GMTM: Problem solver or Problem creator?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Right now I'm still grading GMTM with an incomplete.

 

So far only one trade has really improved the team and that is the ROR deal. I'd say we are losing the Kane/Bogosian trade and Lehner is a disappointment. Nilsson and Chad Johnson have been good as backups/part time starters, but neither is a major trade.

 

His major FA signings also have been a very mixed bag leaning toward the negative. McCormick - bust. Moulson - bust. Gionta - solid. Okposo - excellent. Smaller signings have been mixed as well with COR, Falk and Fedun contributing some, but not much else.

 

Drafting is incomplete with Reinhart and Eichel making an impact (hard to miss on a 2nd overall pick), but we have yet to see really anything from with other draftees, other then Guhle's 3 game callup.

 

Overall, adding ROR and Okposo has improved the team, but we don;t have much to show for anything else which has been done to accelerate team growth.

Edited January 17, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Huckleberry]

Right now I'm still grading GMTM with an incomplete.

 

So far only one trade has really improved the team and that is the ROR deal.  I'd say we are losing the Kane/Bogosian trade and Lehner is a disappointment.  Nilsson and Chad Johnson have been good as backups/part time starters, but neither is a major trade.  

 

His major FA signings also have been a very mixed bag leaning toward the negative.  McCormick - bust.  Moulson - bust.  Gionta - solid.  Okposo - excellent.  Smaller signings have been mixed as well with COR, Falk and Fedun contributing some, but not much else.

 

Drafting is incomplete with Reinhart and Eichel making an impact (hard to miss on a 2nd overall pick), but we have yet to see really anything from with other draftees, other then Guhle's 3 game callup.

 

Overall, adding ROR and Okposo has improved the team, but we don;t have much to show for anything else which has been done to accelerate team growth.

 

 

Don't really get the Lehner bashing, he has been a solid goalie except in the shootout.

[inkman]

Is McCormick a bust because he has blood clots? Because signing a 4th liner to be a 4th liner doesn't leave much room for grading.

 

Evander Kane has also made the team better. He plays a maddening style but he tilts the ice in our favor.

[nucci]

Right now I'm still grading GMTM with an incomplete.

 

So far only one trade has really improved the team and that is the ROR deal.  I'd say we are losing the Kane/Bogosian trade and Lehner is a disappointment.  Nilsson and Chad Johnson have been good as backups/part time starters, but neither is a major trade.  

 

His major FA signings also have been a very mixed bag leaning toward the negative.  McCormick - bust.  Moulson - bust.  Gionta - solid.  Okposo - excellent.  Smaller signings have been mixed as well with COR, Falk and Fedun contributing some, but not much else.

 

Drafting is incomplete with Reinhart and Eichel making an impact (hard to miss on a 2nd overall pick), but we have yet to see really anything from with other draftees, other then Guhle's 3 game callup.

 

Overall, adding ROR and Okposo has improved the team, but we don;t have much to show for anything else which has been done to accelerate team growth.

I don't see how we're losing the Kane trade. Bogo has not been great but Kane has been playing the best of the 4 main players. Stafford is awful 4-7-11 on the season and Myers is injured again. How is McCormick considered a major FA signing?

[sabills]

I don't see how we're losing the Kane trade. Bogo has not been great but Kane has been playing the best of the 4 main players. Stafford is awful 4-7-11 on the season and Myers is injured again. How is McCormick considered a major FA signing?

QFT

 

In my book whoever gets the best player from a trade is the winner. I understand the frustrations about Kane from an off ice issue, and I've called for his head myself, but on the ice? Make an argument to me that he wasn't the best player involved in that trade.

[jahnyc]

For me, it is not whether GMTM won the trade for Kane, but more about was this the best use of assets or where there there other alternatives that would have produced better results.  I also think that GMTM has undervalued draft picks in the trades that he has made (e.g., two second round picks for Fasching) and traded away too many of these assets.  Acquiring Lehner was fine, but using a first round pick to do it?  Were there commensurate free agent options or other trades that could have been made for less value?

