Housley with some really strong words postgame

[SwampD]

I remember. And the problem was Bylsma. We lost two years of constructive development under that schmuck. They didn't trust him because he was sh*t, he let them develop bad habits, GMTM let it all happen because he was out to lunch, and the supposed "leaders" on the team like Gionta weren't really leaders anyway, just patsies of Dan. Dysfunction Junction. 

 

Now Phil and Bots have to fix all of it. And they have to fix things that some of the players may not have even known were broken. How could some of these kids, coming from Juniors and College, know what things are supposed to be like in the Pros if their only pro experience is a sh*tshow? 

Just,...  :wallbash:

[Taro T]

Was listening to some former USA soccer players talk about the breakdown of Team USA in not qualifying for the World Cup. And, their position was the fire and passion and desire and "want to" has to come from the players themselves, not the coach. The desire to give 100% isn't something a coach should have to, or really can, coax out of a team. I think that applies to hockey as well. You can't have a coach motivate guys for 82 games. You're either the sort of player who will play hard every shift (a guy like Adam Mair comes to mind) or not. No system can fix lack of effort.

 

On that note, I think lack of effort is coming from some of our most talented players (Risto, Samson, etc.). That's a big problem and one we've seen before in Buffalo (e.g., the team in Lindy Ruff's last year was full of drifty drifters... and was captained by Pommer).

To an extent, I'd agree w/ this. But, in every walk of life, including athletics, the majority of people are followers. There are a handful of natural leaders that lead in a positive manner & just drag everyone along regardless of the situation. The guys like Messier. They just flat out get it right. There are others that can be part of the leadership but they need that guy to latch onto. Most of the rest, as previously stated, are followers - if a leader is propelling them along, they will do what's necessary. The problem is, if that leader isn't there, they'll just flounder along, or worse, they get behind a malcontent & follow THAT lead.

 

It appears that O'Reilly is in that 2nd category of leader. Probably Okposo as well. Teams do need those guys. Hopefully, Eichel can be that 1st category of leader because at this point the team really needs it. Because if he's in the 2nd category or is a follower, this team is in trouble. It seems, to this observer that isn't privy to the dressing room, that the team will follow Eichel's lead. Now that he has a letter, he needs to not be a passenger & force the other guys to pedal as well.

 

You can get it done only having that 2nd category of leaders but you need more of them to develop that critical mass of followers moving the right way.

 

If the issue really is poor preparation, then I am even more ticked that the team kept Bylsma the 2nd year & also wish even more that they'd've gone after Gallant or Julien when they were available. Those guys instill the right habits & culture. Hopefully Housley can as well, or else the next 2 years are going to be long. At this point, he still gets the benefit of the doubt IMHO.

 

And the point about Bylsma was that, if it is poor preparation, he's the guy who let the young guys get away with it for 2 years &/or provided the reinforcements that allowed the bad habits to become more pronounced. Which is unforgivable with a young team.

 

If it isn't poor prep, well Housley at least stirred up an interesting discussion. :lol:

 

And, I don't believe this team has any Satans or Yashins, but if it does, they need to go yesterday.

[Pokey Jones]

Yup, I've said it from the beginning, the entire culture has to change. There are problems in that locker room, there are people who need to be weeded out. Who it is we can only speculate on but there are big internal issues and have been for a while. The entire culture has to be changed. 

[Weave]

Yup, I've said it from the beginning, the entire culture has to change. There are problems in that locker room, there are people who need to be weeded out. Who it is we can only speculate on but there are big internal issues and have been for a while. The entire culture has to be changed. 

 

Here's a clue.  This team had the same problem last season.  There has been huge turnover on the roster from last season.  Who's left?

 

Yes, some sacred cows are on that list.

 

Phil Housley has had this team for 4 months now.  It's time to stop pointing the finger at Dan Bylsma.  He didn't ruin anyone any more than Lindy Ruff ruined Zack Kassian or Luke Adam with abuse in practice.  These are who these players are.

[Radar]

Here's a clue.  This team had the same problem last season.  There has been huge turnover on the roster from last season.  Who's left?

 

Yes, some sacred cows are on that list.

