Kevyn and Don, should we really expect more after four years?

[tom webster]

You all owe this to LabattBlue, one of my favorite posters by the way.

I asked a question in a couple of different threads. Are we holding KA and DG responsible for the 9 years before they were put in charge instead of just the four years or so they have been here. Blue responded like the other poster with the usual, it's the NHL, 'everyone makes the playoffs." "parity" reigns, so on and so forth.

Today I had lunch with someone with an educated opinion so I started in on the discussion at which point he smiled and talked about how he's been pushing this story to people he perceived had the time to do the kind of research this topic probably needs.

Anyway, here is the abridged version.

After tearing down the whole organization, KA kept Ralph to start the 56 game, 20/21 season before replacing him with DG ezactly half way between the 56 games.

Out of the 16 teams that made the playoffs that year, 7 have made the playoffs all four years since then. 3 of them have made it three of the four years and three more have made it the last three years.

That leaves you with four teams who made the playoffs once in these four year and two likely to this year;

1) Montreal - a true anamoly

2) Calgary - a team on a rise set back byTkaczuk and other contract issues

3) Seattle - went all in on year two but now have taken a major step back

4) New Jersey - considered a year ahead of Buffalo last year, they too have taken a step back

5) Philly - a "Torts" surge likely to last this year but no excuses, they continue to win.

6) Vancouver - they've been out of the playoffs since 2014/2015 I believe

Further, 

Out of the bottom ten teams from KA's first year;

Six are behind Buffalo this year

LA has become a perenial playoff team but where well on their way when Buffalo started the rebuild.

New Jersey made it last year.

Detroit may this year.

I know, I know, It still sucks, none of this matters and we are all tired of waiting but the truth is, its not like all the other organizations are passing them by. They are holding their own, have the youngest roster in the NHL, apparently a boatload of prospects and other teams are nearing the end of their run, except Boston who somehow never rettreats. Like it or not, they can make a good case for earning another year.

 

Fire away.

 

[Thorny]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:40 AM, dudacek said:

@PASabreFan we crumbled when you stopped hearing what I was actually trying to say. I still love you 😘

But in this case, so far I was wrong, you were right.

Hedged bets and built-in excuses everywhere in this thread.

I hope the team is made of sterner stuff than the fans.

 

[GoPuckYourself]

Neither should be back next season, no playoffs in 3-4 years should seal their fate but they seem to keep getting more chances like things will change but never do and I'm sure this season will be no different.

[Carmel Corn]

Short answer:  YES

[mjd1001]

Another thread about coaching management, but with some other points made. My opinion is still the same, both should be back for the start of next year, and then you keep evaluating from then on.

[LabattBlue]

Answer to the problem…
 

1 - Pegula sells the team

2 - New Owner fires Adams, Granato and all of his assistants.

3 - New Owner hires experienced hockey man to be PoHO.

4 - PoHO hires experienced GM, who in turn hires an experienced HC(at the NHL level).

5 - GM & HC determine that this isn’t a playoff roster, and setup a plan to fix it. No one is untouchable…NO ONE.  

6 - Playoffs are the minimum goal in 24-25.  

Edited March 27 by LabattBlue

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

You all owe this to LabattBlue, one of my favorite posters by the way.

Thanks Tom.  Right back at you!  👍🏻

[Hank]

Yes to both, but I wouldn't be upset if Don was let go. I think Adams is doing it the right way with his draft and develop strategy. The fact I'm in a small minority reinforces my belief. At the start of the season almost everyone on here wanted 6K waived, he's now a top 10 goalie in the league. 18 months ago most people on here wanted Mitts waived, never forgiving him for not being able to do a pull-up at the combine. Adams flipped him for a top pair d-man entering his prime, a good(possibly great) hockey trade that many said he couldn't/wouldn't pull off. A few years ago the majority on here wanted Tage waived, never forgiving him for O'Rielly winning the cup. He's a damn good player on a long term team friendly contract. We're on the right path, the usual suspects telling me I'm wrong only means I'm right. 

[shrader]

I think the GM gets a longer leash than the coach. It’s easier to pin the stagnation of several players on the coach than it is the GM. 

[oddoublee]

This team will probably finish outside of the playoffs by double digit points 3 out of 4 years.

Some players are playing better under DG. But the team, as a whole, is more the same. 

Coaches don't last long in the NHL. The 'team' is not responding to DG. Maybe some players...but not the 'team'.

