Buffalo Bills 2018-2019

[TrueBlueGED]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I have for a while now thought of Jimbo as an entitled jerk in his youth who has, with age and great personal loss, learned humility and become a pretty good guy.

Completely agree. 

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

They picked him in August. That's there guy and then they preceded to watch him to make sure. That's not how you do things. That's finding facts to suit theories. Started to buy into him in August, the kid had played 1 season of college at that point. He also goes on to rave about arm strength while dismissing accuracy concerns. Sounds like tunnel vision not "the evaluation process for Qb's".  

They didn’t “pick him in August.” It says they started to buy into him then. I’m sure they were buying into other prospects around the same time.

I find it encouraging to know they’ve had their eye on him for a while instead of buying into the hype of a few months leading up to the draft. The evaluation he gave at the senior bowl was also very encouraging because he was highlighting mechanics over performance in what’s become an overhyped event.

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I have for a while now thought of Jimbo as an entitled jerk in his youth who has, with age and great personal loss, learned humility and become a pretty good guy.

I’m here for the most part. Last night’s speech was fantastic.

I also have a slight uncomfortability with those who never had to pay for their sins, though. He and Jim Brown seem to be known domestic abusers who breezed through in an era that didn’t care enough about women.

[That Aud Smell]

3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I also have a slight uncomfortability with those who never had to pay for their sins, though. He and Jim Brown seem to be known domestic abusers who breezed through in an era that didn’t care enough about women.

I knew Jim had a reputation as a womanizer, but an abuser too?

Also: This sort of thing is tricky to get into. Seems like we are always looking back 25-30 years and are in disbelief at what people used to get away with. That's not to excuse it, mind you.

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Hoss said:

They didn’t “pick him in August.” It says they started to buy into him then. I’m sure they were buying into other prospects around the same time.

I find it encouraging to know they’ve had their eye on him for a while instead of buying into the hype of a few months leading up to the draft. The evaluation he gave at the senior bowl was also very encouraging because he was highlighting mechanics over performance in what’s become an overhyped event.

I’m here for the most part. Last night’s speech was fantastic.

I also have a slight uncomfortability with those who never had to pay for their sins, though. He and Jim Brown seem to be known domestic abusers who breezed through in an era that didn’t care enough about women.

The the bit about Allen: well stated.  That he was one that they identified to look closely at back in August implies they did their due dilligence.  (Whether they were right or wrong won't be known for at least2, if not 3, years (assuming McCarron & Peterman can successfully step on a rubber mat w/out breaking).)

To the bit about Kelly: stories of womanizing were rampant (& well documented).  Like TAS, have not heard rumors of domestic violence.  (At a minimum, do not recall DV rumors from back then.)

[That Aud Smell]

36 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Like TAS, have not heard rumors of domestic violence.  (At a minimum, do not recall DV rumors from back then.)

Yeah - the more I think about it, the more I can't recall any such claims being made. Can you provide a link, @Hoss?

[Hoss]

I’ve heard many people who’ve been around much longer than myself talk about JK’s alleged abuse of Jill while he was a player. I don’t have links. A quick google search pops up some other internet speculation, so I’m certainly not the only one who has heard this.

[Weave]

The only thing I remember about JK treating women badly was when he threw a drink (glass and all IIRC) into the face of a woman at a party.  My memory doesn't recall if she pressed charges or if she sued.  I do recall it being all over the news for a short bit.

Even with that being my only memory of the time, I was never comfortable with the love JK recieved in Buffalo.  I always had a nagging sense that he was putting on a good guy act most of the time.

I know I'm in the minority, and I keep my mouth shut about it, but I'm uncomfortable with the showering of emotion he's getting now.  I guess leading a team to 4 Superbowls will do that in a championship starved city. 

[inkman]

26 minutes ago, Weave said:

The only thing I remember about JK treating women badly was when he threw a drink (glass and all IIRC) into the face of a woman at a party.  My memory doesn't recall if she pressed charges or if she sued.  I do recall it being all over the news for a short bit.

Even with that being my only memory of the time, I was never comfortable with the love JK recieved in Buffalo.  I always had a nagging sense that he was putting on a good guy act most of the time.

I know I'm in the minority, and I keep my mouth shut about it, but I'm uncomfortable with the showering of emotion he's getting now.  I guess leading a team to 4 Superbowls will do that in a championship starved city. 

I won't kick a guy while he's down but I was never a fan. It's nice he's become a Buffalonion and a champion for buffalo. Nice accomplishment from a guy who seemingly never wanted to be here.

[shrader]

I think that whole speech was the perfect example of who he has become. With everything he’s going through right now, he talked more about Hunter than anything else. Those eight years changed him. 

[The Dominator]

32 minutes ago, shrader said:

I think that whole speech was the perfect example of who he has become. With everything he’s going through right now, he talked more about Hunter than anything else. Those eight years changed him. 

My feelings as well. As someone who was born during the super bowl years, I can only go off of other fans' sentiments about Jimbo the player/young man. But what always strikes me about the older Jim is his inclusion of Hunter in virtually every public comment of his, even when the topic has no direct relation to Hunter. 

