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Buffalo Bills 2023 Thread

Brawndo

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GASabresIUFAN All Star

GASabresIUFAN

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The biggest issues with the Bills are Ken Dorsey and Josh Allen.  Josh won’t consistently take what the D gives him and doesn’t consistently use his outlet receivers.   Dorsey still hasn’t figured out to get Cook involved in the passing game and only just started using Kincaid in the slot.  

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Scottysabres First Liner

Scottysabres

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5 hours ago, JujuFish said:

Not only will they make it, they'll do so by winning the division, which guarantees a home game. And AFC team consistency? You know *every* AFC team that isn't the Chiefs has multiple losses, right?

 

Want to make it interesting? How about a username bet. You think they're most likely to miss the playoffs, I think they're most likely to make the playoffs. Whoever wins the best picks out a new username for the loser (which they're then stuck with for at least 6 months because that's how often you can name change here).

Ok, if they make it, I'll wear the name. You don't have to change yours if they don't make it in, as much fun as it sounds I'm not as invested in the Bills as you are, so I wouldn't do that to ya.

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

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8 hours ago, LTS said:

This is what I am curious about.  Lots of ammo being used on the coaching staff, but are the players executing what's called? Frankly I don't care enough to figure it out, but you have to wonder.

I watched the first Patriots drive and then flipped over the F1 pre-race show and never went back. I kept looking at scoring updates on my phone and shaking my head.

Clearly things are wrong and someone needs to make some changes.

In football I have a hard time blaming too much on coaching.  To me you either have a very bad coach (you get rid of those right away) or you have anything else (the 5th best to the 20th best coaches in the NFL I think are separated by a very thin margin). Its mostly to me, the players and the execution.  Bellicheck was an average to below average coach before he got Brady. Then all of a sudden he is the best in the league WITH Brady, and then without Brady he goes back to having a losing record.  Is McDermott a bottom 5-10 coach in the league? If he is, you try to replace him. If not, its more of an issue with the players/talent/lack of talent.

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Night Train Third Liner

Night Train

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19 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The biggest issues with the Bills are Ken Dorsey and Josh Allen.  Josh won’t consistently take what the D gives him and doesn’t consistently use his outlet receivers.   Dorsey still hasn’t figured out to get Cook involved in the passing game and only just started using Kincaid in the slot.  

 Allen wanted Dorsey to get the job when Daboll left and the Bills relented.

 He needs to be coached hard and not catered to anymore. His bad habits are not improving. Agreed that more motion, Cook, Kincaid and other ideas need to be implemented. Run the hurry up. Don't allow D substitution. 

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LTS

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18 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

In football I have a hard time blaming too much on coaching.  To me you either have a very bad coach (you get rid of those right away) or you have anything else (the 5th best to the 20th best coaches in the NFL I think are separated by a very thin margin). Its mostly to me, the players and the execution.  Bellicheck was an average to below average coach before he got Brady. Then all of a sudden he is the best in the league WITH Brady, and then without Brady he goes back to having a losing record.  Is McDermott a bottom 5-10 coach in the league? If he is, you try to replace him. If not, its more of an issue with the players/talent/lack of talent.

I think the whole game is a thin margin, but coaches who don't properly use the talent on the field are what decide those margins. Talent certainly plays into things as well.  They play off each other to be certain.

One of the biggest issues i see is that the Bills want to pressure the QB by bringing extra people, and that works, if you pressure the QB. But, with a sketchy defensive backfield and no pressure you are running the wrong play calls.

That said, if Ken Dorsey calls a great play and a receiver runs the wrong route, or Allen uses his progressions incorrectly, it's not the coaches fault.

 

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Taro T Hall of Famer

Taro T

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7 minutes ago, LTS said:

I think the whole game is a thin margin, but coaches who don't properly use the talent on the field are what decide those margins. Talent certainly plays into things as well.  They play off each other to be certain.

One of the biggest issues i see is that the Bills want to pressure the QB by bringing extra people, and that works, if you pressure the QB. But, with a sketchy defensive backfield and no pressure you are running the wrong play calls.

That said, if Ken Dorsey calls a great play and a receiver runs the wrong route, or Allen uses his progressions incorrectly, it's not the coaches fault.

 

Or Allen's bum shoulder causes him to be firing high and to the right of the target consistently, that's not on the coaches either.

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mjd1001

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On 10/24/2023 at 12:56 PM, Taro T said:

Or Allen's bum shoulder causes him to be firing high and to the right of the target consistently, that's not on the coaches either.