 

Phil Housley has had this team for 4 months now.  It's time to stop pointing the finger at Dan Bylsma.  He didn't ruin anyone any more than Lindy Ruff ruined Zack Kassian or Luke Adam with abuse in practice.  These are who these players are.

Any problems there may be don't seem to be with the coach. Too easy to always blame coaching. That's why coaches are hired to be fired.

[Pokey Jones]

But the whole roster hasn't been turned over. The top names are the same top names. You think the guy making 1 million is going to keep busting his butt when the guys making 6, 8, 9 million aren't breaking a sweat? Your leaders have to lead and lead by example.  Why do you think there is no captain named? It's all kind of obvious. 

[PASabreFan]

But the whole roster hasn't been turned over. The top names are the same top names. You think the guy making 1 million is going to keep busting his butt when the guys making 6, 8, 9 million aren't breaking a sweat? Your leaders have to lead and lead by example.  Why do you think there is no captain named? It's all kind of obvious. 

Tag-teaming onto the hidden meaning of not naming a captain, anyone want to come down the rabbit hole with me and Pokey and Alex Jones? Maybe Phil is starting to set the stage for a housecleaning. Botterill might come along here eventually and make similar comments. Why wouldn't they want to swipe the roster of a bunch of Murray guys who aren't getting it done. Lehner, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Risto (though not a Murray guy), Bogosian, hard to put Kane in that category at the moment. If they feel they have the support of ownership, they could do an almost complete rebuild around Jack. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, that's for sure, and maybe Phil and Jason have already figured out what it is.

[Randall Flagg]

Tag-teaming onto the hidden meaning of not naming a captain, anyone want to come down the rabbit hole with me and Pokey and Alex Jones? Maybe Phil is starting to set the stage for a housecleaning. Botterill might come along here eventually and make similar comments. Why wouldn't they want to swipe the roster of a bunch of Murray guys who aren't getting it done. Lehner, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Risto (though not a Murray guy), Bogosian, hard to put Kane in that category at the moment. If they feel they have the support of ownership, they could do an almost complete rebuild around Jack. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, that's for sure, and maybe Phil and Jason have already figured out what it is.

Would you support a house-cleaning? Namely, would you trust their judgment, or would the almost-guarantee of 2-3 more mediocre-to-bad seasons be too much?

[PASabreFan]

Would you support a house-cleaning? Namely, would you trust their judgment, or would the almost-guarantee of 2-3 more mediocre-to-bad seasons be too much?

I'm getting there. I think if Terry is serious this time about giving his people time, they're almost owed the chance to remake the team in their image. Having said that, how do you even "houseclean"? It doesn't seem like there are many old-fashioned hockey trades early in seasons anymore. You'd be selling off Lehner and Kane at the deadline, I guess. Is ROR's contract tradeable? I don't know. I also don't know if such a housecleaning would mean several more bad seasons. But it might take time to turn this Titanic around. How much do they value the young players in Roch? Are they viewed as a new core along with Eichel? What is the trade value of Risto and Reino?

 

Too many questions. I slept in today uncharacteristically, then for some reason tried to go to bed at 8, and woke up at 11. And now I'm screwed. I have so many questions!

[Taro T]

I'm getting there. I think if Terry is serious this time about giving his people time, they're almost owed the chance to remake the team in their image. Having said that, how do you even "houseclean"? It doesn't seem like there are many old-fashioned hockey trades early in seasons anymore. You'd be selling off Lehner and Kane at the deadline, I guess. Is ROR's contract tradeable? I don't know. I also don't know if such a housecleaning would mean several more bad seasons. But it might take time to turn this Titanic around. How much do they value the young players in Roch? Are they viewed as a new core along with Eichel? What is the trade value of Risto and Reino?

 

Too many questions. I slept in today uncharacteristically, then for some reason tried to go to bed at 8, and woke up at 11. And now I'm screwed. I have so many questions!

Ambien is your friend. That, or truck loads of vodka. :lol:

[Randall Flagg]

I'm getting there. I think if Terry is serious this time about giving his people time, they're almost owed the chance to remake the team in their image. Having said that, how do you even "houseclean"? It doesn't seem like there are many old-fashioned hockey trades early in seasons anymore. You'd be selling off Lehner and Kane at the deadline, I guess. Is ROR's contract tradeable? I don't know. I also don't know if such a housecleaning would mean several more bad seasons. But it might take time to turn this Titanic around. How much do they value the young players in Roch? Are they viewed as a new core along with Eichel? What is the trade value of Risto and Reino?

