Duchene to Sabres?

[LGR4GM]

There are certainly reasons to be concerned about Duchene.  But as GB points out, the Avs were toxic last year, and Duchene has been a borderline NHL star for 8 years (7 if you don't want to include last year, which is reasonable).  He has 5 20-goal seasons (1 with 30) and 5 55-point seasons (2 with 67+).  He is a terrific skater and a Canadian Olympian, and is only 26.  I think getting him now would probably be buying him when his value is at its low point.

 

I have no desire either to give up on Reino before we see what he can do in a non-toxic environment.  But there have been lengthy stretches in which he's been completely ineffective.  He's also a below-average skater for an NHL forward and the Sabres need more speed.  They also need more 5-on-5 scoring.

 

I think Reino-for-Duchene would be a significant upgrade.

Not true at all anymore. Reinhart has average speed and above average footwork. 

 

I think it would be a downgrade. One of them is 26 turning 27 and we know what he brings. The other is 21 turning 22 about to play the breakout year. Also Reinhart is cost controlled unlike Duchene who could ask for 8mil in 2 years. I'm not paying a 28yr old Duchene 8mil for 7 years when I can pay a 22 year old Reinhart 6mil for 8 years. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

Not true at all anymore. Reinhart has average speed and above average footwork. 

 

I think it would be a downgrade. One of them is 26 turning 27 and we know what he brings. The other is 21 turning 22 about to play the breakout year. Also Reinhart is cost controlled unlike Duchene who could ask for 8mil in 2 years. I'm not paying a 28yr old Duchene 8mil for 7 years when I can pay a 22 year old Reinhart 6mil for 8 years. 

I'd want Duchene + for Reinhart

[7+6=13]

You misunderstand me here. Kane won't pull the room apart but I could see him pouting and quitting. His work ethic is already questionable and inconsistent. He has spurts but seems moody at best and can take a shift or a night off at any time. He'll just quit trying at all and the trade value will plummet.

 

Reinhart is a bigger problem and could be trouble to the room since he is close to ###### ice. 

 

 

(change that to Eichel off ice then, since I apparently can't say it the original way) lol

 

What did I misunderstand?  You said  - "he will pout and you'll have to trade him fast or that locker room will fall apart totally."

 

 

Now you said " he won't pull the room apart ".  I don't think I have a comprehension issue.

 

 

I can tell you know hockey but you put a lot of guess work in too.

[nfreeman]

Not true at all anymore. Reinhart has average speed and above average footwork. 

 

I think it would be a downgrade. One of them is 26 turning 27 and we know what he brings. The other is 21 turning 22 about to play the breakout year. Also Reinhart is cost controlled unlike Duchene who could ask for 8mil in 2 years. I'm not paying a 28yr old Duchene 8mil for 7 years when I can pay a 22 year old Reinhart 6mil for 8 years. 

 

Well, there's no way to get a definitive ruling on this, but I don't agree.  I think he's the slowest forward on the Sabres.  I also don't know what you mean by "footwork."

[LGR4GM]

Well, there's no way to get a definitive ruling on this, but I don't agree.  I think he's the slowest forward on the Sabres.  I also don't know what you mean by "footwork."

skating is 2 things. First is speed. Bogosian has speed. Second is footwork or agility. Tyler Myers is a great example of player lacking agility/footwork. Casey Mittelstadt is a perfect example of a player with amazing agility/footwork.  Reinhart I think is just above average with his agility. He doesn't get tangled up with himself and he changes directions easily. He has average speed. 

[7+6=13]

I'm not doing anything drastic for the now as it relates to giving up assets.  Everything I want this team to do is for Eichel in his prime.  We did enough for the now with Pominvile and bringing in some defensive help, etc.  I want and think we can make the playoffs but I'm more interested in being cup contenders when Eichel is 23-30. 

 

 

I'm not giving up any young prospects that we don't know what they'll be yet.  I want them in our organization when we find that out. 

[dudacek]

Well, there's no way to get a definitive ruling on this, but I don't agree.  I think he's the slowest forward on the Sabres.  I also don't know what you mean by "footwork."