 

In his trades, GMTM has used many of the draft picks that had been accumulated in the process of the team tanking over a number of years.  Because of the process of tanking, our pipeline of talent and overall talent was completely decimated.  I was looking forward to the rebuilding of our talent by using the draft picks that we had accumulated.  I thought that was one of the primary reasons that we had hired GMTM (his ability to draft players).  I get it that it is too early to tell with many of our recently drafted players, but I am feeling disappointed about where we are currently because I do not see the pipeline of talent that I would have expected at this point.  

Edited January 17, 2017 by jahnyc

[Radar]

I am not dissatisfied with GM at all. This team, in my mind, has improved quite a lot. Goaltending is no worst and personally I think improved. Forwards significantly improved. Defense about the same but I expect Murray's intentions are to look to improve that as well. Grade o tis point: A-.

[Taro T]

For me, it is not whether GMTM won the trade for Kane, but more about was this the best use of assets or where there there other alternatives that would have produced better results.  I also think that GMTM has undervalued draft picks in the trades that he has made (e.g., two second round picks for Fasching) and traded away too many of these assets.  Acquiring Lehner was fine, but using a first round pick to do it?  Were there commensurate free agent options or other trades that could have been made for less value?

 

In his trades, GMTM has used many of the draft picks that had been accumulated in the process of the team tanking over a number of years.  Because of that, our pipeline of talent and overall talent was completely decimated.  I was looking forward to the rebuilding of our talent by using the draft picks that we had accumulated.  I thought that was one of the primary reasons that we had hired GMTM (his ability to draft players).  I get it that it is too early to tell with many of our recently drafted players, but I am feeling disappointed about where we are currently because I do not see the pipeline of talent that I would have expected at this point.

 

:huh: Trading draft picks is what decimated the team's talent?!?!?

 

It wasn't the ACTUAL trading away talented players for draft picks? :wacko:

[sabills]

For me, it is not whether GMTM won the trade for Kane, but more about was this the best use of assets or where there there other alternatives that would have produced better results.  I also think that GMTM has undervalued draft picks in the trades that he has made (e.g., two second round picks for Fasching) and traded away too many of these assets.  Acquiring Lehner was fine, but using a first round pick to do it?  Were there commensurate free agent options or other trades that could have been made for less value?

 

In his trades, GMTM has used many of the draft picks that had been accumulated in the process of the team tanking over a number of years.  Because of that, our pipeline of talent and overall talent was completely decimated.  I was looking forward to the rebuilding of our talent by using the draft picks that we had accumulated.  I thought that was one of the primary reasons that we had hired GMTM (his ability to draft players).  I get it that it is too early to tell with many of our recently drafted players, but I am feeling disappointed about where we are currently because I do not see the pipeline of talent that I would have expected at this point.  

 

So I've heard this line before, and I don't have a good handle on it really. So I'm going to make a list of all the trades Murray has made since he came to Buffalo and see how that looks, then go from there. This list includes only picks and players who were prospects at the time of the trade. From nhltradetracker.com

 

Future pieces (draft picks and prospects) acquired since January 9th, 2014

 

William Carrier

2015 1st round pick

2016 3rd round pick

Torrey Mitchell

2014 2nd round pick

2016 2nd round pick

Hudson Fasching

Nicolas Deslauriers

2016 conditional 3rd round pick

Jason Kasdorf

Jack Nevins

2016 7th round pick

2016 3rd round pick

2016 5th round pick

2017 3rd round pick

2016 conditional 3rd round pick

Jimmy Vesey

2016 2nd round pick (#33-Rasmus Asplund) 

 

Total:

1st round picks: 1

2nd round picks: 3

3rd round picks:3

Other draft picks: 4

Prospects: 7

Total: 18

 

 

Future pieces (draft picks and prospects) traded away since January 9th, 2014

 