Posted this before, but it probably is worth repeating now.

Josh Allen is NOT one of those QB's who can play though an injury without it impacting his game in a very very large way:


Last year Josh Allen got hurt in a November game against the Jets. The Bills played 11 games from then until the end of the year, including 2 playoff games. In those 11 games:

Team was 8W-3L with 26.9 points per game. Allen completed 60.9% for 2701 yards, 19td, 11ints.

In the previous 11 games (including 2 playoff games) before the injury (matching the 11 game number to get the best comparison):
Team was 9W-2L with 31.1 points per game. Allen completed 69.4% for 3074 yards, 30td, 6 ints.

 

Since his 'shoulder' injury this year, things look the same.
 

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Pimlach All Star

Pimlach

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On 10/23/2023 at 5:30 PM, mjd1001 said:

In football I have a hard time blaming too much on coaching.  To me you either have a very bad coach (you get rid of those right away) or you have anything else (the 5th best to the 20th best coaches in the NFL I think are separated by a very thin margin). Its mostly to me, the players and the execution.  Bellicheck was an average to below average coach before he got Brady. Then all of a sudden he is the best in the league WITH Brady, and then without Brady he goes back to having a losing record.  Is McDermott a bottom 5-10 coach in the league? If he is, you try to replace him. If not, its more of an issue with the players/talent/lack of talent.

The reality in the NFL is that no coach is gonna win much without a top QB. 

The myth here is Bellichick was a below average coach.  He never was.  He was a product of Bills Parcells and was the defensive genius that beat us in SB XXV (wide right).  Buffalo has a far superior roster that year and was the best team in the league and they were peaking at the right time.  Bellichick's defensive game plan was brilliant. 

Bellichick earned the head coached job at Cleveland and was just below .500 with a below average team, he did get one 11-5 season with them in 5 years.    He then went to the Jets as a DC and was still so highly regarded that the Pats* traded to get him as their head coach to replace Parcells.  When does that happen?   

From there he won championships at NE like no other coach has, maybe ever.  Sure with Brady.  Brady was a big part of it, but Bellichick won lots of different ways with lots of players and for a long time.  Keeping the team together and losing coordinators and still maintianing a very high level for 20 years - not easy to do.  The Bills are yet to digest the Daboll for Dorsey switch.  

How can a below average coach do all that?   Doug Marone was below average, so has Chan Gaily, not Bill Bellichick.  

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Pimlach

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22 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Allen has been regressing and did not have a good game on Sunday, but given Daboll’s an Icy relationship with McDermott, this gives me pause.

 

 

What has Dorsey done to earn Cart Blanche control of the offense?   

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12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The reality in the NFL is that no coach is gonna win much without a top QB. 

The myth here is Bellichick was a below average coach.  He never was.  He was a product of Bills Parcells and was the defensive genius that beat us in SB XXV (wide right).  Buffalo has a far superior roster that year and was the best team in the league and they were peaking at the right time.  Bellichick's defensive game plan was brilliant. 

Bellichick earned the head coached job at Cleveland and was just below .500 with a below average team, he did get one 11-5 season with them in 5 years.    He then went to the Jets as a DC and was still so highly regarded that the Pats* traded to get him as their head coach to replace Parcells.  When does that happen?   

From there he won championships at NE like no other coach has, maybe ever.  Sure with Brady.  Brady was a big part of it, but Bellichick won lots of different ways with lots of players and for a long time.  Keeping the team together and losing coordinators and still maintianing a very high level for 20 years - not easy to do.  The Bills are yet to digest the Daboll for Dorsey switch.  

How can a below average coach do all that?   Doug Marone was below average, so has Chan Gaily, not Bill Bellichick.  

I just think he was a great D-coordinator, but an average head coach.  Average doesn't mean you are bad at everything, it means you are good at some things and bad at others.  Maybe 'keeping the team together' was something he was good at, but again, if you look at that roster there was a LOT of turnover, so he didn't really keep it together, and a lot of the key pieces they added were because of Brady, not him.  How many interviews have we heard now with former players who said they hated playing for Bellichick, and that the only reason they stated in New England was because of Brady and the chance to win? I don't know the number, but there have been a few of those. If anything, that is another strike against BB.

Tony Dungy is another coach who I think was about average.  Before he coached Manning, He was 56-46 (including the playoffs) and that was with a Tampa team that many considered to have a good roster (not average).  But put him with Manning, he is now 98-33. That is a HUGE difference.  Was he a great coach? 

