Should GMTM Keep His Job?

[Robviously]

Fires disco and puts Terry Murray behind the bench.

Nooooooooo.

[Rasmus_]

Nah, I do agree that Bylsma needs to go, but I'm not about Murray being sent out.  He's made far less mistakes than barnfires like Vancouver. 

[Guest]

1) He never said 3 years. In fact has never put a time limit on.

2) McNabb has been a healthy scratch half the season, no matter how many times you bring up his name all he still can't skate.

3) He's has been through 3 drafts, the first being a historically weak draft. 95% of NHL draft choices take at least two years to make an appearance.

4) None of the defenseman brought in with the exception of Kulikov were part of the long term plan.

5) If the team didn't quit on their coach after break they would be challenging for a playoff spot in spite of missing their two top forwards for the first two months of the season.

6) Finally, hopelessly flawed is just plain ridiculous. They are two defenseman away from being a solid playoff team.

 Murray said specifically when he was hired.  I do think he said 3 years at one point but can't find the specific quote. Regardless he said this shouldn't take 5 years when he was hired and now he implies it will.

 

Here is what he said then

"This is not going to be a five-year rebuild, not for me anyway. That's not what I want."

"When you tear it down, it doesn't happen overnight," Murray said. "I want to rebuild here properly, which takes time. But it doesn't have to take years."

 

This is what he said 3/1/2017

"… I have a plan. Today was a small, little speed bump to that plan. That's all. We've got lots of picks. We've got lots of good prospects coming and are kids have come up, and some of them have played very well … I'm excited about the direction we're going in. but it takes time. I've given my plan to ownership and my scouting staff. We know our timeline, and it's not an exact timeline. There are things that come up to change it, make it quicker, slow it down, but those are just little things every day."

 

Doesn't sound like the same plan to me.  I started the rebuild thread because I believe and have always believed that the rebuild will take 5 years or longer.  GMTM clearly thought he could do it in less time.  I'm not sure why.  He created the expectations that we should be farther along then we are, and he made the deals to accelerate the rebuild and he should be held responsible when those fail as they did this season.

Edited March 17, 2017 by yse325

[Drunkard]

You know as Christian I'm beginning to be offended by your anti faith comments. I'm not pushing my beliefs on you. I could care less that you're an atheist,pagan or whatever but don't push that agenda then complain about Christians doing it. Seems like belittling Christians is okay but you seem to go off on anyone who mentions the word faith

There are other forums you can use to express you pro or anti religious views.

 

I'm not belittling religion, at least not in this thread, I have a religion thread for that. I just want the hockey coach to be hired based on his hockey resume and the football coach to be hired based on his football resume. If Terry Pegula is taking people's religious beliefs into account for the hiring process that's just plain stupid, just like it's stupid that he seems to have allowed the Bills coach's wrestling background and religious beliefs to factor into the hiring metrics. I have no real feelings on wrestling whatsoever but I still think it's dumb to factor in McDermott's past wrestling background into his decision making process or the fact that Russ Brandon stacked the deck in favor of Rex Ryan by telling him to bring a bottle of red wine to his interview just so it would make his job of marketing the team easier. The actual religious part isn't where my problem lies. It's in using irrelevant factors into his hiring metrics.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Drunkard

[Jsixspd]

I was looking back to the Sabres, Pre-Pegulas, and the final season was 100 points, 8 games above .500 and a division championship. 

When, realistically, will the Sabres even be back to THAT level?  73 months into Pegulas' era and counting.  

It's easy to forget - while the Sabres had issues, they were a decent team when Terrance Pegula bought them.  

Now?  For all Pegula's lofty talk about the Stanley Cup being the driving 'goal' for the team -  the Sabres now, 7 years later, will be lucky to hit 80 pts this season;  and money is being wasted left and right.  

 

The Pegulas certainly aren't 'all that' as team owners.   The Bills, similarly, have retrograded after 2 years+ of Pegula ownership. 

[WildCard]

It's been 7 years??