2015 3rd round pick 

2nd round pick 

2nd round pick 

Brayden McNabb

Jonathan Parker

2016 2nd round pick

2015 conditional 7th round pick

Brendan Lemieux

Joel Armia

2015 1st round pick

Torrey Mitchell

Brian Flynn

2015 1st round pick

J.T. Compher

2015 2nd round pick

2016 3rd round pick

2016 2nd round pick (#38-Adam Mascherin)

2016 3rd round pick (#89-Linus Nassen)

 

Total:

1st round picks: 2

2nd round picks: 5

3rd round picks: 3

Other draft picks: 1

Prospects: 7

Total pieces: 18

 

Some pieces were on the edge of prospect, like McNabb, and Zadorov, and then there was this trade:

Ottawa Senators acquire  

Jason Akeson

Philip Varone

Jerome Gauthier-Leduc

Conditional pick 

 

Buffalo Sabres acquire

Michael Sdao

Alexander Guptill

Cole Schneider

Eric O`Dell

 

that I didn't feel like dealing with figuring out who was a prospect and who was AHL fodder, but I think the rest fairly good.

 

After all those trades this list: http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/ranking-nhl-team-prospect-pipeline/story?id=41724093(ABC being the pillar of hockey knowledge) has the Sabres as the 11th rated prospect pool (hockeysfuture.com hasn't updated theirs since 2015).

 

So where does that leave us? I'm not really sure. I don't think GMTM has decimated us, but we certainly need to build the pool back up, especially defensively. The list does not count the NHL players that were added or traded because  that wasn't the point of this post, and I also didn't bother looking at pieces that were traded for and then traded away. Still, its 18 picks and prospects on either side. We've traded away better picks overall, but again, how many of those late 1sts and seconds ever even sniff the NHL? Its too early to say. In general though I don't see Murray having destroyed our future or anything. He's been trying to take a team who was the worst in the NHL and make them respectable in 3 years, and I think he's done an ok job of that. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by sabills

[nfreeman]

In the 22 games since Eichel's return, they are 10-8-4. 

 

That is 2 games below DeLuca .500 and, more importantly, well off a playoff pace. 

 

In 6 of those losses, they produced 1 goal.  In 4 others, they produced 2 goals.  So 10 out of 22 games with 2 goals or fewer.

 

They've won more than 2 in a row just once this season -- that was a 3-game streak -- after which they immediately lost 7 out of 8.

 

I have been generally fine with GMTM, but if this is how the season ends up, he will need to do something significant in order for there to be any reason to think next year will be better.

[pastajoe]

GMTM has a long term plan and is unapologetically sticking to it.  Draft and acquire young talent so that they all mature around the same time, and until then fill in with veterans for the short term. He's so refreshing compared to Doug Whaley who is evasive and confused when questioned, and has yet to acquire a long-term QB solution to build the team around.

 

I expected a better result this season, but they took the worst hit possible with Eichel getting hurt to start the season, then Kane and Lehner right after.  And the ongoing rash of injuries that have occurred throughout have prevented them from seeing how a full lineup would perform.  I do think that the coach has shuffled the lines too much.  He should always have the faster forwards with Eichel (except Kane who would carry the puck too much).

 

I think the worst move GMTM made was signing Moulson for 5 for $5 million.  He's slow and his play really fell off.  But perhaps it was worth it if his year of billiting Eichel helped Jack mature into a long term success.

 

It will be another 2 years before we see all the assets acquired making a contribution (Guhle, Borgen, Fasching, Nylander, Peterson, Pu) and the short term veterans are cleaned out. 

[sabills]

GMTM has a long term plan and is unapologetically sticking to it.  Draft and acquire young talent so that they all mature around the same time, and until then fill in with veterans for the short term. He's so refreshing compared to Doug Whaley who is evasive and confused when questioned, and has yet to acquire a long-term QB solution to build the team around.

 

I expected a better result this season, but they took the worst hit possible with Eichel getting hurt to start the season, then Kane and Lehner right after.  And the ongoing rash of injuries that have occurred throughout have prevented them from seeing how a full lineup would perform.  I do think that the coach has shuffled the lines too much.  He should always have the faster forwards with Eichel (except Kane who would carry the puck too much).