 

Too many questions. I slept in today uncharacteristically, then for some reason tried to go to bed at 8, and woke up at 11. And now I'm screwed. I have so many questions!

So many questions. 

 

I've defaulted to a hope that's based in some sort of reality - when random NHL teams suddenly get good, I mean ones that didn't just influx a bunch of top 5 picks, but seasoned and traditionally disappointing teams, it often isn't with sweeping changes that their fans assumed were necessary the season before. Ottawa's roster last year was functionally identical to the disappointment that missed the playoffs the year before. Those fans were ready to blow up their sickly core as well. Nashville has been successful fairly recently but was looking pretty bleak in 2013. Dallas tinkers with a roster and alternates between horrible seasons and winning rounds with the same core essentially (and league-worst goaltending). The Rangers regularly fluctuate between an 8-10 seed and a conference finals/SCF team with minimal changes. The Islanders were a lock for a top 5 pick in 2015 when we had their first, until they made the playoffs on the back of two unheralded-at-the-time trades in September. 

 

So even if things look ugly with Okposo's/Pominville's/Bogosian's contracts and a bunch of scrubs like Pouliot, maybe by next November or even this coming March we're posting about how we can't believe this has happened and how we forgot how fun being good was.

[Pokey Jones]

I think they would move a lot of guys quickly BUT the problem will be the big contracts. Not a lot of teams are going to want to shell out for ROR or Okposo or Bogo (and definitely not Moulson). Kane can be moved later if they want and Reinhart can be since he is younger/cheaper at the moment but Murray thought this was all going to fall into place last year and so they are saddled with a situation that will take time to let some of these contracts run at least some of their course.

[matter2003]

It is very rare when PA & I agree.

 

And preparation is 100% on the coach. If he hasn't communicated his expectations for how the players prepare, that's on him. If he hasn't dealt out consequences to those who aren't prepared, that's on him, too.

How? Is he is supposed to force the players to stay and watch film until 2am? Apparently the same guys have been problems for 3 or 4 coaches now

[That Aud Smell]

How? Is he is supposed to force the players to stay and watch film until 2am? Apparently the same guys have been problems for 3 or 4 coaches now

As I think about it more, I tend to agree that a failure of proper preparation falls on the players more than the coaches. These guys are professionals. If they’re not sufficiently self-directed and focused, that’s on them.

[LTS]

As I think about it more, I tend to agree that a failure of proper preparation falls on the players more than the coaches. These guys are professionals. If they’re not sufficiently self-directed and focused, that’s on them.

 

 

If you don't read the stereo instructions and can't get your surround sound configured properly is it Yamaha's fault?  

 

I think that's about as succinctly as I can put it.

[dudacek]

Tag-teaming onto the hidden meaning of not naming a captain, anyone want to come down the rabbit hole with me and Pokey and Alex Jones? Maybe Phil is starting to set the stage for a housecleaning. Botterill might come along here eventually and make similar comments. Why wouldn't they want to swipe the roster of a bunch of Murray guys who aren't getting it done. Lehner, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Risto (though not a Murray guy), Bogosian, hard to put Kane in that category at the moment. If they feel they have the support of ownership, they could do an almost complete rebuild around Jack. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, that's for sure, and maybe Phil and Jason have already figured out what it is.

To me Botterill has been very methodical so far:

1) in a rather underplayed story, he radically overhauled the scouting and player development departments to address the poor pipeline from the farm

2) he signed a ton of depth players to create competition at the bottom of the roster and Rochester and told the kids to earn their spots.

3) he implemented a new vision for how the team should be run on and off the ice and hired Housley to implement

4) he removed the Bylsma and Gionta and lack of communication excuses and handed the leadership keys over to Murray's core

 

I'm not going to dismiss the idea that Housley could be made accountable for the poor start; he's a rookie coach and Jason will be watching to make sure he is capable of implementing the vision.

