darksabre Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Man, how great would it be if NFL teams could send guys back to college football (their minor league) to work on fundamentals. Like not getting arrested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 He was with the big club throughout the pre-season and played in several pre-season games. Again, according to the WGR guys this morning, Lemieux was not happy about being sent back to the minors after camp and pre-season was over. Couple that with his displeasure about dropping out of the first round and it adds up to being disgruntled. I just don't see how Murray and Co. should have known before hand that this was gonna happen. GO SABRES!!! I checked. He played in a single pre-season game. I stand corrected. Shipping off a 1st and Armia and Lemieux for Kane who has issues himself without a coach that can handle that scenario as well as Murray is a tall order and brings into question is Murray a train wreck. The next coach will give a big indication and if he screws this up, TPegs needs to fire him on the spot. You don't get it. He was trading all that for McEichel, not for Kane. If Kane works out at all, that's a bonus. He was simply dumping current talent to enhance future talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I checked. He played in a single pre-season game. I stand corrected. I stand corrected as well. Not sure where the WGR guys are getting their info. Perhaps they are confusing intra-squad scrimmages with pre-season games. Who knows? At any rate, considering Nolan never met a rookie he thought was ready for the show, I'm not surprised Lemieux would bristle at the idea that his coach thought he wasn't as ready as he thought he was. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Beat me to it. Also, who are the "some" who have been caused to "question Murray's ability"? He posts under the screen name North Buffalo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 The circumstances matter not. Two sharts = one pink slip. One and a half sharts. He took over the first one after RonRon had all but the final release the season before last. He posts under the screen name North Buffalo. I believe the fellow who is sick in Florida is questioning TM somewhat, as is Rumble Fish. I certainly am holding out on the full on love of TM. I do question his integrity, as he had basically lied about not wanting to finish DFL, two years running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I certainly am holding out on the full on love of TM. I do question his integrity, as he had basically lied about not wanting to finish DFL, two years running. No offense NS, but I mean what else do you expect him to say? "Yeah, we outright tanked for two years in a row."? The league would end him, and us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I do question his integrity, as he had basically lied about not wanting to finish DFL, two years running. You think he should have admitting to trying to finish last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No offense NS, but I mean what else do you expect him to say? "Yeah, we outright tanked for two years in a row."? The league would end him, and us. None taken. I don't expect him to say proudly *oh, yeah we are tanking and we better end up in last place, or else*. I don't like when he says ... *I did not expect to be in last place* ... or whatever he said about it exactly. He should just say that *we are in heavy rebuild mode and we did not expect to be very good this year and we were not*. You think he should have admitting to trying to finish last? See above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) None taken. I don't expect him to say proudly *oh, yeah we are tanking and we better end up in last place, or else*. I don't like when he says ... *I did not expect to be in last place* ... or whatever he said about it exactly. He should just say that *we are in heavy rebuild mode and we did not expect to be very good this year and we were not*. Fair point. I honestly don't know why he chose to say "I did not expect to be in last place." Technically he could be correct, and likely is even if finishing last was his goal. I guess it comes down to how much we can work around a truth; the truth being tanking. Is Murray's honesty, albeit an undeniably calculated phrase in its ability to circumnavigate his goal of tanking, deplorable as it simultaneously puts the blame on someone else? I suppose that depends on who he's putting the blame on, and what the blame is for. Edited April 14, 2015 by WildCard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Fair point. I honestly don't know why he chose to say "I did not expect to be in last place." Technically he could be correct, and likely is even if finishing last was his goal. I guess it comes down to how much we can work around a truth; the truth being tanking. Is Murray's honesty, albeit an undeniably calculated phrase in its ability to circumnavigate his goal of tanking, deplorable as it simultaneously puts the blame on someone else? I suppose that depends on who he's putting the blame on, and what the blame is for. It really doesn't matter what he says. No matter which option he chooses, people are going to be upset. Did go with the best option? Maybe not, but we'd still be right where we are right now if he did say something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 