LGR4GM Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Dmen take longer to develop, you know this. Our forwards, Jack, Sam, Kane etc, will not want to stay here long term when our d is getting shelled every game. We may already lose Kane to UFA next year. Sam and Jack don't have as much freedom obviously but they will eventually. Our blue line needs fixing, now.Sam and Jack will sign 7 year deals and if the defense isn't fixed by then they should bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottysabres Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Trading Kane or Reinhart or the 8th overall for immediate help on defense would be a panic move and a mistake that would set this franchise back years. This team is not that far off that they need to trade a top forward or top 10 overall pick to make the playoffs next season. I hope Botterill is smart enough to realize that. Kane isn't being re-signed here. He's going to want more than net valued worth in my opinion. Especially given the term he'll be seeking given this next one will be his prime UFA contract. And while 25 goals is nice, he's more of a singular skill set forward more suited for 2nd line LW duty. With that in mind, 6 mil per, 5 to 7 yr length makes him expendable. Reinhart is currently an enigma. He flourishes only marginally on Eichel's wing. The question I put to this is can we do better there? I believe we can. What about this untested theory about his center prowess? Some speculate his absence at his natural position has hindered his true abilities. As for myself, I don't know if he would be better as a center, but I don't believe trading him for defensive help this off season at least, is warranted given the unknowns. The 8th OA pick. No, just no. You don't trade away the teams future depth just to make the playoffs. There are other avenues to achieve this. You only trade it to bring in that final piece or 2 for perennial cup run years and we are still a couple seasons off from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kas23 Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 At this point I have learned it is foolish to assume your team will be competitive for a cup X years into the future. They have a lot of work to do and we don't even know who will be attempting it yet. This is a great post. It reflects what we've been saying about the Sabres for the past 8 years. In reality, we have no idea when we'll actually be competing for a cup and I don't even consider making the playoffs "competing for the cup" as many teams make the playoffs. Until we become the Pens, Nashville, Caps, etc., I don't want to be mortgaging the future. Draft the player and develop him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 This is a great post. It reflects what we've been saying about the Sabres for the past 8 years. In reality, we have no idea when we'll actually be competing for a cup and I don't even consider making the playoffs "competing for the cup" as many teams make the playoffs. Until we become the Pens, Nashville, Caps, etc., I don't want to be mortgaging the future. Draft the player and develop him. Unless you're 74 years old like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) This is a great post. It reflects what we've been saying about the Sabres for the past 8 years. In reality, we have no idea when we'll actually be competing for a cup and I don't even consider making the playoffs "competing for the cup" as many teams make the playoffs. Until we become the Pens, Nashville, Caps, etc., I don't want to be mortgaging the future. Draft the player and develop him. Definitely not belonging in the Absurd Concepts thread, I would like to however nominate "mortgage the future" as an overused concept. Randall's post to me boils down to the fact that there is no guaranteed "future", as things stand. Can't mortgage a future that you don't know exists. There's no guarantee a draft pick is this future. Make you own future. Put together a winning team, in whatever way possible. You can trade a pick for a young roster player, and not necessarily be mortgaging the future. Edited May 7, 2017 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) You can trade a pick for a young roster player, and not necessarily be mortgaging the future.However if you make a habit of this you will kill the future of your team. You can't keep taking on big contracts and and destroying your prospects pipeline as TM did, because if the young vets don't work out (as many of TM's choices did) you end up with a bad NHL team, a bad AHL team, no pipeline and having to go back to trades and FA to try to solve the problem. Unfortunately it's only a short term fix. The only way to rebuild this properly is to draft and develop well. The more picks you have the more chances you have of getting it right. Teams should find 2-3 NHL players from each standard 7 pick draft. When a team is down, those top 10 draft picks are gold. Historcially the majority of best players in the NHL were drafted in the top 10 and those picks become the core of your team (Risto, Jack, Sam). We should not send this pick away for another player who will be a big cap hit. We must establish a flow of cheaper young talent to supplement the expensive core. This is the season to finally go young. We need to dump most of TM's vet acquisitions, bring up the young RW's and move on, even if it means one more mediocre year. Edited May 7, 2017 by GASabresFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasmus_ Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Between Valimaki, Liljegren, or a centermen prospect like Middlestadt, Glass or a winger like Tippett (Who I'm not that high on). There are a number of talents that can be there and just fine for the Sabres. The only player I would die to have in Sabres blue and gold is Gabe Vilardi. I think he's the best talent outside of Hischier in the top 10. With no slights to Patrick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Between Valimaki, Liljegren, or a centermen prospect like Middlestadt, Glass or a winger like Tippett (Who I'm not that high on). There are a number of talents that can be there and just fine for the Sabres. The only player I would die to have in Sabres blue and gold is Gabe Vilardi. I think he's the best talent outside of Hischier in the top 10. With no slights to Patrick. FWIW, if you check back to the January mid-season rankings from NHL.com, Valimaki was the top Finnish defenseman available and was being talked about the way Heiskanen is now: https://www.nhl.com/news/adam-kimelman-2017-nhl-mock-draft/c-285904700 https://www.nhl.com/news/mike-morreale-2017-nhl-mock-draft/c-285904720 I'm basically at the point where if we get Heiskanen, Valimaki, Liljegren, or Makar at 8, I'd be pretty happy. It's tougher to tell which forwards I'd really like at that spot. Tippett is a goal-scorer but I'm not sure versatile he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I'm not as scared of Liljegren as some people are. His tools are ridiculous. His skating alone should make him a top 6 lock. Any one of the guys Robviously mentions or, if all gone, the forward Glass, I'd be totally fine with.* *The opinion of someone who did not follow prospects closely this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-90 W Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I think this board is going to have a fit when the new GM trades our #8 for a dman, lol. Pretty sure it's going to happen too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I think this board is going to have a fit when the new GM trades our #8 for a dman, lol. Pretty sure it's going to happen too. Eh. Depends who we're getting. There should be defensemen available for less than the #8 pick though since the expansion draft is going to force some decisions for teams. I think the chances of a trade would be higher if GMTM were still around. The new GM won't be under pressure to deliver results this season and can keep the pick if he thinks it'll be better for the team in 1-2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I think this board is going to have a fit when the new GM trades our #8 for a dman, lol. Pretty sure it's going to happen too. They only way they get a young top 4 dman in return is if they include a top prospect or two. I hope they don't give that up just to immediately fill a spot vs being patient and building the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-90 W Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) They only way they get a young top 4 dman in return is if they include a top prospect or two. I hope they don't give that up just to immediately fill a spot vs being patient and building the right way. Agreed, and I have been saying that all along (except I am pro-trade the pick). The #8 pick alone will not get it done, I say #8 and Austin or #8 and a later round pick will. Edited May 7, 2017 by Saratoga Sabres Fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Agreed, and I have been saying that all along (except I am pro-trade the pick). The #8 pick alone will not get it done, I say #8 and Austin or #8 and a later round pick will.You think #8 and Brady Austin or #8 and another pick will land a top 4 defender? Absolutely it will not. Not even close. I think this board is going to have a fit when the new GM trades our #8 for a dman, lol. Pretty sure it's going to happen too.I don't that trade happens without a bunch of other pieces from us going out as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-90 W Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 You think #8 and Brady Austin or #8 and another pick will land a top 4 defender? Absolutely it will not. Not even close. I don't that trade happens without a bunch of other pieces from us going out as well. Oh yes it will, just not an established top 4 dman. It would land a Derek Forbort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Trade down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Oh yes it will, just not an established top 4 dman. It would land a Derek Forbort. If that's the case I'd rather draft D at 8 and keep their prospects. It would take #8 overall, a second and Bailey or similar to land a top 4 young D. Which is too much to give at this stage of the rebuild IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) Trade down. Amen Brother! The way this draft sets up, I think there is a real opportunity to move down, pick up assets and still get the same quality player at 12 as we could at 8. Then I hope we combine our early 2nd rd pick with the assets gained from trading down to move back into the 1st rd and get another high quality prospect. At 12 or so I think we'd be able to grab one of Valimaki, Foote, possibly Liljigren, Tolvanen, Pettersson and Vesalainen. at 26-28 guys like Nick Hague (a 6'6 good skating D), Fast D Erik Brannstrom, D Urho Vaakanainen and LWs Strome and Popugaev, and maybe Centers like Robert Thomas (a Pu teammate) and Shane Bowers Edited May 7, 2017 by GASabresFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Amen Brother! The way this draft sets up, I think there is a real opportunity to move down, pick up assets and still get the same quality player at 12 as we could at 8. Then I hope we combine our early 2nd rd pick with the assets gained from trading down to move back into the 1st rd and get another high quality prospect. At 12 or so I think we'd be able to grab one of Valimaki, Foote, possibly Liljigren, Tolvanen, Pettersson and Vesalainen. at 26-28 guys like Nick Hague (a 6'6 good skating D), Fast D Erik Brannstrom, D Urho Vaakanainen and LWs Strome and Popugaev, and maybe Centers like Robert Thomas (a Pu teammate) and Shane Bowers I'd take the trade to 12 as long as the asset was useful for this coming year. I wouldn't trade down to 26/28 regardless of the offer because I want the playoff next year not in 2 or 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I'd take the trade to 12 as long as the asset was useful for this coming year. I wouldn't trade down to 26/28 regardless of the offer because I want the playoff next year not in 2 or 3 I'm talking about two trades 1) trading down to 12 2) trading back into the 1sr rd by using our 2nds and the assets from trading down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) Playoffs or bust. Keep the pick. As long as they bring in a top 4 D talent another way. I'd rather keep the pick if possible, but acquiring a young bonafide top 4 D man is of a higher priority, so the pick for me isn't a non-starter in a trade negotiation, depending on the return. Currently, Falk is our LD on the second pair. I disagree with those that have said Murray dried up our prospect pipeline. Certainly on the back end, but we have a number of promising young forward prospects. Edited May 7, 2017 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two or less Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Oh yes it will, just not an established top 4 dman. It would land a Derek Forbort. Why would the Kings make that trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-90 W Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Why would the Kings make that trade? Depth on defense. Took an injury for him to even crack the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 I still think Hiskainen slides to #8. I could be very wrong but this draft is really up and down with talent. I could see 5 teams in front of Buffalo going after forwards without hesitation. 2 teams I think could go defense. Arizona I think takes Makar because he would fit with how they draft and do things. The other team is Dallas. Every other team really needs forwards. NJ and Philly are taking forwards. Vancouver, Colorado and Vegas need forward help bad. There are a number of big centers and wingers that are all ranked right with the top 3 defenders (Makar, Liljegren, and Heiskanen). Dallas is at #3 and I think it is a hard sell to take a defender there. Vilardi, Glass, and Mittlestadt will all be available and I rank 2 of the 3 ahead of Makar in my mind because forwards are a bit easier to predict. It is safer to take one of them and they are honestly on par with the defenders talent wise. My May MOCK: Hischier - NJD Patrick - Philly Vilardi - Dallas Mittelstadt - Colorado Petterson - Vancouver (some may call this a reach but I think it makes tons of sense for them) Glass - Vegas Makar - Arizona Heiskanen - Buffalo Tippet - Detroit Suzuki - Florida Rasmussen - LA Poehling - Carolina Vesalainen - Winnipeg Kostin - Tampa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 They only way they get a young top 4 dman in return is if they include a top prospect or two. I hope they don't give that up just to immediately fill a spot vs being patient and building the right way. To take it a step further, the only way you get really high end defense talent without having to pay them $8MM+/yr is by drafting and developing them in your own organization. We do not yet have enough of an established roster to be pulling the Chicago/Pittsburgh strategy of trading away futures for win now pieces. The only time that makes sense is with an aging star roster that has one or two more shots at the cup, but even then doing that means the lean years afterward are even worse. Keep drafting talent until we know we are contenders on a consistent basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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