I find it unfair to judge him from such a distance, but either:

1. Jimbo has hidden behind religion as a way to cope/deal with his past (which is a feeling I've had about him in the past). I don't want to turn this into a topic that shouldn't be discussed, but his speech was full of religious comments. 

OR

2. He has taken his lumps and everything that life has thrown at him and has truly changed through circumstance. 

I tend to try and find the good in people so I would like to think that #2 is where Jim is at in life at the moment. 

[That Aud Smell]

12 hours ago, Hoss said:

I’ve heard many people who’ve been around much longer than myself talk about JK’s alleged abuse of Jill while he was a player. I don’t have links. A quick google search pops up some other internet speculation, so I’m certainly not the only one who has heard this.

Well, if we accept as true that he was drinking heavily, using booger sugar, and chasing tail, it’s not a huge leap to imagine  abuse too.

And if the abuse was in fact kept quiet by the media, that’s perhaps a reflection of the times.

[LTS]

I think, that given no rumors or innuendo about abuse, it's a HUGE leap to get to that point, regardless of the other behaviors.  He had a reputation as a party boy, not one of violence.

Here's my take on this.

I knew people who were around Jim Kelly during those times.  He was unfaithful.  He was an absolute jerk to be around. More than once time Kent Hull physically set him straight when he was not as giving as he should have been.  I won't try to recall any stories at this point because it was long time ago and I might screw something up.

All of that said, Jim Kelly was confronted about his behavior and owned it.  Through some amount of introspection and with the assistance and support of his wife he changed his ways.  She has forgiven him.  By all accounts since then he's been a very different person.

You can dislike Kelly for what he was in his prime as a football player.  However, I think it's a stretch to insinuate he was a domestic abuser because of it.  In addition, you can't discount his wife's actions in all of this.  As far as I am concerned, she is the one who had to live with him and if she can forgive him, that's all that matters.

It would appear he has changed as a person.  I'd rather be happy for his change than to continue to attack him for what he used to be.  

[Eleven]

15 hours ago, Hoss said:

I’ve heard many people who’ve been around much longer than myself talk about JK’s alleged abuse of Jill while he was a player. I don’t have links. A quick google search pops up some other internet speculation, so I’m certainly not the only one who has heard this.

It was a very, very common discussion point back in the day.

That said, you and I don't know whether or how he repented.  We do know that he's a different man now.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Eleven

[LTS]

Just now, Eleven said:

It was a very, very common discussion point back in the day.

It certainly wasn't a topic in my circles.  He abused the relationship, but I don't recall anyone ever saying he was physically abusive with her.  It may have been verbal abuse but not really classified as such.

Like I said, I'm just living on past memories of conversations with people who were in that circle.

[Eleven]

12 minutes ago, LTS said:

It certainly wasn't a topic in my circles.  He abused the relationship, but I don't recall anyone ever saying he was physically abusive with her.  It may have been verbal abuse but not really classified as such.

Like I said, I'm just living on past memories of conversations with people who were in that circle.

Same here; it's really all we can do.

[That Aud Smell]

53 minutes ago, LTS said:

I think, that given no rumors or innuendo about abuse, it's a HUGE leap to get to that point, regardless of the other behaviors.  He had a reputation as a party boy, not one of violence.

I think that's mostly fair. I want to say that I've never heard one peep - not a rumour, nothing - about him being an abuser. But if we accept, as I think we must, that he was boozing and putting stuff up his nose and running around, then it is not a huge leap to think he may have hit women too. Booze and coke are a combustible combination.

52 minutes ago, Eleven said:

It was a very, very common discussion point back in the day.

That said, you and I don't know whether or how he repented.  We do know that he's a different man now.

That is quite clear.

My wife and I have this debate sometimes: If we think the way in which someone found salvation, call it what you will, was cheap or poorly reasoned or eyeroll inducing, is it any less valuable? You can't really argue with the results, in this case.

50 minutes ago, LTS said:

It certainly wasn't a topic in my circles.  He abused the relationship, but I don't recall anyone ever saying he was physically abusive with her.  It may have been verbal abuse but not really classified as such.

Like I said, I'm just living on past memories of conversations with people who were in that circle.

Same. I was a teenager when Kelly came on the scene and I was college-aged when the Bills were in their glory. I consumed every available piece of information about the team, then and for many years after. Shoot. I was once rocked off of well liquor and Budweiser at the Big Tree Inn and on another occasion was all muzzy from table Italian red at Ilio DiPaolo's, and heard people who knew Kelly personally telling stories of his mischief and misdeeds. But I never heard them say that he hit his wife or anyone else. (And, to be clear: These people were dishing - they were not holding back.)

Edited July 20, 2018 by That Aud Smell

[Weave]

I'm guessing I'm the only one that remembers that glass in the face incident then?

[That Aud Smell]

8 minutes ago, Weave said:

I'm guessing I'm the only one that remembers that glass in the face incident then?

I do recall hearing about that.  I think we're talking about something a little different. Something more pervasive, ongoing.

[Weave]

13 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I do recall hearing about that.  I think we're talking about something a little different. Something more pervasive, ongoing.