 

I think the worst move GMTM made was signing Moulson for 5 for $5 million.  He's slow and his play really fell off.  But perhaps it was worth it if his year of billiting Eichel helped Jack mature into a long term success.

 

It will be another 2 years before we see all the assets acquired making a contribution (Guhle, Borgen, Fasching, Nylander, Peterson, Pu) and the short term veterans are cleaned out. 

 

After looking through those trades I think his worst move was McNabb and 2 2nd rounders for Fasching and Delo. McNabb is playing in the top-4 d right now for the Kings. As much as I like Faching I'd much rather have McNabb there than Gorges...

[jahnyc]

Poor drafting in my response.  I meant that the process of tanking decimated our level of overall talent, not that GMTM has decimated our talent with his efforts.

[Iron Crotch]

Any one of us on this forum could put together a team that finishes dead last and then draft the top guys available at #2 overall (Reinhart, Eichel). Other than Risto and McCabe, we're still weak on defense. And, GMTM built (is building) a "heavy" team when the rest of the league is going to small, fast, and skilled. We shall see...

[pastajoe]

After looking through those trades I think his worst move was McNabb and 2 2nd rounders for Fasching and Delo. McNabb is playing in the top-4 d right now for the Kings. As much as I like Faching I'd much rather have McNabb there than Gorges...

 

The jury is still out, we haven't seen Fasching enough.  He certainly was a force as scoring power forward in college, which has been lacking on the Sabres.  McNabb has more years and has been playing with a better group of D on the Kings.  But as Murray has said, it's not a bad thing if both teams benefit from a trade.

Any one of us on this forum could put together a team that finishes dead last and then draft the top guys available at #2 overall (Reinhart, Eichel). Other than Risto and McCabe, we're still weak on defense. And, GMTM built (is building) a "heavy" team when the rest of the league is going to small, fast, and skilled. We shall see...

 

Defense: Guhle (2nd round), Borgen (4th), Fitzgerald (3rd).

 

Smaller fast skilled forwards: Nylander (1st), Asplund (2nd), Pu (3rd), Karabacek (4th).

[bob_sauve28]

T 

 

Defense: Guhle (2nd round), Borgen (4th), Fitzgerald (3rd).

 

 

 

So much of how he will be graded, IMO, will be how well he puts together a defense corp that is solid. I wish we had a better group out there now but these things take time 

[PromoTheRobot]

My faith in Murray has taken a hit.

[Doohickie]

I do think that the coach has shuffled the lines too much.  He should always have the faster forwards with Eichel (except Kane who would carry the puck too much).

 

I think the worst move GMTM made was signing Moulson for 5 for $5 million.  He's slow and his play really fell off.  But perhaps it was worth it if his year of billiting Eichel helped Jack mature into a long term success.

 

It will be another 2 years before we see all the assets acquired making a contribution (Guhle, Borgen, Fasching, Nylander, Peterson, Pu) and the short term veterans are cleaned out. 

 

Actually, the shuffling seems to finally be paying off.  I think having agile lines that can be reconfigured for game situations is a good thing.  The obvious application of that is PP and PK, but I think line shuffling can also be used to counter the strengths an opponent has and to keep the opponent off balance.  The most obvious of these to me is whether Samson plays on Jack's wing or centers his own line.  If you have a team that has questionable defense in their bottom 6 and bottom D pairs, having 3 scoring lines can help.  If you're looking at a deep team, putting the wunderkinds together helps build a more dynamic line that provides a stronger scoring punch in the top 6.  Line juggling during the game also helps counter what's not working.  I think the team chemistry is to the point where the line juggling is more of a boost than a detriment.

 

In historical context the Moulson signing was a big success.  It was a sign that players don't necessarily want to get away from the Sabres as soon as they can.  It sent a message that the Sabres are back in business.  As horrible as Moulson was last year, he's had a reasonable rebound year.  He's probably paid a little too much for too long, but with the young kids we have I think the continuity and mentoring he provides is worth it... well, almost, anyway.