 

But don't kid yourself, this year is about evaluating exactly what he has and determining how those pieces are best utilized moving forward. Decisions will be made based on how players respond over the next few months to what he is trying to install. Murray's core is being watched very, very closely.

Edited October 19, 2017 by dudacek

[3putt]

If you don't read the stereo instructions and can't get your surround sound configured properly is it Yamaha's fault?  

 

I think that's about as succinctly as I can put it.

Interesting analogy.  As a stereo geek, I think reading the instructions gets you less than halfway there.  If your components are not suitable for each other, i.e. the impedance of the speakers makes them to hard to power for the amp, you will not get optimal sound.  Your room can have resonance issues and nulls where speaker placement becomes crucial.  Even a few inches or degrees can have a profound in impact.  You have to calibrate the distance from the amp so all speakers deliver the sound at the appropriate moment.  And your desire for a type of component say tubes vs solid state may not produce the synergy you want in the end.  If you want home theater it takes tinkering.  Theater in a box is easy but unfulfilling.  

 

It is on the players to be in shape, understand the game plan and execute.  Coaches are the the tinkerers.  The players can read the manual and be connected, it is the coaches who are responsible for getting the best possible sound out of the system.

[PASabreFan]

So many questions. 

 

I've defaulted to a hope that's based in some sort of reality - when random NHL teams suddenly get good, I mean ones that didn't just influx a bunch of top 5 picks, but seasoned and traditionally disappointing teams, it often isn't with sweeping changes that their fans assumed were necessary the season before. Ottawa's roster last year was functionally identical to the disappointment that missed the playoffs the year before. Those fans were ready to blow up their sickly core as well. Nashville has been successful fairly recently but was looking pretty bleak in 2013. Dallas tinkers with a roster and alternates between horrible seasons and winning rounds with the same core essentially (and league-worst goaltending). The Rangers regularly fluctuate between an 8-10 seed and a conference finals/SCF team with minimal changes. The Islanders were a lock for a top 5 pick in 2015 when we had their first, until they made the playoffs on the back of two unheralded-at-the-time trades in September. 

 

So even if things look ugly with Okposo's/Pominville's/Bogosian's contracts and a bunch of scrubs like Pouliot, maybe by next November or even this coming March we're posting about how we can't believe this has happened and how we forgot how fun being good was.

It could happen, but it's not the way the Sabres want to operate under Pegula. Pegula wants a dominant, elite team that wins and wins again. He's said as much. It's very grandiose and pie in the sky. This philosophy brought us Darcy's "suffering" speech and the tank. Darcy also said, "It's not about just making the playoffs." In other words, when average teams go all out and try to make the playoffs and catch lightning in a bottle ("blind ambition"), it's something to be pitied and looked down upon by the noble franchises like Buffalo, who are all about consistency excellence. The whole thing was predicated on getting McDavid and someone like Babcock. We thought we could replicate what Chicago and Pittsburgh did, but you can't.

 

It didn't work out, and it turns out we're just like the Islanders after all (but behind them at the moment). We're down there slumming with the teams that want to make the playoffs and give their fans a little thrill ride. How gauche. How cheap. Where we go from here is anyone's guess, but it sure looks like we're going to have to do it the old-fashioned way. Work your butt off just to be respectable, and then hope like everyone else that things click one spring and you can have a parade that people will remember for the rest of their lives.

 

But maybe we'll see another tank? The words of Ted Black haunt me. Something about the only way to get elite talent is through the draft. How's hockey heaven looking these days?

 

[nfreeman]

Here's a clue.  This team had the same problem last season.  There has been huge turnover on the roster from last season.  Who's left?

 

Yes, some sacred cows are on that list.

 

Phil Housley has had this team for 4 months now.  It's time to stop pointing the finger at Dan Bylsma.  He didn't ruin anyone any more than Lindy Ruff ruined Zack Kassian or Luke Adam with abuse in practice.  These are who these players are.

 

Yes indeed.

 

 

But the whole roster hasn't been turned over. The top names are the same top names. You think the guy making 1 million is going to keep busting his butt when the guys making 6, 8, 9 million aren't breaking a sweat? Your leaders have to lead and lead by example.  Why do you think there is no captain named? It's all kind of obvious. 

 

This too.