This one had evidence.

Most of you are right, if his wife had let it go, so should I.

Nonetheless, I am not comfortable with the adoration.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I'm guessing I'm the only one that remembers that glass in the face incident then?

Wasn't that a bar fight though?  Assuming it was, that's an entirely different kettle of fish from domestic violence.

[LTS]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I'm guessing I'm the only one that remembers that glass in the face incident then?

 I honestly have no recollection of this.  If there is any information on it I will gladly read it.

1 hour ago, Weave said:

This one had evidence.

Most of you are right, if his wife had let it go, so should I.

Nonetheless, I am not comfortable with the adoration.

If he abused his wife, physically or verbally, I would not let it go.  Cheating is pretty despicable, but it's hardly rare.  While it may be emotionally difficult to deal with for the one being cheated on, it's certainly a stretch, for me, from abuse.

But, for the cheating thing... I'm okay if his wife is okay. 

I give him credit for turning his life around.  I thought his speech was well delivered and meaningful.  I'm definitely not going to go much farther than that with it.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Wasn't that a bar fight though?  Assuming it was, that's an entirely different kettle of fish from domestic violence.

I think so, and agreed.

52 minutes ago, LTS said:

 I honestly have no recollection of this.  If there is any information on it I will gladly read it.

Here's pieces of the report from 1988:

In legal papers that attorneys for Ms. Lyons have been trying to serve on Kelly since Monday evening, she claims she suffered neck injuries when the Bills quarterback allegedly threw her to the floor during a Dec. 20, 1987, incident at La Boom Club, 3036 Seneca St., West Seneca.

In her lawsuit, Miss Lyons claims Kelly manhandled her after she criticized, in front of other bar patrons, his recent play. 

....

Tobia insisted that Miss Lyons deliberately started an altercation while Kelly was dining with his parents and other guests in a private room at the West Seneca club and was thrown out of the restaurant after she allegedly poured a drink over Kelly's head without provocation.

One of Kelly's guests mistook Miss Lyons for a friend of one of Kelly's relatives, and she was being introduced to Kelly when she allegedly poured the drink on his head, Tobia said.

Although Miss Lyons charges that Kelly threw her to the floor after she criticized his play, Kelly contends he merely grabbed her hand and said, "Are you crazy?" when she doused him, Tobia said.

"He denies knowing her, or ever talking to her or ever making any kind of obscene gestures or comments toward her," Tobia said.

56 minutes ago, LTS said:

I give him credit for turning his life around.  I thought his speech was well delivered and meaningful.  I'm definitely not going to go much farther than that with it.

Same here.

[That Aud Smell]

Btw, there are also reports of an incident that occurred in/around 1990 in which a woman complained (criminally? maybe for civil damages?) that she was at a picnic and Kelly hit her in the face with a water balloon (that she claimed was filled with beer) and caused her an injury to her mouth and teeth. The write-ups for that are pretty amusing. #fourorfivebeers 

[LTS]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

I think so, and agreed.

Here's pieces of the report from 1988:

In legal papers that attorneys for Ms. Lyons have been trying to serve on Kelly since Monday evening, she claims she suffered neck injuries when the Bills quarterback allegedly threw her to the floor during a Dec. 20, 1987, incident at La Boom Club, 3036 Seneca St., West Seneca.

In her lawsuit, Miss Lyons claims Kelly manhandled her after she criticized, in front of other bar patrons, his recent play. 

....

Tobia insisted that Miss Lyons deliberately started an altercation while Kelly was dining with his parents and other guests in a private room at the West Seneca club and was thrown out of the restaurant after she allegedly poured a drink over Kelly's head without provocation.

One of Kelly's guests mistook Miss Lyons for a friend of one of Kelly's relatives, and she was being introduced to Kelly when she allegedly poured the drink on his head, Tobia said.

Although Miss Lyons charges that Kelly threw her to the floor after she criticized his play, Kelly contends he merely grabbed her hand and said, "Are you crazy?" when she doused him, Tobia said.

"He denies knowing her, or ever talking to her or ever making any kind of obscene gestures or comments toward her," Tobia said.

Same here.

Wow.  I did a search to see if there were more details and there weren't.  There's no real information to comment other than something happened and she claims to have suffered neck injuries.  I can't even find what happened with the lawsuit.  It's not enough to comment either way on and definitely doesn't lead me to believe he's abusive.

49 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Btw, there are also reports of an incident that occurred in/around 1990 in which a woman complained (criminally? maybe for civil damages?) that she was at a picnic and Kelly hit her in the face with a water balloon (that she claimed was filled with beer) and caused her an injury to her mouth and teeth. The write-ups for that are pretty amusing. #fourorfivebeers 

This sounds like--

1 - Harmless accident but also what happens when you have money.

2 - a tragic waste of beer (even if it's Budweiser)

3 - something I would do if I had the money to consider engaging in a tragic waste of beer.

[Doohickie]

6 minutes ago, LTS said:

2 - a tragic waste of beer (even if it's Budweiser)

It wasn't really beer.  It was just Coors Light.