[Georgia Blizzard]

I'm not belittling religion, at least not in this thread, I have a religion thread for that. I just want the hockey coach to be hired based on his hockey resume and the football coach to be hired based on his football resume. If Terry Pegula is taking people's religious beliefs into account for the hiring process that's just plain stupid, just like it's stupid that he seems to have allowed the Bills coach's wrestling background and religious beliefs to factor into the hiring metrics. I have no real feelings on wrestling whatsoever but I still think it's dumb to factor in McDermott's past wrestling background into his decision making process or the fact that Russ Brandon stacked the deck in favor of Rex Ryan by telling him to bring a bottle of red wine to his interview just so it would make his job of marketing the team easier. The actual religious part isn't where my problem lies. It's in using irrelevant factors into his hiring metrics.

 

It's not dumb to factor in a person's values and how they deal with people as part of the hiring process, it would be dumb not to.  Sometimes values are reflected by a person's religious beliefs, sometimes in their non-professional associations, sometimes in the way they interact with their family and friends, in any case, it's a part of every hire any intelligent manager makes, sports is no different.

 

Too often people confuse values with religion because for a lot of people they are one in the same.

 

I don't think the Pegulas are searching for a Christian, they are searching for someone who lives Christian values, it's not a religious test, it's a values test.  Big difference

[Radar]

I'm not belittling religion, at least not in this thread, I have a religion thread for that. I just want the hockey coach to be hired based on his hockey resume and the football coach to be hired based on his football resume. If Terry Pegula is taking people's religious beliefs into account for the hiring process that's just plain stupid, just like it's stupid that he seems to have allowed the Bills coach's wrestling background and religious beliefs to factor into the hiring metrics. I have no real feelings on wrestling whatsoever but I still think it's dumb to factor in McDermott's past wrestling background into his decision making process or the fact that Russ Brandon stacked the deck in favor of Rex Ryan by telling him to bring a bottle of red wine to his interview just so it would make his job of marketing the team easier. The actual religious part isn't where my problem lies. It's in using irrelevant factors into his hiring metrics.

Thanks, then your comment about hiring Satanists,pagans etc. had no demeaning purpose in your post. I also want a coach hired on his hockey resume. My problem is that you imply that TP's comments mean he chose the coach not TM and the coaches faith was the reason or a significant reason for Bylsma hiring. I'm not a big supporter of our coach, but I have no reason to think Murray didn't have the say in his hire nor to believe faith was a significant factor. Edited March 17, 2017 by Radar

[Randall Flagg]

Bylsma had a cup at the time. Faith-based or not, right or wrong, that was going to give him a massive edge over anyone else that remained

[Lanny]

1 more year if and only if DD is fired and based on acquisitions either drafted, signed or traded for this summer plus losing some dead weight, Moulson, Kuli to start Gorges and or Franson.

This is where i'm at, the moves are Murray's to make (coach included), but if there isn't improvement then he's out at seasons end. 

[I-90 W]

Yes, but DB shouldn't.

[Jsixspd]

It's been 7 years??

Yup.  The 2009-10 season ended early April, 2010.  Just 2, 3 weeks away from being 7 years.  :(

[TrueBlueGED]

Minus gross negligence or an unworkably poisonous atmosphere, it would be counterproductive to fire a guy without giving him a chance to finish what he started. IMO, for a GM, that usually should be five drafts.

 

So far, Murray seems to acquired an excellent crop of young forwards, done alright in goal, struggled rebuilding the defence and failed on his first coach. He hasn't backed us into any corners with his cap management (yet) and he has a lot of bodies in the pipeline.

 

I still need time to see how those kids develop and how he balances Kane, Eichel and Reinhart's new deals with the bad contracts of Moulson, Bogosian and Ennis. And I will be watching closely to see how he improves the defence and the coaching situations in the offseason.

 

So, to answer the question: yes, for now, but what happens next year will be very telling. If we look like we have the past few weeks 12 months from now, he might not get that fifth draft.

I'll go one further: I need him to be able to get out from under at least one of our bad contracts. Moulson, Ennis, Bogo, and Gorges, all on the books is a significant hindrance to improving the team (for example, we can't take Stoner off the Ducks' hands to sweeten a trade). And that's before Eichel and Reinhart get big raises.

