red. Completely grey and blue and washed out. I enjoy the juxtaposition. That's really cool. Give me the Gray Expanse, BTW. I'm not a fan of Summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josie Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 That's really cool. Give me the Gray Expanse, BTW. I'm not a fan of Summer. I'm with you on that. I miss not sweating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 I'm with you on that. I miss not sweating. If I'm doing nothing,… perfectly calm and still,… I shouldn't be stewing in my own sauce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 THIS guy. 25 years ago today that brave mofo stood up to tanks. Hopefully he's still alive and well somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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