 

 

Tag-teaming onto the hidden meaning of not naming a captain, anyone want to come down the rabbit hole with me and Pokey and Alex Jones? Maybe Phil is starting to set the stage for a housecleaning. Botterill might come along here eventually and make similar comments. Why wouldn't they want to swipe the roster of a bunch of Murray guys who aren't getting it done. Lehner, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Risto (though not a Murray guy), Bogosian, hard to put Kane in that category at the moment. If they feel they have the support of ownership, they could do an almost complete rebuild around Jack. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark, that's for sure, and maybe Phil and Jason have already figured out what it is.

 

No one is going to trade for ROR's contract, but I can see some or all of these other guys getting shipped out.

 

But not until the end of the season.  Dudacek is right, IMHO, about JBott being methodical.  He'll evaluate everything, not panic, and take the steady progress approach.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

It's clear that this season is an evaluation season, as duda said above.

 

Players are given a chance to learn the new coaches and 'systems'.  If they do not come around by mid-to-late January then decisions will be made about what players stay and which do not.

 

I can say with certitude that the only player guaranteed to be staying is Eich.

[Doohickie]

Would you support a house-cleaning? Namely, would you trust their judgment, or would the almost-guarantee of 2-3 more mediocre-to-bad seasons be too much?

 

I don't see it as a house cleaning as such.  I see it as developing the team they want in Rochester (as is JBot's wont) and as they roll up to the NHL the non-performers are moved out.  The difference being that when you clean house, you have to refill those roster spots *now*.  We just saw under XGMTM that doesn't work; it leaves depth too thin and it messes up the normal development of prospects.

 

With the tank years there was a major house cleaning- lots of references to "the rotten core"- everyone had to go.  Everyone.  This time, I can see several existing players staying.  Some may be core; others may play supporting roles (right now Gorges and Pommer might be considered in the latter- expendable but serving a purpose at the moment).  So... housecleaning?  No.  Not revolution, but evolution.  And with evolution there may not be a core as such, just a continual pipeline set up from the farm to the NHL with occasional free agents/trades filling gaps in the pipeline.

 

It will take a while for the fan base to get used to the concept of actually developing a team instead of acquiring one.  Development takes longer, but I think the last few years have shown that in the context of an existing team with existing contracts against the cap, you can't simply acquire one.

 

(Vegas is the exception but that's because they didn't have the constraint of unsuccessful contracts and had access through the expansion draft of a good (not great) base of existing NHLers as well as first crack at free agency.  But don't worry, some of those players will top out and become the albatrosses of the Vegas cap structure in due time.)

[bob_sauve28]

He was positive in the end, but definitly sent a message that their prep was unaccceptable and that they would keep working on it.

They have to come out of the gate stronger

[Doohickie]

They have to come out of the gate stronger

 

That was included in his message.  And that's been true for years.

[LTS]

Interesting analogy.  As a stereo geek, I think reading the instructions gets you less than halfway there.  If your components are not suitable for each other, i.e. the impedance of the speakers makes them to hard to power for the amp, you will not get optimal sound.  Your room can have resonance issues and nulls where speaker placement becomes crucial.  Even a few inches or degrees can have a profound in impact.  You have to calibrate the distance from the amp so all speakers deliver the sound at the appropriate moment.  And your desire for a type of component say tubes vs solid state may not produce the synergy you want in the end.  If you want home theater it takes tinkering.  Theater in a box is easy but unfulfilling.  

 

It is on the players to be in shape, understand the game plan and execute.  Coaches are the the tinkerers.  The players can read the manual and be connected, it is the coaches who are responsible for getting the best possible sound out of the system.

 

The coach doesn't determine the components he has to work with.  The coach can only pull from the stock he was given.  Granted he does need to put them together properly.

 

The coach is the tinkerer but to make the analogy fit in your description the coach would tell the components where they need to be to be optimal based on reading the factors around them.  The components would have to move themselves there to create the successful configuration.

 

So to take it further, the coach provides the room design and the suggests the places for the components to be, but if the components don't look at the room guide ahead of time they'll spend too much time in the wrong positions trying to figure out where they are supposed to be.

[PromoTheRobot]

How much of that kind of leadership did Brian Gionta bring? Maybe they cut him loose without having someone to fill that role?