 

I don't really believe in the "Murray overpays" meme, but he did have the assets to beat the market to make some deals happen if he had to. He doesn't anymore, so to really improve the roster without robbing Peter to pay Paul, I think he has to demonstrate a shrewdness he has yet to do. Put a little differently, when has he acquired a player underapprreciated by the market? He's paying sticker price, which isn't inherently a problem, but by swinging and missing on every major blue line move, he's in a spot where he needs two, but can probably only afford to pay sticker for one (and even then, of he has to burn an asset to get out from under a bad contract, maybe he can't pay sticker at all).

 

I think he's done enough good to get a chance to correct it, but he's made his job harder. And, of course, should be bring Bylsma back...BURN THE WITCH!

[I-90 W]

I was looking back to the Sabres, Pre-Pegulas, and the final season was 100 points, 8 games above .500 and a division championship. 

 

When, realistically, will the Sabres even be back to THAT level?  73 months into Pegulas' era and counting.  

 

It's easy to forget - while the Sabres had issues, they were a decent team when Terrance Pegula bought them.  

 

Now?  For all Pegula's lofty talk about the Stanley Cup being the driving 'goal' for the team -  the Sabres now, 7 years later, will be lucky to hit 80 pts this season;  and money is being wasted left and right.  

 

 

The Pegulas certainly aren't 'all that' as team owners.   The Bills, similarly, have retrograded after 2 years+ of Pegula ownership. 

 

I feel that way too at times but honestly we wern't ever going to go anywhere back then in the playoffs. Our last playoff appearance in 2011 (I believe) philly bullied us all over the ice. They literally camped out right in front of Miller the entire series. Not to mention the Lucic/ no response incident before that etc. Pominville/ Roy/ Vanek/ Myers etc wern't going to get us anywhere but one-and-done.  

[Guest]

I'll go one further: I need him to be able to get out from under at least one of our bad contracts. Moulson, Ennis, Bogo, and Gorges, all on the books is a significant hindrance to improving the team (for example, we can't take Stoner off the Ducks' hands to sweeten a trade). And that's before Eichel and Reinhart get big raises.

 

I don't really believe in the "Murray overpays" meme, but he did have the assets to beat the market to make some deals happen if he had to. He doesn't anymore, so to really improve the roster without robbing Peter to pay Paul, I think he has to demonstrate a shrewdness he has yet to do. Put a little differently, when has he acquired a player underapprreciated by the market? He's paying sticker price, which isn't inherently a problem, but by swinging and missing on every major blue line move, he's in a spot where he needs two, but can probably only afford to pay sticker for one (and even then, of he has to burn an asset to get out from under a bad contract, maybe he can't pay sticker at all).

 

I think he's done enough good to get a chance to correct it, but he's made his job harder. And, of course, should be bring Bylsma back...BURN THE WITCH!

True I think this is very well said, except we aren't Salem.  And maybe that is my biggest issue with GMTM, we get no bang for our $.  We aren't playing like a $73 million roster.  Other then Jack and Sam, who are on ELC's, the only guys playing above their pay grade are McCabe and Lehner.  Ennis, Gorges, Franson, Kulikov, Bogosian, Moulson, and even ROR to a certain extent take out a lot more then they produce.  Considering that GMTM gave or acquired all those contracts, isn't fair to question his ability to run this team long-term?

Edited March 17, 2017 by yse325

[Marvelo]

Fires disco and puts Terry Murray behind the bench.

 

Why not do it right after the Ducks beat the tar out of the Sabres? Why wait? See if Murray Sr. can do something.

[WildCard]

Bylsma had a cup at the time. Faith-based or not, right or wrong, that was going to give him a massive edge over anyone else that remained

Well it was that, his ability to apparently handle star players, and the fact that he had already coached Jack

[Crusader1969]

Im sorry but I can not allow anyone to classify the McNabb or Pysyk trades as bad trades! how did McNabb do last night? oh right he was a healthy scratch...... again!! Also, shouldn't we wait on Fasching before making judgement?? As for the Pysyk trade, He is 5th out of 6 regular dmen on the Panthers in TOI at even strength. Is he an analytics darling? yes. but is he trusted by his coaches??