 

And the prospects you cited will need a bit of time to grow into the NHL.  I don't say that as a necessarily bad thing, but with a complete teardown, these guys will be called upon to make major contributions pretty quickly upon promotion to the NHL.  They're not going to be Eichel or Reinhart though; we have to realize that.  Nylander may be the only one that compares, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are busts.  When you're building a whole team, you're not going to have 12 first-line forwards and 3 top-pair D.

 

We can look back at what got away (Lemieux, Zadorov, McNabb, etc.), but I prefer to look forward to identifying the key roles that still need to be filled, and finding the best fits from around the league and our current prospect pool to fill them.  Bear in mind that we might have the perfect prospects to fill holes on the team in the group you listed, but they will take a year, two, even longer, before they reach their ceilings.  I'm glad we stuck with Foligno, but it took a while for him to mature. 

 

As much as people want GMTM (or perhaps some other GM) to make a bunch of moves to make us an instant contender, simply waiting on the prospect pool to make the jump and mature a little might produce better results over the long haul.

 

I probably sound like a broken record, but Steve Yzerman played 14 years before he won a Cup.  I hope we don't have to wait that long to see Jack hoist it, but if we do, and we end up with Eichel winning multiple cups because the we built an enduring contender, I'm okay with that.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Doohickie

[qwksndmonster]

My faith in Murray has taken a hit.

Mine as well.

 

I would've liked him to push for a defenseman in the offseason, but I can understand that this is not the year to go all out, and if the prices weren't good, it's not worth forcing.

 

I also would've liked him to get more NHL forward depth, so Des and Grant never sniffed the Sabres' roster. I don't have an excuse for that, other than maybe GMTM thought Bailey, Baptiste, and Fasching were more ready than they are? Either way, we don't have enough depth yet.

 

His real crime, though: hiring Bylsma. I hated the hire when it was made, but I gave Bylsma a chance. He talked a big game about his personal research and growth in his time away from the NHL. Despite being a smart guy, Byslma can't get away from his dinosaur instincts. He was a fringe NHLer in his day, and his reverence for defensive, grinding hockey is causing him to be left in the dust by possession hockey.

 

I think he also lacks basic understanding of player matchups/chemistry. There are so many examples of this over the last season and a half. Gorges/Risto, Kane not getting his own line to be as effective as he can be, Girgensons being delegated to the 4th line in favor of Moulson, despite Girgensons being 50 times the 5 on 5 player that Moulson is.

 

My theory is that having Crosby and Malkin for so long ruined Bylsma. He doesn't have the creativity or trust in this young roster to make something special happen.

 

Back to Murray: Bylsma should have been fired after the two Boston games. Why not ring in the new year with a new coach? Set this team's development in the right direction NOW to make the chances as small as possible that next year is another lost season.

 

I'm losing fath in Murray, but I have even less faith that the Pegulas can find a good GM to take over for him.

 

One last thing: Bylsma should not be regarded as a top tier coach just because of his cup and record with the Pens. Good coaches don't sit on the shelf for an entire season after they're fired. The dinosaur attitudes about a "proven coach" exist among ownerships all across the NHL and NFL, keeping many old losers employed far longer than they ought to be. I think that's the main reason Bylsma was hired here.

 

I think GMTM did a good job bringing us out of the tank as far as the roster is concerned. This team should be firmly in a playoff spot right now, or at least ACTUALLY on the bubble. Bylsma, though, is preventing GMTM's good work from being able to shine.

 

Maybe he really is just a great scout and a lousy GM. I hope he can learn.

[pi2000]

Most everything he's done to this point is obvious stuff that needed to be done.  

 

Now is when his job gets difficult and where I will grade him.    

 

If BUF stays within earshot of a playoff spot, what does he do at the deadline?   Buy, sell, hold?   

 

Who does he protect in the expansion draft?

 

What does he do with Bylsma, Kane, etc?

[qwksndmonster]

Most everything he's done to this point is obvious stuff that needed to be done.

