Whose idea was the tank and whose decision was it?

[GASabresIUFAN]

So those teams were just really really bad and it allowed them to get elite level talent. The only difference being they were bad on accident and we were bad on purpose. Not sure how being bad through incompetence is any better than at least formulating a plan to reap the benefits you've seen gifted to someone else through that incompetence.

I think you and I may be fighting a losing battle.  I for one and glad they realized that the team was in a hopeless downward spiral and tried to do something about it.  The sad part is, unlike the Poile in NSH, we had DR, Patty, Pegula and TM making decisions for us.  Bad management = Bad Results.

 

Since 2004 Nsh has uncovered the following gems in the 4th or later rds Arvidsson, Rinne, Ekholm and C Smith,  How many have our GMs/Scouts uncovered of that quality?  ZERO!  Paul Byron is probably the best and he was shipped out to Calg after only 8 games with the Sabres.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

So those teams were just really really bad and it allowed them to get elite level talent. The only difference being they were bad on accident and we were bad on purpose. Not sure how being bad through incompetence is any better than at least formulating a plan to reap the benefits you've seen gifted to someone else through that incompetence.

 

There is a world of difference.

 

I could live with an owner that kept a not very good GM.  I would not be happy, but I would not be anywhere near where I am now ... living with the aftermath of an owner that bought into the notion of purposely building (or dismantling) a team to fail with that intention.  I am furious with TP and whoever convinced him of the merits of tanking and for the GM to actually do it.  Props to Patty for getting out.

[Weave]

They drafted over a 5 year period 5th, 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd, getting Whitney, Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal.  This was a tank pure and simple.

By comparison the Sabres have drafted 8th, 2nd. 2nd, 8th and 8th.  Not exactly the same thing.

 

They were epically bad for 4 of those seasons, but you aren't tanking if you are icing a roster including Lemieux, Kovalev, Lang, and Kasperitis, or icing Lemieux, Kovalev, Straka, Daigle,

 

or icing Malone, Tarnstrom, Morozov....... OK they bottomed out here, but were also going through bankruptcy, not angling for drafting first overall.  Remember, Crosby was drafted after a lockout in a lottery where Buffalo had as many balls as Pittsburgh did.

I think you and I may be fighting a losing battle.  I for one and glad they realized that the team was in a hopeless downward spiral and tried to do something about it.  The sad part is, unlike the Poile in NSH, we had DR, Patty, Pegula and TM making decisions for us.  Bad management = Bad Results.

 

Since 2004 Nsh has uncovered the following gems in the 4th or later rds Arvidsson, Rinne, Ekholm and C Smith,  How many have our GMs/Scouts uncovered of that quality?  ZERO!  Paul Byron is probably the best and he was shipped out to Calg after only 8 games with the Sabres.

 

It is a losing battle.  We fundamentally disagree that 1. tanking and rebuilding from nothing is a strategy with more risk than benefit and 2. losing on purpose is always disrespectful to the fans (league-wide).

 

The proper response to the tailspin post-Drury/Briere was to immediately embark on a GM search to identify the guy that is capable of turning the spin.

[WildCard]

I think you and I may be fighting a losing battle.  I for one and glad they realized that the team was in a hopeless downward spiral and tried to do something about it.  The sad part is, unlike the Poile in NSH, we had DR, Patty, Pegula and TM making decisions for us.  Bad management = Bad Results.

 

Since 2004 Nsh has uncovered the following gems in the 4th or later rds Arvidsson, Rinne, Ekholm and C Smith,  How many have our GMs/Scouts uncovered of that quality?  ZERO!  Paul Byron is probably the best and he was shipped out to Calg after only 8 games with the Sabres.

Probably, but it's been fun. I think at this point everyone is so entrenched in their side from literally years of arguing this that nobody is going to budge. Still, one of the better conversations I've had on here in a year or so

 

That being said, I'm done with it :lol:

[Taro T]

Pittsburgh didn't tank to get Crosby. They won a lottery following a year in which the NHL did not play.

 

And I love the optimism, but comparing Reino to Toews is insane.

Pittsburgh didn't tank for Crosby specifically, but most certainly tanked. They sold off pretty much the entire '01 team that snuck past the Hasek-led Sabres. Edited March 29, 2018 by Taro T

[Sabel79]

If you look at it, those Pittsburgh teams can be looked as as less tanking and more post-Rigas pre-OSP Sabres... which is philosophically no different. Winning was never on the agenda. And the pass given because “they didn’t tank in that season that didn’t happen to win the Crosby lottery” narrative is, a bit pearls for swine, IMHO.

[Randall Flagg]

Probably, but it's been fun. I think at this point everyone is so entrenched in their side from literally years of arguing this that nobody is going to budge. Still, one of the better conversations I've had on here in a year or so

 

That being said, I'm done with it :lol:

I think we can all get together in hoping that we never have to have a reason to debate the topic again.

[Crusader1969]

I don't believe for a second that acquiring depth takes years and years and years to do. It may take that long because teams make bad moves, sure, but it is not just something that is just a given. I understand it is very, very hard to build depth, that only makes tanking all the more attractive to me. Where did your Winnipeg, and Nashville, depth come from? From hitting on draft picks. You say creating depth takes so long because it's difficult and the chances at hitting on players is low. Well then it seems like the best way to shorten the time frame is by getting yourself the best chances and the most chances at successfully "guessing right". 

 

Being a GM is hard. Why wouldn't I give a GM all of the possible ammo we can in order to make those decisions easier, and to make them more frequent? 