 

watch the leafs first goal  - 1 min into the video.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Crusader1969

[Jacque Richard]

I was looking back to the Sabres, Pre-Pegulas, and the final season was 100 points, 8 games above .500 and a division championship. 

When, realistically, will the Sabres even be back to THAT level?  73 months into Pegulas' era and counting.  

It's easy to forget - while the Sabres had issues, they were a decent team when Terrance Pegula bought them.  

Now?  For all Pegula's lofty talk about the Stanley Cup being the driving 'goal' for the team -  the Sabres now, 7 years later, will be lucky to hit 80 pts this season;  and money is being wasted left and right.  

 

The Pegulas certainly aren't 'all that' as team owners.   The Bills, similarly, have retrograded after 2 years+ of Pegula ownership.

 

Agree here

[dudacek]

That's true. A coach rarely outlasts the GM, but it does happen occasionally. (Dave Tippett outlasted GM Don Maloney) The GM usually fires the coach to save his own behind.

 

JJ, the acquisition of Legwand wasn't the problem. Legwand did just fine for us in his limited role. It was that his acquisition and the cap hit that went with was a symptom of a greater problem and that problem was the over payment for Lehner. Ottawa received a better draft pick then the market for Lehner plus we gave them $3 mill in cap relief which they desperately wanted. We essentially received no compensation for taking Legwand, a player they didn't want any longer and certainly not a $3 mill, off their hands. Get it now?

This is Darcy at his finest. Micro-analyzing the fine detail of a trade to maximize value.

I want our GM to identify talent and go get it.

If Murray has identified Lehner as the top goalie in the market and taking on Legwand's salary is the difference between getting him or not, and I can afford that salary, then I take the salary.

 

And then burn Murray at the stake for misevaluating Lehner. ????

 

I'll go one further: I need him to be able to get out from under at least one of our bad contracts. Moulson, Ennis, Bogo, and Gorges, all on the books is a significant hindrance to improving the team (for example, we can't take Stoner off the Ducks' hands to sweeten a trade). And that's before Eichel and Reinhart get big raises.

I don't really believe in the "Murray overpays" meme, but he did have the assets to beat the market to make some deals happen if he had to. He doesn't anymore, so to really improve the roster without robbing Peter to pay Paul, I think he has to demonstrate a shrewdness he has yet to do. Put a little differently, when has he acquired a player underapprreciated by the market? He's paying sticker price, which isn't inherently a problem, but by swinging and missing on every major blue line move, he's in a spot where he needs two, but can probably only afford to pay sticker for one (and even then, of he has to burn an asset to get out from under a bad contract, maybe he can't pay sticker at all).

I think he's done enough good to get a chance to correct it, but he's made his job harder. And, of course, should be bring Bylsma back...BURN THE WITCH!

I like ???? post and am really sad that Qwk is the one that gets to cuddle with Blue at the meet-up. Edited March 17, 2017 by dudacek

[qwksndmonster]

I cannot keep track of all of those I am meant to cuddle.

[JJFIVEOH]

That's true.  A coach rarely outlasts the GM, but it does happen occasionally.  (Dave Tippett outlasted GM Don Maloney)  The GM usually fires the coach to save his own behind.

 

JJ, the acquisition of Legwand wasn't the problem.  Legwand did just fine for us in his limited role.  It was that his acquisition and the cap hit that went with was a symptom of a greater problem and that problem was the over payment for Lehner.  Ottawa received a better draft pick then the market for Lehner plus we gave them $3 mill in cap relief which they desperately wanted.  We essentially received no compensation for taking Legwand, a player they didn't want any longer and certainly not a $3 mill, off their hands.  Get it now?

 

I get it, it's petty. It had absolutely no negative bearing on this team whatsoever. 