The GMs who get up to the mic at the draft and thank and congratulate a whole laundry list of cities and teams and people they don't care at all about are bigger liars than Tim Murray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) One and a half sharts. He took over the first one after RonRon had all but the final release the season before last. I believe the fellow who is sick in Florida is questioning TM somewhat, as is Rumble Fish. I certainly am holding out on the full on love of TM. I do question his integrity, as he had basically lied about not wanting to finish DFL, two years running. I do see your point and understand your qualms about GMTM. You see it as lying. I see it as toeing the league's party line and gamesmanship. The league doesn't want to admit that teams purposely tank for a draft pick and don't want the teams to openly admit it (and yet they recognize it happens which is why they've altered the lottery system). This year in particular is especially significant - the lottery system guarantees no worse than a top-2 pick for the worst team, and the top 2 this year are supposed to be exceptionally good - so the talk went from speculation to more open allegations. The league doesn't like that kind of talk so naturally GMTM didn't admit to tanking. You can make the argument that yes, of course GMTM deliberately tanked the team and that impugns his integrity. I would counter that this is no worse than the businessman who exploits loopholes on his taxes. Maybe a little slimy, but not exactly illegal, but tolerated by society. When I write that out, I'm not sure I want the Sabres to win that way. But I do want them to win. I'm hoping for results. I can see how everything GMTM does is building toward those results, so I'm willing to hold my nose and hope for better days. As a bit of an aside, I think if you look back at my posts over the last season, I was not a tanker early on. I merely used the tank (or rather, the possibility of McEichel) as a consolation when the Sabres lost. I wanted to see some good coming out of the futility that was the Buffalo Sabres this season. Up until the 14-game skid, I really rooted for a win every game. In December I was rooting for the Sabres to make the playoffs (if you recall, they weren't that far out of it). Then January happened. At some point during 0-for-January my perspective changed and started paying more attention to the Probability of McEichel than to the NHL standings. So for the anti-tankers, I kind of get it. I fell from grace you might say, but at one time I was on the lofty cloud of unimpeachable integrity with the rest of you. Whether I approved of the tank or not didn't affect the team's play and eventually I got more pragmatic; if it's a lost season, the way the Sabres would win would be to lose and get McEichel, so rooting against them started to creep into my mindset. Yuck. So I can't claim a high moral ground. I am one of the fans Mike Weber had an issue with (even though I haven't been to any games this year). But whether I can claim the moral high ground or not, I still hope to see a winning team in the next year or so. And whether the stout anti-tankers like the way the organization went about it or not, they will also benefit from the acquisition of top talent through the tank. I'm not sure if there's a point to all that... only that whichever side you are on the tank issue, we're all just fans of the Sabres. Edited April 14, 2015 by Neuvichs Perchatka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 My frustration with Murray is two fold. 1. I didn't like the way LaFontaine was handled... my grudge. Some of you think that it goes with the territory and LaFontaine misjudged the situation and walked away in a huff... fine and probably true to an extent but only because Murray doesn't appear to play well with others either unless you are his lap dog. 2. I think the way he handled Lemieux and now the Nolan situation is indicative of the kind of style he puts forward as a GM. His Uncle, while in DC was very much that way, couldn't handle the press, and got really prickly when confronted with questions about his mistakes. He didn't take any blame for his actions. Then bailing on his mistake about Lemieux, despite what he said, and shipping him off to Winnipeg. Finally, if you are going to lie, make it plausible or just don't say anything. Smile and pull a Marshawn Lynch.... Everyone says is a great judge of talent... Mess and Balls worked out great! (Sarcasm) Got us 30th, which is good in my book... but bad according to Murray, so which is it. Just saying, Murray leaves a lot to be desired from a good GM standpoint and from a talent evaluator. I don't want the Sabres to jump from one moron Darcy into another... Go Sabres... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 My frustration with Murray is two fold. 1. I didn't like the way LaFontaine was handled... my grudge. Some of you think that it goes with the territory and LaFontaine misjudged the situation and walked away in a huff... fine and probably true to an extent but only because Murray doesn't appear to play well with others either unless you are his lap dog. 2. I think the way he handled Lemieux and now the Nolan situation is indicative of the kind of style he puts forward as a GM. His Uncle, while in DC was very much that way, couldn't handle the press, and got really prickly when confronted with questions about his mistakes. He didn't take any blame for his actions. Then bailing on his mistake about Lemieux, despite what he said, and shipping him off to Winnipeg. Finally, if you are going to lie, make it plausible or just don't say anything. Smile and pull a Marshawn Lynch.... Everyone says is a great judge of talent... Mess and Balls worked out great! (Sarcasm) Got us 30th, which is good in my book... but bad according to Murray, so which is it. Just saying, Murray leaves a lot to be desired from a good GM standpoint and from a talent evaluator. I don't want the Sabres to jump from one moron Darcy into another... Go Sabres... I'll leave the rest of your post for others to respond to if they want, but Messy Balls was strictly a move to get to the cap floor. Nothing more. During our 10-3 run in December when we were closer to 8th in the conference than last, and before we were decimated with injuries, was Murray panicking for the tank? GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 ... Go Sabres... I'm wondering if that is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 My frustration with Murray is two fold. 1. I didn't like the way LaFontaine was handled... my grudge. The 90's called to thank you for not leaving it behind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 My frustration with Murray is two fold. 1. I didn't like the way LaFontaine was handled... my grudge. Some of you think that it goes with the territory and LaFontaine misjudged the situation and walked away in a huff... fine and probably true to an extent but only because Murray doesn't appear to play well with others either unless you are his lap dog. 2. I think the way he handled Lemieux and now the Nolan situation is indicative of the kind of style he puts forward as a GM. His Uncle, while in DC was very much that way, couldn't handle the press, and got really prickly when confronted with questions about his mistakes. He didn't take any blame for his actions. Then bailing on his mistake about Lemieux, despite what he said, and shipping him off to Winnipeg. Finally, if you are going to lie, make it plausible or just don't say anything. Smile and pull a Marshawn Lynch.... Everyone says is a great judge of talent... Mess and Balls worked out great! (Sarcasm) Got us 30th, which is good in my book... but bad according to Murray, so which is it. Just saying, Murray leaves a lot to be desired from a good GM standpoint and from a talent evaluator. I don't want the Sabres to jump from one moron Darcy into another... Go Sabres... Why do you blame Murray for LaFontaine? LaFontaine hired Murray. I'd blame Pegula and a few others for LaFontaine. The guy hired a GM and then was upset he didn't get to make the hockey decisions (as far as we know). Murray is a decision maker and that's 100% better than someone who waffles and wants consensus. He's confident in what he is doing. Thus, ZFG. He's doing his job and part of that job requirement is not that you have to paint rainbows for people. His statements are extraordinarily calculated and they are natural. This means he thinks this way, all the time. Call him Vulcan-esque if you will. You hang onto this "mistake" on Lemieux. There's no evidence supporting the theory. He drafted someone and used that as an asset to obtain someone else. A cold calculated decision says my path goes left, your path goes right. I'm going to ship you off to somewhere along your path and not on mine. There's no mistake there. It's reality. If your hanging onto "he should have known". Perhaps he did and he didn't care? Perhaps he looked at Lemieux as an asset he could draft right at the beginning of the 2nd round and send off to another team. Perhaps he never wanted him here but just wanted to use that pick for that purpose. You don't know it, we don't know it. Your presumption does not make it fact. Benoit and Meszaros were perfect signings. Veteran defenseman with whom he had a prior relationship. They are offered 1 year deals to try and salvage their careers and perhaps earn another year in the NHL. At the same time they eat up slots allowing Murray to keep his D in the minors a little longer. Not a mistake.. calculated. Hell, even Bucky Gleason admitted how great of a talent evaluator Murray is.. think about it. He did just enough to keep it close without being ridiculous. He had just enough talent to fail. Stop looking for problems and enjoy life a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 The 90's called to thank you for not leaving it behind... Nice :w00t: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I do see your point and understand your qualms about GMTM. You see it as lying. I see it as toeing the league's party line and gamesmanship. The league doesn't want to admit that teams purposely tank for a draft pick and don't want the teams to openly admit it (and yet they recognize it happens which is why they've altered the lottery system). This year in particular is especially significant - the lottery system guarantees no worse than a top-2 pick for the worst team, and the top 2 this year are supposed to be exceptionally good - so the talk went from speculation to more open allegations. The league doesn't like that kind of talk so naturally GMTM didn't admit to tanking. You can make the argument that yes, of course GMTM deliberately tanked the team and that impugns his integrity. I would counter that this is no worse than