Time for a change.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, oddoublee said:

This team will probably finish outside of the playoffs by double digit points 3 out of 4 years.

Some players are playing better under DG. But the team, as a whole, is more the same. 

Coaches don't last long in the NHL. The 'team' is not responding to DG. Maybe some players...but not the 'team'.

Time for a change.

Thier points have increased every year under Don, prior to this one. Maybe he's lost the room, I couldn't say. I won't be sad if he goes but there's been no reason to doubt him prior to this season. 

[sabremike]

I get Granato is a real nice guy and everyone likes him but so was Rich Kotite and would you want him as head coach of the Bills? 

[Sabre The Cup]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Answer to the problem…
 

1 - Pegula sells the team

2 - New Owner fires Adams, Granato and all of his assistants.

3 - New Owner hires experienced hockey man to be PoHO.

4 - PoHO hires experienced GM, who in turn hires an experienced HC(at the NHL level).

5 - GM & HC determine that this isn’t a playoff roster, and setup a plan to fix it. No one is untouchable…NO ONE.  

6 - Playoffs are the minimum goal in 24-25.  

All is necessary except the President. No need to have another major ego in the room. 
 

Best case scenario is that the new owner has a good eye and a good ear from around the league and can figure out the GM on his own. Keep in mind lots of owners are billionaires with great business sense and great eye for general talent. They’re not all clueless like the Pegulas. 
 

[inkman]

3 hours ago, tom webster said:

You all owe this to LabattBlue, one of my favorite posters by the way.

I asked a question in a couple of different threads. Are we holding KA and DG responsible for the 9 years before they were put in charge instead of just the four years or so they have been here. Blue responded like the other poster with the usual, it's the NHL, 'everyone makes the playoffs." "parity" reigns, so on and so forth.

Today I had lunch with someone with an educated opinion so I started in on the discussion at which point he smiled and talked about how he's been pushing this story to people he perceived had the time to do the kind of research this topic probably needs.

Anyway, here is the abridged version.

After tearing down the whole organization, KA kept Ralph to start the 56 game, 20/21 season before replacing him with DG ezactly half way between the 56 games.

Out of the 16 teams that made the playoffs that year, 7 have made the playoffs all four years since then. 3 of them have made it three of the four years and three more have made it the last three years.

That leaves you with four teams who made the playoffs once in these four year and two likely to this year;

1) Montreal - a true anamoly

2) Calgary - a team on a rise set back byTkaczuk and other contract issues

3) Seattle - went all in on year two but now have taken a major step back

4) New Jersey - considered a year ahead of Buffalo last year, they too have taken a step back

5) Philly - a "Torts" surge likely to last this year but no excuses, they continue to win.

6) Vancouver - they've been out of the playoffs since 2014/2015 I believe

Further, 

Out of the bottom ten teams from KA's first year;

Six are behind Buffalo this year

LA has become a perenial playoff team but where well on their way when Buffalo started the rebuild.

New Jersey made it last year.

Detroit may this year.

I know, I know, It still sucks, none of this matters and we are all tired of waiting but the truth is, its not like all the other organizations are passing them by. They are holding their own, have the youngest roster in the NHL, apparently a boatload of prospects and other teams are nearing the end of their run, except Boston who somehow never rettreats. Like it or not, they can make a good case for earning another year.

 

Fire away.

 

Man is this not gonna be popular.  That said, they are back next season regardless. 

[Demoted]

There is no excuse 4 years is WAY more than enough.

Everyone you trade away gets better and wins... expansion teams have put together winning teams in quicker time.

Edited March 27 by Demoted

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Demoted said:

There is no excuse 4 years is WAY more than enough.

Absolutely agree, and it’s really that simple. But I’d give Adams another year. He’s got a shot at “better late than never.” 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, tom webster said:

You all owe this to LabattBlue, one of my favorite posters by the way.

I asked a question in a couple of different threads. Are we holding KA and DG responsible for the 9 years before they were put in charge instead of just the four years or so they have been here. Blue responded like the other poster with the usual, it's the NHL, 'everyone makes the playoffs." "parity" reigns, so on and so forth.

Today I had lunch with someone with an educated opinion so I started in on the discussion at which point he smiled and talked about how he's been pushing this story to people he perceived had the time to do the kind of research this topic probably needs.

Anyway, here is the abridged version.

After tearing down the whole organization, KA kept Ralph to start the 56 game, 20/21 season before replacing him with DG ezactly half way between the 56 games.