Seriously?

He's faster than Larsson and Moulson, and much more effective than DLo.

Also think he is on par with O'Reilly and Okposo, although he lacks the latter's power and the former's energy.

Not to mention he's always in the right position, making the speed mostly moot.

 

He doesn't have the ability to barrel down the wing like Kane, which can be an issue on the rush.

Which Wouldn't be an issue of course if he's playing the position he's best suited for.

[nfreeman]

Seriously?

He's faster than Larsson and Moulson, and much more effective than DLo.

Also think he is on par with O'Reilly and Okposo, although he lacks the latter's power and the former's energy.

Not to mention he's always in the right position, making the speed mostly moot.

 

He doesn't have the ability to barrel down the wing like Kane, which can be an issue on the rush.

Which Wouldn't be an issue of course if he's playing the position he's best suited for.

 

Well, I agree on Moulson (kinda wasn't including him in current Sabres forwards, but I'm happy to concede on that), but not on Larsson, ROR or KO. 

 

I agree that Larsson, ROR and KO aren't particularly fast -- which is one of the reasons that a Reino-for-Duchene swap, which would clearly upgrade team speed, is interesting.

[Georgia Blizzard]

Well, I agree on Moulson (kinda wasn't including him in current Sabres forwards, but I'm happy to concede on that), but not on Larsson, ROR or KO. 

 

I agree that Larsson, ROR and KO aren't particularly fast -- which is one of the reasons that a Reino-for-Duchene swap, which would clearly upgrade team speed, is interesting.

 

Not to muddy the waters, but usually when someone says he's an "average" anything at the pro level, means he's below average -- the fact that Moulson, Larsson were mentioned and ROR and Okposo were offered, says right away that more are faster than are slower

 

Having said that, speed alone is not the measuring stick

 

He might be slower but he probably plays faster because of his footwork, agility and most importantly his hockey IQ

 

Similar to a WR in football, I don't pay too much attention to a straight line 40-speed as I do at how fast does he run on the field when he rarely goes straight and always has defenders draped all over him

[dudacek]

Good call on "average"

For me, a better word for Sam's skating would be adequate - not a strength, but not a liability either.

[Rasmus_]

Duchene hasn't done much of anything lately.  On pure peripherals he's more likely a better player.  However, when you consider he's entering his second contract for $$.  I'm just not sure we need to acquire him.  I'd just rather look elsewhere.  I don't want to move Guhle in any deal for a Duchene.  Unless we get a Duchene type return for Evander Kane (a top flight defensive prospect and assets).  Pass.   

[erickompositör72]

Good call on "average"

For me, a better word for Sam's skating would be adequate - not a strength, but not a liability either.

 

I think it was a liability last season. Consider our zone entry problems. When people like Reinhart or Foligno were on the ice, opposing d-men knew they weren't going to get beat and could play more aggressively in the neutral zone, etc. I think it affected our zone entries in a big way.

 

Unless we get a Duchene type return for Evander Kane (a top flight defensive prospect and assets).  Pass.   

 

Also, that's assuming the team really needs something like that. I think, if our current d corps has success, there is no need to consider letting someone like Kane go. Ideally, Kane also puts up good numbers, establishes chemistry, and signs an extension during the season  :flirt:

[nfreeman]

Not to muddy the waters, but usually when someone says he's an "average" anything at the pro level, means he's below average -- the fact that Moulson, Larsson were mentioned and ROR and Okposo were offered, says right away that more are faster than are slower

 

Having said that, speed alone is not the measuring stick

 

He might be slower but he probably plays faster because of his footwork, agility and most importantly his hockey IQ

 

Similar to a WR in football, I don't pay too much attention to a straight line 40-speed as I do at how fast does he run on the field when he rarely goes straight and always has defenders draped all over him

 

Good post, but what's with the lack of periods?

 

 

Good call on "average"

For me, a better word for Sam's skating would be adequate - not a strength, but not a liability either.

 

I kinda think it is a liability, especially in OT and 4-on-4 situations.