the businessman who exploits loopholes on his taxes. Maybe a little slimy, but not exactly illegal, but tolerated by society. When I write that out, I'm not sure I want the Sabres to win that way. But I do want them to win. I'm hoping for results. I can see how everything GMTM does is building toward those results, so I'm willing to hold my nose and hope for better days. As a bit of an aside, I think if you look back at my posts over the last season, I was not a tanker early on. I merely used the tank (or rather, the possibility of McEichel) as a consolation when the Sabres lost. I wanted to see some good coming out of the futility that was the Buffalo Sabres this season. Up until the 14-game skid, I really rooted for a win every game. In December I was rooting for the Sabres to make the playoffs (if you recall, they weren't that far out of it). Then January happened. At some point during 0-for-January my perspective changed and started paying more attention to the Probability of McEichel than to the NHL standings. So for the anti-tankers, I kind of get it. I fell from grace you might say, but at one time I was on the lofty cloud of unimpeachable integrity with the rest of you. Whether I approved of the tank or not didn't affect the team's play and eventually I got more pragmatic; if it's a lost season, the way the Sabres would win would be to lose and get McEichel, so rooting against them started to creep into my mindset. Yuck. So I can't claim a high moral ground. I am one of the fans Mike Weber had an issue with (even though I haven't been to any games this year). But whether I can claim the moral high ground or not, I still hope to see a winning team in the next year or so. And whether the stout anti-tankers like the way the organization went about it or not, they will also benefit from the acquisition of top talent through the tank. I'm not sure if there's a point to all that... only that whichever side you are on the tank issue, we're all just fans of the Sabres. Very good post, NP. I remember when your posting started to change, but that was a reflection of the reality of this most recent season and probably the season before that. I was very strongly anti-tank, but as of the end of the season there is no longer any difference between the pro and anti tankers. Like you said we are all just Sabre fans. We all want the team to do well. The tank / anti-tank is / are dead. I also hope that the Nolan dismissal will stop being a conversation piece soon ... as we get nearer the lottery, I suspect that will be all we will be talking about. Sabres hockey lives on. Lets hope for better things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I don't understand all this stuff about "blame." Let's put the "blame" where it belongs and that's on LaFontaine and Nolan. Patty has anger-management issues and Teddy has hockey-clue issues. And it's just hard to assign "blame" when both were given million dollar paydays upon being let go. Let's just call a spade a spade. Except pi2000, who can't be trusted to use the term in a non-pejorative fashion. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Very good post, NP. I remember when your posting started to change, but that was a reflection of the reality of this most recent season and probably the season before that. I was very strongly anti-tank, but as of the end of the season there is no longer any difference between the pro and anti tankers. Like you said we are all just Sabre fans. We all want the team to do well. The tank / anti-tank is / are dead. I also hope that the Nolan dismissal will stop being a conversation piece soon ... as we get nearer the lottery, I suspect that will be all we will be talking about. Sabres hockey lives on. Lets hope for better things. Well Said friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Just saying, Murray leaves a lot to be desired from a good GM standpoint and from a talent evaluator. We're at the nadir of the tank right now. I think before we can even begin to pass judgment on Murray's abilities, we probably need to wait a season and see how the team progresses. I don't blame you for your opinions about how he handled PLF, TN and Lemieux (although I don't necessarily agree with you). But it's still too early to grade his ability to judge talent. Let's see how the prospects he brought into the pipeline play out. Very good post, NP. Thanks. Coming from you that is a true compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm wondering if that is a lie. Can we stop with this? It's crap and you sound like Shcopp. Just because some of us aren't jumping up and down all a twitter like a little girl as Beiber walks by, doesn't mean that we actually want the Sabres to lose. We have been sold the future before, so we remain cautiously optimistic. We still want them to win. and I didn't mean just you, beerme1. others are saying this as well and it's really annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Thanks. Coming from you that is a true compliment. Awe shucks. (I think ... could go either way ... :unsure: ) Come here you big lug!! Time for a hug!! :wub: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Awe shucks. (I think ... could go either way ... :unsure: ) Come here you big lug!! Time for a hug!! :wub: No, no, no... the compliment is enough. :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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