Out of the 16 teams that made the playoffs that year, 7 have made the playoffs all four years since then. 3 of them have made it three of the four years and three more have made it the last three years.

That leaves you with four teams who made the playoffs once in these four year and two likely to this year;

1) Montreal - a true anamoly

2) Calgary - a team on a rise set back byTkaczuk and other contract issues

3) Seattle - went all in on year two but now have taken a major step back

4) New Jersey - considered a year ahead of Buffalo last year, they too have taken a step back

5) Philly - a "Torts" surge likely to last this year but no excuses, they continue to win.

6) Vancouver - they've been out of the playoffs since 2014/2015 I believe

Further, 

Out of the bottom ten teams from KA's first year;

Six are behind Buffalo this year

LA has become a perenial playoff team but where well on their way when Buffalo started the rebuild.

New Jersey made it last year.

Detroit may this year.

I know, I know, It still sucks, none of this matters and we are all tired of waiting but the truth is, its not like all the other organizations are passing them by. They are holding their own, have the youngest roster in the NHL, apparently a boatload of prospects and other teams are nearing the end of their run, except Boston who somehow never rettreats. Like it or not, they can make a good case for earning another year.

 

Fire away.

 

So Adams has been better than 6 teams out of 32?   That’s not good any way you present it.  .  

[RochesterExpat]

I don’t understand how any reasonable person acting in good faith can suggest we shouldn’t expect more after 4 years. They have both failed at their jobs. That being said, GMKA should get one more season and I fully expect he will since I don’t see Pegula firing the GM that’s been a good ol’ yes man since hiring. And, for that matter, I don’t see Pegula forcing GMKA’s hand to fire DG either. 

I should add I don’t hate GMKA or anything. I just won’t ignore that he’s responsible for building a winning roster at the end of the season and the reality is that GMKA is too much of an optimist and needs some kind of Yin to his Yang (believing too much in analytics and young unproven players, etc). He has certainly improved since he came in (Byram is not “unproven” despite his age and he finally waived Comrie to force the starter spot), but the Sabres have also been hurt by his inexperienced optimism. Case in point: leaning on Levi this season to be a 1A. I got flamed in September for suggesting the only way Buffalo made the playoffs this season was if Levi won the Calder. Of course, I’m sure the same fountain of optimism fans will now flame me for questioning his goaltending genius since he turned UPL into a starter. They’ll just ignore an entire half of a season to justify it in the process—much like they’ll ignore a decade of incompetence to suggest people who are upset with the franchise are somehow not real fans.

GMKA could use a president of hockey ops or similar to counterbalance his optimistic nature and someone with experience he can lean on. It’s also the only move I could see Pegula making even if I personally don’t like the concept of yet another voice in the room. I think GMKA has potential to be a good GM, but he needs some kind of mentoring and I don’t want to wait for him to develop at the expense of the franchise.

As for DG, he should be let go, but I don’t expect it to happen. At the very minimum, the assistants need to be shown the door. I really think the team would be a playoff team this season if we simply promoted Mike Weber and Michael Peca to Buffalo and didn’t have Marty Wilford, Matt Ellis and Jason Christie sitting on the benches. The only assistant to keep is Mike Bales.

I guess that’s the fantasy land I’d like to see. If DG stays, Mike Weber, Michael Peca, and Mike Bales are the assistants and they just go and find a fourth Mike with real experience winning at the NHL level. Then we see how the team looks at the start of next season and if the team has a slow start, fire DG and give Peca the interim coaching gig to see how he handles it.

Edited March 27 by RochesterExpat

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Answer to the problem…
 

1 - Pegula sells the team

2 - New Owner fires Adams, Granato and all of his assistants.

3 - New Owner hires experienced hockey man to be PoHO.

4 - PoHO hires experienced GM, who in turn hires an experienced HC(at the NHL level).

5 - GM & HC determine that this isn’t a playoff roster, and setup a plan to fix it. No one is untouchable…NO ONE.  

6 - Playoffs are the minimum goal in 24-25.  

Any GM you hire is going to sell the owner on a minimum 2-year window to get "his/her team" on the ice via trade/UFA (and likely 3 years). If the owner counters that the GM has one year to make the playoffs, the GM will walk away from the job offer.

Flip-flopping GM directions too quickly is how you get a heavy GMTM lineup replaced by an all-speed puck-moving defense JBott lineup with no continuity and another hard reset.