 

 

Duchene hasn't done much of anything lately.  On pure peripherals he's more likely a better player.  However, when you consider he's entering his second contract for $$.  I'm just not sure we need to acquire him.  I'd just rather look elsewhere.  I don't want to move Guhle in any deal for a Duchene.  Unless we get a Duchene type return for Evander Kane (a top flight defensive prospect and assets).  Pass.   

 

He had 30 goals the season before last.

 

As for Guhle, I'd like to see how he develops, but I think he's getting a bit overhyped.  I cringe every time I hear Hammy rave about him -- comparing his skating to Paul Coffey, saying he "dominated" the prospects tournament -- both are ridiculous assessments, IMHO.

 

 

I think it was a liability last season. Consider our zone entry problems. When people like Reinhart or Foligno were on the ice, opposing d-men knew they weren't going to get beat and could play more aggressively in the neutral zone, etc. I think it affected our zone entries in a big way.

 

Good call.

[Georgia Blizzard]

Good post, but what's with the lack of periods?

 

 

 

I kinda think it is a liability, especially in OT and 4-on-4 situations.

 

 

 

He had 30 goals the season before last.

 

As for Guhle, I'd like to see how he develops, but I think he's getting a bit overhyped.  I cringe every time I hear Hammy rave about him -- comparing his skating to Paul Coffey, saying he "dominated" the prospects tournament -- both are ridiculous assessments, IMHO.

 

 

 

Good call.

 

I. don't. know. I. think. it's. saving. characters. from. texting. too. much.

[Taro T]

I think it was a liability last season. Consider our zone entry problems. When people like Reinhart or Foligno were on the ice, opposing d-men knew they weren't going to get beat and could play more aggressively in the neutral zone, etc. I think it affected our zone entries in a big way.

 

 

 

Also, that's assuming the team really needs something like that. I think, if our current d corps has success, there is no need to consider letting someone like Kane go. Ideally, Kane also puts up good numbers, establishes chemistry, and signs an extension during the season  :flirt:

That Bylsma chose a REALLY bad zone entry system last year should not be held against him (nor Moulson, for that matter.) It's not Sam nor Matt's fault that they were unable to retrieve pucks that they shouldn't have been lead forecheckers for in the 1st place.

[erickompositör72]

That Bylsma chose a REALLY bad zone entry system last year should not be held against him (nor Moulson, for that matter.) It's not Sam nor Matt's fault that they were unable to retrieve pucks that they shouldn't have been lead forecheckers for in the 1st place.

 

I agree- I also think Samson at center supported by wingers with speed would be a win-win. But doesn't change the fact that I think there are multiple scenarios in which Samson's lack of speed could, indeed, be a liability.

[Taro T]

I agree- I also think Samson at center supported by wingers with speed would be a win-win. But doesn't change the fact that I think there are multiple scenarios in which Samson's lack of speed could, indeed, be a liability.

Of course there are. But there are even more situations, most of which involve good coaching, where it wouldn't be for the majority of the time.

[erickompositör72]

again, I agree

[Thorny]

Lol! What? Kane has work ethic issues? GTFOOH. You need to put down the pipe.

Giving the pipe a bad name, here.

 

Just kidding, I enjoy your posts, Pokey.

 

How about Nylander, Guhle, Moulson and the 2018 #2?

 

Or Reino, Moulson and the 2018 #2?

 

Or Reino, Guhle, Moulson and the 2018 #2 for Duchene and Zadorov?

 

I would do any of those.

 

Definitely wouldn't trade Reinhart for Duchene, when Reinhart's stats are likely to be trending up, and Duchene's down, at least relatively soon. Reinhart is a better timeline fit, with negligible statistical difference between the two players last year.

 

I also don't want to load up on Avs.

 

Not true at all anymore. Reinhart has average speed and above average footwork. 

 

I think it would be a downgrade. One of them is 26 turning 27 and we know what he brings. The other is 21 turning 22 about to play the breakout year. Also Reinhart is cost controlled unlike Duchene who could ask for 8mil in 2 years. I'm not paying a 28yr old Duchene 8mil for 7 years when I can pay a 22 year old Reinhart 6mil for 8 years.