[tom webster]

Murray said specifically when he was hired. I do think he said 3 years at one point but can't find the specific quote. Regardless he said this shouldn't take 5 years when he was hired and now he implies it will.

 

Here is what he said then

"This is not going to be a five-year rebuild, not for me anyway. That's not what I want."

"When you tear it down, it doesn't happen overnight," Murray said. "I want to rebuild here properly, which takes time. But it doesn't have to take years."

 

This is what he said 3/1/2017

"… I have a plan. Today was a small, little speed bump to that plan. That's all. We've got lots of picks. We've got lots of good prospects coming and are kids have come up, and some of them have played very well … I'm excited about the direction we're going in. but it takes time. I've given my plan to ownership and my scouting staff. We know our timeline, and it's not an exact timeline. There are things that come up to change it, make it quicker, slow it down, but those are just little things every day."

 

Doesn't sound like the same plan to me. I started the rebuild thread because I believe and have always believed that the rebuild will take 5 years or longer. GMTM clearly thought he could do it in less time. I'm not sure why. He created the expectations that we should be farther along then we are, and he made the deals to accelerate the rebuild and he should be held responsible when those fail as they did this season.

It's going to take 4 years which is less then 5.

[Weave]

He'll get to hire one more coach. He won't get to hire the one after that.

 

We've come along way from the days of ZFG irrational exhuberance. Although we still have a good bit of that directed elsewhwere on a team that has shown nothing.

[Scottysabres]

After the team has gone 2-8-2 in their last 12 despite GMTM's pep talk and it's becoming a fait accompli that DD is going to be shown the door for this team's lack of improvement in the standings, the next and only question left is should GMTM keep his job as well?

 

This is highly unlikely but there is growing body of evidence that he may not be the man for the job or at the very least, PSE needs to hire someone to mentor him like Tor did for Shanny.  

 

1) Roster is hopelessly flawed.  This is mostly about the 4 lousy D he acquired, and his failure to properly build D depth, but also the abundance of forwards that aren't really helping the team.

2) Poor professional player evaluation.  Look no further then the D.  

3) Mediocre trades and acquisitions.  Poor trades like the McNabb and Pysyk deals headline the list, but with the except of ROR, all the major trades have some questionable aspects like the taking on Legwand and his cap hit in the Lehner deal.  Add the length and size of the Moulson contract.  Right now the Sabres are saddled with 4 terrible contracts to the tune of 20 mil and all were either given or acquired by GMTM despite only 3 years on the job.  Frankly only FA acquisitions Gionta and Okposo are earning their paycheck.

4) Bombastic personality and attitude.  His pep talk failed to inspire the team, especially when you consider he also recently blamed the players for a bad road trip in the media.  They may not be playing hard for DD anymore, but this may also be a response to playing for GMTM.  This might also be hurting his ability to recruit, especially younger players to Buffalo, such as Vesey, Bayreuther, Caggulia, and now Petersen.  With Eichel and Risto to play with you'd think people would be clamoring to come here.

5) Rebuild plan might also be hopelessly flawed.  He told everyone that he could build a contender in 3 years.  His plan to trade assets for youngish vets to move the team into contention faster has clearly failed, mostly because he done a crappy job of acquiring these youngish vets.  Kane, Bogo, Franson, Kuilkov, ROR, Lehner and Okposo were all part of that plan.  None of the defenders have worked and their is reason to worry that Kane might want out and that Lehner, although much improved, has some significant flaws in his game to keep him from being the anchor for the team long-term.  He has now retreated from his earlier statements.  No surprise, but now if he goes toward the traditional rebuild, he has traded away significant assets that should have been in place.  

6) He hired DD ;) .  

 

Once he pushes DD out the door, the 2nd coach he'll have fired, the focus will be solely on him.  He created this mess and now he has no choice but to own it.  If we don't make significant progress under his new coach, there is no one left to blame is there?

I started the other Murray discussion thread, specifically because of what you laid out here. I believe now Murray is in way over his head. One off season isn't going to fix the defensive mess in my opinion.

He's boxed himself in and set himself up for failure. The time for excuses has passed. or get off the pot Tim!