[North Buffalo]

The way the Sabres are built and had to be built given the previous 9 years I'd give DG one more year.  Or at least half a year and if they arent in a playoff position close to the all star break... buh bye..  that being said they are so young... Get rid of Skinner... again not sure who is a free agent but I'd like to see at least one top six possibly two top forward signings.  D depth and guys gonna be pushing from behind shortly... Now can DG actually be a bench coach not just a strategist and developer?  Jury is is still out in my mind...

Edited March 27 by North Buffalo

[RochesterExpat]

6 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

again not sure who is a free agent but I'd like to see at least one top six possibly two top forward signings.

There’s this Sam Reinhart fella I’ve been hearing a lot about who will be a UFA this off-season…

[GASabresIUFAN]

Kevyn and Don, should we really expect more after four years?

Yes.

It's not like they had nothing to work with when they got here.  

Cozens, Montour, Reinhart, Eichel, Dahlin, Ullmark, Samuelsson, Ryan Johnson, Casey Mittelstadt, Tage Thompson, Jeff Skinner, UPL, and Bryson were all in the system or already on the Sabres when he arrived.  That's the makings of a pretty fine hockey club had he and the Sabres stuck with it.   They (He and TP) decided to jettison the "old" core of Reinhart, Montour, Risto and Eichel after the RK debacle which is fine, but they have to live with the consequences. 

Besides that, the Sabres should have been a playoff team for the last two seasons.  Had Adams simply invested in some decent goalies while the prospects developed this team would have made the playoffs in 22/23 and likely would have built of that success this season and be where Detroit is right now. 

So yes, we should have expected more and they should have delivered more. 

Edited March 27 by GASabresIUFAN

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Yes to both, but I wouldn't be upset if Don was let go. I think Adams is doing it the right way with his draft and develop strategy. The fact I'm in a small minority reinforces my belief. At the start of the season almost everyone on here wanted 6K waived, he's now a top 10 goalie in the league. 18 months ago most people on here wanted Mitts waived, never forgiving him for not being able to do a pull-up at the combine. Adams flipped him for a top pair d-man entering his prime, a good(possibly great) hockey trade that many said he couldn't/wouldn't pull off. A few years ago the majority on here wanted Tage waived, never forgiving him for O'Rielly winning the cup. He's a damn good player on a long term team friendly contract. We're on the right path, the usual suspects telling me I'm wrong only means I'm right. 

Ftr, I’m not convinced that BB-4 is a first pair d man yet (not on a cup contender, anyway.) Also, while Tage has looked a lot better of late, he has to show me a lot more (especially before the season is lost) to convince me that he is part of a cup contending team.

It’s amazing to me just how many posters in the past 13 years have been “right” about the future,… until they weren’t.

We should expect more.

[atoq]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

6) Vancouver - they've been out of the playoffs since 2014/2015 I believe

Strange point to make about Vancouver in a post about how we shouldn't focus too much on the distant past with the Sabres.  More relevant with Vancouver is that they are one of the top teams in the league this year, but that doesn't back up the "other organizations aren't passing us by" conclusion you're straining for.

Edited March 27 by atoq

[dudacek]

Absolutely we should have expected more from this year.

And that’s even if you subscribe to my personal belief that this is more realistically described as year 3 of a ripped-down-to-the-studs rebuild. (People seem to forget that we started ‘Adams 2.0’ with our top 6 forwards coming off seasons of 13, 10, 8, 7, 4 and 2 goals, respectively, and for 3 of those guys, those were career bests).

Last year’s Sabres team missed the playoffs by just 1 point coming off 2 years of steady improvement. It clearly had talent given the offence it had just put up. It was resilient, fast and explosive. Its holes — goaltending, PK, commitment to team defence, stoutness up front, and depth on the blue line were pretty obvious and should have been fixable.

Ironically, the team looks to have fixed, or at least improved, most of those holes. But in the process it got slower and easier to frustrate.

Sabrespace has wrongly excoriated this team as being terrible when really it’s kinda like it was last year — just a different shade of mediocre.

But the pieces and the opportunities were there last summer for Adams and Granato to make this year something more and they were unable to do so. Sure the core is callow, but Adams did not bring in the right pieces, nor Granato push the right buttons to smooth or mask the pitfalls of that reality.

I can’t see any way to describe this year as anything other than a failure. And they have to own that.

Edited March 27 by dudacek