 

 

 

This.

 

Good call on "average"

For me, a better word for Sam's skating would be adequate - not a strength, but not a liability either.

I like the term "adequate" as well, here.

[TrueBlueGED]

Matt Duchene is one of those guys who should be a lot better than he is. He's a very good offensive player, but he should be a bonafide star with his skills. At this point in his career I'm not willing to give him a pass "because Colorado."

[3putt]

Colorado is to be skied, fished and fleeced.  Duchesne for Dlo?  Sure.  Duchesne and Makar for Girgs.  Bring it on.  Samson is more valuable to us right now and will be in the future whether as a cog or a piece that returns a top flight d.

[Pokey Jones]

Jeez, I mixed up a timeline from 10 years ago............omg, well throw it all away then. 

 

The point still holds, whether signed or not, they knew they didn't have the money to sign all 3 that was the point. 

 

Look at a right now example of the potential problem. Edmonton. Chiarelli screwed up the cap in Boston, and he's doing it again in Edmonton. With the money committed to McDavid and Draisityl (no, I don't know how to spell it and I don't care) Nugent Hopkins is now the 3rd line center at about 6 million and that's being talked about as unsustainable. The exact same thing will happen if you have Reinhart as a #3 center and so in a couple years the cap will become a problem here as well and we're not even good yet!  

 

So, the solution is not to think of Reinhart as a #3 center cause that situation won't be possible to maintain, you're better off to trade him while he has upside value to some people - unless he actually is good enough to be on the top lines, which I don't think he is. Simple as that. 

 

Now go ahead and nitpick some detail and ignore the point, you know you want to............... 

[korab rules]

Jeez, I mixed up a timeline from 10 years ago............omg, well throw it all away then.

 

The point still holds, whether signed or not, they knew they didn't have the money to sign all 3 that was the point.

 

Look at a right now example of the potential problem. Edmonton. Chiarelli screwed up the cap in Boston, and he's doing it again in Edmonton. With the money committed to McDavid and Draisityl (no, I don't know how to spell it and I don't care) Nugent Hopkins is now the 3rd line center at about 6 million and that's being talked about as unsustainable. The exact same thing will happen if you have Reinhart as a #3 center and so in a couple years the cap will become a problem here as well and we're not even good yet!

 

So, the solution is not to think of Reinhart as a #3 center cause that situation won't be possible to maintain, you're better off to trade him while he has upside value to some people - unless he actually is good enough to be on the top lines, which I don't think he is. Simple as that.

 

Now go ahead and nitpick some detail and ignore the point, you know you want to...............

So we should trade reinhart now because he might be good some day? Brilliant.

[3putt]

Jeez, I mixed up a timeline from 10 years ago............omg, well throw it all away then. 

 

The point still holds, whether signed or not, they knew they didn't have the money to sign all 3 that was the point. 

 

Look at a right now example of the potential problem. Edmonton. Chiarelli screwed up the cap in Boston, and he's doing it again in Edmonton. With the money committed to McDavid and Draisityl (no, I don't know how to spell it and I don't care) Nugent Hopkins is now the 3rd line center at about 6 million and that's being talked about as unsustainable. The exact same thing will happen if you have Reinhart as a #3 center and so in a couple years the cap will become a problem here as well and we're not even good yet!  

 

So, the solution is not to think of Reinhart as a #3 center cause that situation won't be possible to maintain, you're better off to trade him while he has upside value to some people - unless he actually is good enough to be on the top lines, which I don't think he is. Simple as that. 

 

Now go ahead and nitpick some detail and ignore the point, you know you want to...............

 

If you trade him, you do so to make the team better. Duchesse for Samson is at best a push today and a negligent use of resources in two years when Duchesne is a UFA and Samson is a cost controlled RFA. Today Samson is the better producer. He will be that much more effective in 2 years.

[Pokey Jones]

So we should trade reinhart now because he might be good some day? Brilliant.

No, because some other teams THINK he might still be good one day.    My words were "while he has upside value to some people". Not to me. Maybe to you.