So maybe we are splitting hairs here, I respect your opinion, and I'm not saying Bellichick was BAD. I just think you could have taken a bunch of other coaches, put them in control of New England, and they would have done just as good.  Take some like Andy Reid and put him coaching that New England team over the same time, and I think they would have been even better.

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That Aud Smell Hall of Famer

That Aud Smell

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On 10/23/2023 at 6:30 PM, mjd1001 said:

Bellicheck was an average to below average coach before he got Brady. Then all of a sudden he is the best in the league WITH Brady, and then without Brady he goes back to having a losing record.

This is a wild take. And I'm here for it.

I mean, it's effing WAY out there. But it's a fun one.

Phil Jackson was an average coach but for Jordan?

Belichick is widely - almost universally (thanks to recency bias) - talked about as the greatest of all-time when it comes to football coaching and maybe the GOAT coach in general. So, hot-take away, my man. *Tsssssss*

 

 

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Pimlach All Star

Pimlach

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25 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Posted this before, but it probably is worth repeating now.

Josh Allen is NOT one of those QB's who can play though an injury without it impacting his game in a very very large way:


Last year Josh Allen got hurt in a November game against the Jets. The Bills played 11 games from then until the end of the year, including 2 playoff games. In those 11 games:

Team was 8W-3L with 26.9 points per game. Allen completed 60.9% for 2701 yards, 19td, 11ints.

In the previous 11 games (including 2 playoff games) before the injury (matching the 11 game number to get the best comparison):
Team was 9W-2L with 31.1 points per game. Allen completed 69.4% for 3074 yards, 30td, 6 ints.

 

Since his 'shoulder' injury this year, things look the same.
 

Name a QB that plays just as good injured as he does healthy?  There is no data out there to support he is any worse than any other QB when playing with an injury.  They guy is tough as nails and plays injured all the time.  

Bolded sentence is unfair to Allen.  What is a "very very large way"?   Lots of other factors to consider in those set of numbers including the health of his teammates, competition, weather, etc.  His numbers while inured last year are still very good and better than most QBs in the league - so the "very very large way" is not supported.  Certainly the elbow injury affected his play, he is the one guy that touches the ball every play, and the guy throwing it.  

I think he is hampered by an injury right now but there are so many things wrong with the Bills right now that he has almost no help keeping things going. 

The Bills are sleepwalking right now.  The Bills locker room has not been good since the end of last season and the coaching staff is not getting them ready to go.  They were completely unprepared for Jax in London, and since that game they were outplayed by two of the worst teams in the league.  There are problems - the team lacks playmakers on offense, the OL is average at best, and they are very thin on defense with key injuries at every position.   Josh's shoulder is a problem, but not the only problem. 

 

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Pimlach

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20 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I just think he was a great D-coordinator, but an average head coach.  Average doesn't mean you are bad at everything, it means you are good at some things and bad at others.  Maybe 'keeping the team together' was something he was good at, but again, if you look at that roster there was a LOT of turnover, so he didn't really keep it together, and a lot of the key pieces they added were because of Brady, not him.  How many interviews have we heard now with former players who said they hated playing for Bellichick, and that the only reason they stated in New England was because of Brady and the chance to win? I don't know the number, but there have been a few of those. If anything, that is another strike against BB.

Tony Dungy is another coach who I think was about average.  Before he coached Manning, He was 56-46 (including the playoffs) and that was with a Tampa team that many considered to have a good roster (not average).  But put him with Manning, he is now 98-33. That is a HUGE difference.  Was he a great coach? 

So maybe we are splitting hairs here, I respect your opinion, and I'm not saying Bellichick was BAD. I just think you could have taken a bunch of other coaches, put them in control of New England, and they would have done just as good.  Take some like Andy Reid and put him coaching that New England team over the same time, and I think they would have been even better.

I get what you mean but i cannot agree that Bellichick is an average coach.  all the data, the longevity, the rings - they all spell one of the greatest.

He kept it together in the free agency and salary cap era and he did it longer then Lombardi, Shula, Landry, Knoll, Walsh,  - guys that did not have free agency or salary cap for most of their careers.   We are taking about 20 years.   His ability to draft and develop was key, even drafting at the end of the rounds.   He had periods of great defense and below average defense and he won.  He had periods of great offense and just average offense and he won.  Lets see how many teams match his accomplishments before we call him average.  

Look what he just did to the Bills.  He shut them down for a half, and took a team averaging 12 points per game and put 29 on us.  When I look at game day coaching, he has no peer.  

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