 

Exactly. Do just what Botterill is doing, and what made Pittsburgh Pittsburgh. Create a farm system, don't rush the kids, let them play and win together in the minors, and draft well. We complained about Darcy doing the same thing with Grigorenko as well. The only time he was successful at a rebuild, he built a team in Rochester and let them mature/win together

 

Having a world class goalie like Rinne and the emergence of Hellebuyck hasn't hurt the Preds and Jets. Hopefully, Ullmark will finally be that guy for the Sabres

[SwampD]

Anyone who chooses to lose is a loser. Anyone who agrees with that is also a loser.

[WildCard]

Anyone who chooses to lose is a loser. Anyone who agrees with that is also a loser.

I mean by that logic anyone who retreats is a coward

[Weave]

I mean by that logic anyone who retreats is a coward

 

Loser say what?

[WildCard]

Loser say what?

Dahlin!

[Weave]

Dahlin!

 

Movie reference, you hoser.

[WildCard]

Movie reference, you hoser.

Yeah I know, take off eh

[nfreeman]

Even with as much as I hate the tank, I would freaking love to win the lottery this year and for Dahlin and Casey to become stars for the Sabres.

[darksabre]

Even with as much as I hate the tank, I would freaking love to win the lottery this year and for Dahlin and Casey to become stars for the Sabres.

We deserve this.

[Thorny]

Here is my Pi moment: Barzal is a selfish ###### who will score points but ultimately disappoint as a leader and franchise centre when JT leaves. He will settle partway between Seguin in Dallas and Drouin in Montreal.

(Which oddly enough is where you’d have to put Jack Eichel so far.)

Score more points than Jack? I'd take that bet, provided Jack can stay healthy.

[Andrew Amerk]

I don't agree with your phrase that added the words "the most" to make it seem the way it did.

 

Especially considering, this board back in 2014-15 was probably 75% pro-tankers, and the guys and gals who didn't like it post daily still and seem to be in the majority all of a sudden.

 

Swamp, d4rk seemed to be pretty against it with some qualifications, freeman, NS, chz, PA, We've. There are more I'm forgetting. Eleven?

 

That probably makes up over half of the posts any given day :lol:

 

So "hardcore" my ass. A huge chunk of "tankers" have flaked out and left a long time ago.

I was supportive of the tank, but only on the condition that it ended with Buffalo landing McDavid.

[Brawndo]

Even with as much as I hate the tank, I would freaking love to win the lottery this year and for Dahlin and Casey to become stars for the Sabres.

Well if we don’t, next year’s theme will be We paid our dues for Jack Hughes!

[WildCard]

Even with as much as I hate the tank, I would freaking love to win the lottery this year and for Dahlin and Casey to become stars for the Sabres.

I'm convinced we're getting him. Like d4rk said, we are bound to get some luck at some point

 

Then again, I was convinced we'd get McDaivd. Hell, the guys freaking house he lived in in the OHL were massive Sabres fans

[Taro T]

I'm convinced we're getting him. Like d4rk said, we are bound to get some luck at some point

Then again, I was convinced we'd get McDaivd. Hell, the guys freaking house he lived in in the OHL were massive Sabres fans

Before it became extremely likely they'd be the 1st ever 31st place team, felt that they'd luck into Dahlin w/ about the 4th best odds of doing so.

 

Now that they'll be 31st (almost assuredly) am expecting them to have the 3rd or 4th pick.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Odds 57% to pick 4th. Get ready for someone not named Zadina, Svechnikov or Dahlin. This draft is pretty clear. There is a 1-3 and then a gap in talent to the guys 4-9. How they perform in the NHL is another matter.

Edited March 30, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

Odds 57% to pick 4th. Get ready for someone not named Zadina, Svechnikov or Dahlin. This draft is pretty clear. There is a 1-3 and then a gap in talent to the guys 4-9. How they perform in the NHL is another matter.

 

BTW:  Svechnikov's brother plays for Detroit -- he played last night vs the Sabres.

[Drunkard]

Odds 57% to pick 4th. Get ready for someone not named Zadina, Svechnikov or Dahlin. This draft is pretty clear. There is a 1-3 and then a gap in talent to the guys 4-9. How they perform in the NHL is another matter.

Then we take Tkachuk and field a top 6 next year of consisting of Mittelstadt, Eichel, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Tkachuk, and Okposo. Not a bad crop of talent to choose from to fill out 2 scoring lines. After a few years we can hopefully hand Okposo's spot over to Nylander and move Kyle down to the 3rd line as he transitions into his 30's.

[pi2000]

Then we take Tkachuk and field a top 6 next year of consisting of Mittelstadt, Eichel, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Tkachuk, and Okposo. Not a bad crop of talent to choose from to fill out 2 scoring lines. After a few years we can hopefully hand Okposo's spot over to Nylander and move Kyle down to the 3rd line as he transitions into his 30's.

 

Tkachuck won't be ready next year, and by the looks of it, neither will MIttelstadt.    Okposo neads to figure out if wants to keep playing hockey for a career.   O'Reilly is likely traded, you can tell by his interviews that he's miserable here and doesn't see eye to eye with Housley.   

 

I'm afraid there is no immediate top 6 help on the horizon... maybe the bottom 6 improves.. and that's what I think will make the biggest difference moving forward.   Maybe guys like CJ Smith, Baptiste, Bailey, etc... can take that next step and have an impact offensively.