 

Now is when his job gets difficult and where I will grade him.

 

If BUF stays within earshot of a playoff spot, what does he do at the deadline? Buy, sell, hold?

 

Who does he protect in the expansion draft?

 

What does he do with Bylsma, Kane, etc?

O'Reilly, Kulikov, and Kane trades were not all obvious things. I like all three trades, and they all make us better. Byslma has no clue how to utilize Kulikov, and is just now figuring out that Kane should be running the third line.

 

The swing and a miss at Lehner is also way overblown on here. We had to get a potential number 1 goaltender, and GMTM thought he had his guy. I'll take those swings over Darcyism any time.

[North Buffalo]

Most everything he's done to this point is obvious stuff that needed to be done.  

 

Now is when his job gets difficult and where I will grade him.    

 

If BUF stays within earshot of a playoff spot, what does he do at the deadline?   Buy, sell, hold?   

 

Who does he protect in the expansion draft?

 

What does he do with Bylsma, Kane, etc?

Dont agree with all his moves, but he did take risks, better than Darcy. Needs to step it up though and get some talent in to take the next step.

[pi2000]

O'Reilly, Kulikov, and Kane trades were not all obvious things. I like all three trades, and they all make us better. Byslma has no clue how to utilize Kulikov, and is just now figuring out that Kane should be running the third line.

 

The swing and a miss at Lehner is also way overblown on here. We had to get a potential number 1 goaltender, and GMTM thought he had his guy. I'll take those swings over Darcyism any time.

 

IMO, the jury is still out on Lehner.   A .922 sv% is nothing to sneeze at (8th in the entire league).  GMTM knows goalies, has he ever brought in a tendy that stunk it up?  Look what Chad Johnson is doing....   Neuvirth and Lindback were better than advertised.. as is Nillson.    

[qwksndmonster]

IMO, the jury is still out on Lehner. A .922 sv% is nothing to sneeze at (8th in the entire league). GMTM knows goalies, has he ever brought in a tendy that stunk it up? Look what Chad Johnson is doing.... Neuvirth and Lindback were better than advertised.. as is Nillson.

You're right that Lehner still might be the guy. My read is that he's average, and will never grow into being the guy.

[GASabresIUFAN]

First I am not a GMTM hater and like that he is at least aggressive. That aggressiveness brought us ROR and likely help land us Okposo.

 

That said, in Lehner's time here he has been basically outplayed by both his backups. Yes, Lehner is improved, but considering what we paid to get him, the deal was a mistake. I thought so at the time and nothing has changed my mind. Seriously we gave up a 1st rd pick for him, plus we took Legwand off their hands and his $3 mill cap hit.

 

I also have never understood the Fasching trade. I like Fasching, but giving up McNabb and 2 seconds for him (the 2 seconds we got for Regher) makes no sense, especially when you consider Fasching was a 4th rd pick with 1 yr of college under his belt. DeLo was a throw in as was Parker, as Delo was never supposed to be anything butba depth player in the NHL at best.

 

Also had we kept McNabb (a left shot d) GMTM would have been more likely to have kept Pysyk vs acquiring LD Kulikov.

 

As to my opinion on the Kane trade, it's hard to argue that we won or at least broke even on the deal. Myers and Bogo have each played 108 games for their new teams, thus neither has been in the lineup on a consistent basis, but Myers has been significantly more effective with 47 pts and a +20 to Bogo's 34 and -27. Also they received over 201 games from Stafford and Armia to Kane 97. Yes I agree I'd rather have Kane then both Stafford and Armia as a player, However, Kane's inconsistent play, frequent injuries, and continued poor judgement away from the ice make him more liability then asset. However the clincher is that WPG drafted Jack Roslovic with our pick. He leads their AHL team in goals and pts and would likely be our first callup at this point. Imho only Nylander is a better prospect in our organization then Roslovic. Frankly, I find ot highly unlikely that Kane remains a Sabres beyond next season, at which point this deal will look even worse.

Edited January 17, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN