Lanny Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 This has definitely taken on a life of its own, but never been satisfactorily explained anywhere I've seen. On the record, Lemieux was very upset about not being picked in the first round, but he's only said very positive things about the Sabres. There was one tweet from a regional (TSN or Sportsnet?) reporter saying he wasn't going to sign in Buffalo. Murray later said he was offered a contract and didn't accept it, but that wasn't a factor in the trade. Beyond that, I've only seen a lot of internet speculation based on those two quotes. I think it's not a leap to conclude the Sabres offered second-round money and Lemieux turned it down believing he was was worth 1st-round money. Nothing unusual about that, considering he still had two seasons to convince the Sabres otherwise. (See Justin Bailey). Don't have enough information to draw any more conclusions. I think Murray said in the later press conference that it was just negotiation and that he didn't really think too much of him not signing at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I think Murray said in the later press conference that it was just negotiation and that he didn't really think too much of him not signing at that point. We'll never really know, will we? If Lemieux did say he'd never put a Sabres uni on based on some deeply held principle, I'm pretty sure GMTM would gloss it over as a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 But he was never "up with the Sabres" in terms of actual game play. I suppose he attended the prospects camp, but he has never been under contract to any aspect of the Buffalo Sabres organization. So talk of "sending him down" isn't really accurate. He was never "up." He was with the big club throughout the pre-season and played in several pre-season games. Again, according to the WGR guys this morning, Lemieux was not happy about being sent back to the minors after camp and pre-season was over. Couple that with his displeasure about dropping out of the first round and it adds up to being disgruntled. I just don't see how Murray and Co. should have known before hand that this was gonna happen. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 He was with the big club throughout the pre-season and played in several pre-season games. Again, according to the WGR guys this morning, Lemieux was not happy about being sent back to the minors after camp and pre-season was over. Couple that with his displeasure about dropping out of the first round and it adds up to being disgruntled. I just don't see how Murray and Co. should have known before hand that this was gonna happen. GO SABRES!!! Nit-picking correction...he was returned to Juniors....too young for Minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I think Murray said in the later press conference that it was just negotiation and that he didn't really think too much of him not signing at that point. But why do I get the sense that since Lemieux wouldn't sign entry level Murray shipped him out at first chance. If Murray thought he might be a problem before the draft in that regard then why draft him... if he didn't think it would be a problem then that is on him and scouts for not doing their due dilligence and I again question his drafting ability. Granted this is his first time doing things, but unless he brings in an experienced coach that he can work with and not a yes man...ball @#$%$er, then I think TPegs should let him go. Sabres need to find guys in this draft past the first pick. Shipping off a 1st and Armia and Lemieux for Kane who has issues himself without a coach that can handle that scenario as well as Murray is a tall order and brings into question is Murray a train wreck. The next coach will give a big indication and if he screws this up, TPegs needs to fire him on the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Nit-picking correction...he was returned to Juniors....too young for Minors. Thank you sir. I've got too many nits as it is. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 He was with the big club throughout the pre-season and played in several pre-season games. Again, according to the WGR guys this morning, Lemieux was not happy about being sent back to the minors after camp and pre-season was over. Couple that with his displeasure about dropping out of the first round and it adds up to being disgruntled. I just don't see how Murray and Co. should have known before hand that this was gonna happen. GO SABRES!!! Really, isn't that the job of a GM... heck the NFL has so many psychologists evaluating these guys and their lives, they have a sense if they can make it happen and what will work. TPegs needs to make sure Murray does the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Really though. T-Pegs has got life figured out Unless he decides to drill another well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Really, isn't that the job of a GM... heck the NFL has so many psychologists evaluating these guys and their lives, they have a sense if they can make it happen and what will work. TPegs needs to make sure Murray does the same... It's easier for me to believe that Murray and Co. had pre-draft interviews with a bunch of prospects to gauge their interest in playing in Buffalo and that Lemieux gave no previous indication that he wouldn't sign. My feeling is this kid grew up with a sense of hockey entitlement, was pissed about dropping to the second round, and then miffed at being returned to juniors (thanks, X.) after preseason. None of that was predictable before the fact. For all the psychological profiling, interviews, background checks, and other pre-draft testing that the NFL and other leagues employ to minimize risk, it's still no better than a 50/50 proposition that anyone is gonna pan out after being selected. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Unless he decides to drill another well. Wouldn't he then have life figured out pretty well then? :flirt: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 It's easier for me to believe that Murray and Co. had pre-draft interviews with a bunch of prospects to gauge their interest in playing in Buffalo and that Lemieux gave no previous indication that he wouldn't sign. My feeling is this kid grew up with a sense of hockey entitlement, was pissed about dropping to the second round, and then miffed at being returned to juniors (thanks, X.) after preseason. None of that was predictable before the fact. For all the psychological profiling, interviews, background checks, and other pre-draft testing that the NFL and other leagues employ to minimize risk, it's still no better than a 50/50 proposition that anyone is gonna pan out after being selected. GO SABRES!!! True, but you had to know with an agent Dad former pain in the back side, that Lemieux had potential to be a problem and the Sabres couldn't afford to miss on him with all their needs. If none of the others they drafted come through, I would say Murray's first attempt is a failure... not a good sign. ???What do you think is an appropriate development time from after the draft to playing in the NHL a 2nd rounder should be given? 2, 3 or 4 years? I say no more than 4. But 2 years should give you a very good indication for a forward, 3 years said forward should be competing for a position. D is another story, they can take longer but not much. The clock is ticking for Murray on the guys he drafted last year, so far nothing no indication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 He was with the big club throughout the pre-season and played in several pre-season games. Again, according to the WGR guys this morning, Lemieux was not happy about being sent back to the minors after camp and pre-season was over. Couple that with his displeasure about dropping out of the first round and it adds up to being disgruntled. I just don't see how Murray and Co. should have known before hand that this was gonna happen. GO SABRES!!! I always assumed that he wasn't going to sign unless he got the maximum deal possible, something Buffalo had no interest in right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I always assumed that he wasn't going to sign unless he got the maximum deal possible, something Buffalo had no interest in right now. That's exactly it. He felt he was a first round pick and wanted to be paid like one. I can't believe so much time is being spent on a fringe first round/ second round pick. Its a symptom of the internet age. Ten to fifteen years ago nobody even knew who was drafted after the first round because it is so rare that they amount to anything. On top of that, Murray has a completely different approach to drafting after the first round. Where Darcy and his staff played it safe and ended up with a boatload of third and fourth liners, Murray is swinging for the fences with the hope of getting lucky once or twice knowing that eighty percent will be career AHL'ers at best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I always assumed that he wasn't going to sign unless he got the maximum deal possible, something Buffalo had no interest in right now. That is what it sounded like the moment he was drafted and why if Buffalo was not prepared to meet his demands... why draft him... a definite miscalculation causing some to question Murray's ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 That is what it sounded like the moment he was drafted and why if Buffalo was not prepared to meet his demands... why draft him... a definite miscalculation causing some to question Murray's ability. It's not like he was wide open about it before he was drafted. It came out later, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 It's not like he was wide open about it before he was drafted. It came out later, right? No I am pretty sure he was pissed right from the get go about thinking he was a number one and expected to be treated as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 That is what it sounded like the moment he was drafted and why if Buffalo was not prepared to meet his demands... why draft him... a definite miscalculation causing some to question Murray's ability. He was an asset used to obtain a top 3 forward. How is that a mis calculation? The odds of him even making the NHL as anything more then a third liner are remote anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 He was an asset used to obtain a top 3 forward. How is that a mis calculation? The odds of him even making the NHL as anything more then a third liner are remote anyway. Beat me to it. Also, who are the "some" who have been caused to "question Murray's ability"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 That is what it sounded like the moment he was drafted and why if Buffalo was not prepared to meet his demands... why draft him... a definite miscalculation causing some to question Murray's ability. You're carrying quite the grudge there! I don't think he whiffed on Lemieux at all. He was a piece of being able to get Evander Kane. I'm good with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 True, but you had to know with an agent Dad former pain in the back side, that Lemieux had potential to be a problem and the Sabres couldn't afford to miss on him with all their needs. If none of the others they drafted come through, I would say Murray's first attempt is a failure... not a good sign. ???What do you think is an appropriate development time from after the draft to playing in the NHL a 2nd rounder should be given? 2, 3 or 4 years? I say no more than 4. But 2 years should give you a very good indication for a forward, 3 years said forward should be competing for a position. D is another story, they can take longer but not much. The clock is ticking for Murray on the guys he drafted last year, so far nothing no indication. Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? We'd be rich if we had the answer. I think it depends on the prospect as these kids all mature at different rates. On average, I'd say the Detroit model seems to work and I believe they prefer to give their prospects 3 years. But it all depends on the player. Take Eichel for example, he's already strong enough to withstand the physical rigors of the NHL whereas a Reinhart just wasn't at 18. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? We'd be rich if we had the answer. I think it depends on the prospect as these kids all mature at different rates. On average, I'd say the Detroit model seems to work and I believe they prefer to give their prospects 3 years. But it all depends on the player. Take Eichel for example, he's already strong enough to withstand the physical rigors of the NHL whereas a Reinhart just wasn't at 18. GO SABRES!!! It depends on the team and the position, too. Mark Pysyk (2010, first round not second) would have started for a lot of teams this year. This carries across sports, as well. What if you were a shortstop in the Baltimore organization in 1990? Sorry, man, it's gonna be a while. Edited April 14, 2015 by Eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? We'd be rich if we had the answer. I think it depends on the prospect as these kids all mature at different rates. On average, I'd say the Detroit model seems to work and I believe they prefer to give their prospects 3 years. But it all depends on the player. Take Eichel for example, he's already strong enough to withstand the physical rigors of the NHL whereas a Reinhart just wasn't at 18. GO SABRES!!! We will see when Lemieux holds out and re-enters the draft in 2016, only to be selected in the 2nd round again. I guess his development time would be two years less at that point. It depends on the team and the position, too. Mark Pysyk (2010, first round not second) would have started for a lot of teams this year. This carries across sports, as well. What if you were a shortstop in the Baltimore organization in 1990? Sorry, man, it's gonna be a while. Aaron Rodgers edit: Oops, doesn't work with the minor league analogy. Edited April 14, 2015 by shrader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) You're carrying quite the grudge there! I don't think he whiffed on Lemieux at all. He was a piece of being able to get Evander Kane. I'm good with that. Yeh I am, that doesn't take away from the fact the Kane deal was after the fact and Lemieux was a miscalculation. Remains to be seen if Kane is. Like the potential, but the attitude again gives me pause and is Murray just creating another problem despite getting rid of one of his own making. Edited April 14, 2015 by North Buffalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 It depends on the team and the position, too. Mark Pysyk (2010, first round not second) would have started for a lot of teams this year. This carries across sports, as well. What if you were a shortstop in the Baltimore organization in 1990? Sorry, man, it's gonna be a while. Absolutely. Great point here. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 We will see when Lemieux holds out and re-enters the draft in 2016, only to be selected in the 2nd round again. I guess his development time would be two years less at that point. Aaron Rodgers edit: Oops, doesn't work with the minor league analogy. Man, how great would it be if NFL teams could send guys back to college football (their minor league) to work on fundamentals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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