Fire Phil Fan Club

[North Buffalo]

Fair enough... though prep dont think is the problem... execution and talent especially in the forward corps. They are coming, but not there yet and another high quality D along with Ghule will really help.

[That Aud Smell]

Maybe. Sounds like hyperbole to make a point that didn't require the hyperbole IMHO.

 

I literally am asking, now for a 3rd time, if this has been stated/ reported anywhere else before. I had not seen that before. Hooing it's true, but expecting it's hyperbole.

I understand the skepticism. Vogl’s not generally a hyperbolic writer. I take what he wrote mostly at face value.

[SwampD]

My eye test they do just as many if not more stretch passes this year.

 

Not sure what that means.

[dudacek]

My eye test they do just as many if not more stretch passes this year.

Not sure what that means.

Consult your optometrist ???? Edited March 3, 2018 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

My eye test they do just as many if not more stretch passes this year.

 

Not sure what that means.

We averaged 20 stretch passes from Defensemen with no forwards back in the defensive zone and at least 2 of them sitting at the blue line per game last season, with a ~15% success rate. There's not a chance that we come close to that this year. 

 

I have a break coming up in which the Sabres play a lot of games, so maybe I'll get some hard numbers, but I agree with dudacek, the difference in transition strategy from the defensive zone is massive compared to last year. 

Correction - we averaged FAILING in transition 20 times per game this way. We averaged actually attempting it even more than that. 

We still stretch pass when we think we see a chance to spring guys, but that's way different than setting up behind the net, waiting for the F's to all set up down there, while the other team sits back and waits, and then forcing it up the boards. 

[dudacek]

It also seems like not only are the forwards staying closer to the D on transition, they will frequently push the puck back to them if they don’t have a clear passing, or skating lane.

 

Clearly they’ve been told it’s better to regroup then turn the puck over.

Edited March 3, 2018 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

 

I haven't seen this happen more than 3-5 times in any game this year. And when it does, everyone gets mad at Risto because he didn't have to do it. It's been a tremendous change. This is what I counted 15-20 times every single game last season. If you could show it happening more than 5 even once, I'd be stunned. 

And to be clear, the times where the forward actually caught those passes and ensued to enter the zone as possession, by my standards I had created that was a "successful passing entry". So in reality, the stretch pass count was even higher than this. These transitions that involved chips were successful when we were able to recover possession after doing so, it was a different style of entry by definition when it was carried in after a stretch, which would actually make the counts look even better this year.

 

It also seems like not only are the forwards staying closer to the D on transition, they will frequently push the puck back to them if they don’t have a clear passing, or skating lane.

Clearly they’ve been told it’s better to regroup then turn the puck over.

You mean like this?

I'm going to do my best to gather numbers to see how they compare, I've had my interest in hockey stuff sparked again.

[woods-racer]

It also seems like not only are the forwards staying closer to the D on transition, they will frequently push the puck back to them if they don’t have a clear passing, or skating lane.

 

Clearly they’ve been told it’s better to regroup then turn the puck over.

 

I like to refer to this as Carolina possession.

 

Thanks to Flagg and his tutorial at how much better Carolina was/is at puck possession and zone entry with a less *skilled* team, which I wanted to see us implement.

 

We're doing it, but it must be very difficult to learn because it is taken them forever to get it.

Edited March 3, 2018 by woods-racer

[pi2000]

At even strength they've cut down chances against (shots against we are 13th instead of 28th) and high danger chances against. Our best players are scoring at their highest even strength totals they have in their time in Buffalo. I made a huge post aobut this that I'm sure you dismissed offhand because of its conclusion, but we lost a projected 30 goals from depth by replacing guys like Gionta with guys like Nolan/Griffith and our goaltending is much worse despite facing fewer and lower quality shots. If you gave us last year's goaltending in power play (something neither Phil nor Dan coached) our goal differential would literally be twice as good as it was last year.

 

I know you don't give a ######, but that doesn't make it untrue. And believe it or not, Lehner and the power play have nothing to do with 5v5 transition play, which is what I was talking about in thefirst place.

I don't believe for a minute that a drop in PP% and secondary scoring would make a 20 point difference in the standings.

 

And you're basically absolving all responsibility Housley has for overseeing the PP and getting production from his 3rd and 4th lines.

[SwampD]

We averaged 20 stretch passes from Defensemen with no forwards back in the defensive zone and at least 2 of them sitting at the blue line per game last season, with a ~15% success rate. There's not a chance that we come close to that this year. 

 

I have a break coming up in which the Sabres play a lot of games, so maybe I'll get some hard numbers, but I agree with dudacek, the difference in transition strategy from the defensive zone is massive compared to last year. 

Correction - we averaged FAILING in transition 20 times per game this way. We averaged actually attempting it even more than that. 

We still stretch pass when we think we see a chance to spring guys, but that's way different than setting up behind the net, waiting for the F's to all set up down there, while the other team sits back and waits, and then forcing it up the boards.

 

I guess I'm seeing more stretch passes this year, it's just that they are the good kind not the bad. Stretch passes are like cholesterol. This year, the Sabres are eating more avocado and olive oil instead of bacon and wings.

 

That actually makes sense and sound right to me.

[nfreeman]

I guess I'm seeing more stretch passes this year, it's just that they are the good kind not the bad. Stretch passes are like cholesterol. This year, the Sabres are eating more avocado and olive oil instead of bacon and wings.

 

That actually makes sense and sound right to me.

Well, congrats on agreeing with your own post.

[SwampD]

Well, congrats on agreeing with your own post.

I was agreeing with Flaggs post on the quality of stretch passes we are seeing this year.

[PerreaultForever]

I'm still undecided on Housley. There's no question that he knows what it takes to win in this league now. When Housley played he was considered a little small for D and a little soft, but his game would have been a perfect fit for this league now. The question remains however, can he translate that idea to his players and get them to do it. History shows that it is pretty rare for star players to become star coaches. They just never get how to bring that stuff down to joe average. The best coaches are usually the journeymen. I give him another year but I just don't see Housley as a good teacher. 

[pi2000]

I'm still undecided on Housley. There's no question that he knows what it takes to win in this league now. When Housley played he was considered a little small for D and a little soft, but his game would have been a perfect fit for this league now. The question remains however, can he translate that idea to his players and get them to do it. History shows that it is pretty rare for star players to become star coaches. They just never get how to bring that stuff down to joe average. The best coaches are usually the journeymen. I give him another year but I just don't see Housley as a good teacher. 

 

I agree with this.

 

Star players have a burning passion for the game, an obsession, they just cannot let go of.   That's what makes them so special.   You can't teach that, and it can be frustrating as a coach to try and relate to players who don't love the game at the same level as you do.  

[dudacek]

I just don't see Housley as a good teacher.

 

Curious as to why.

I look at a majority of young players (Eichel, Reinhart, Nelson, Antipin, Rodrigues) improving as the season has progressed. Risto is debatable and McCabe has probably regressed.

Team-wise, he seems to changed the way they play the game.

Edited March 6, 2018 by dudacek

[PerreaultForever]

Curious as to why.

I look at a majority of young players (Eichel, Reinhart, Nelson, Antipin, Rodrigues) improving as the season has progressed. Risto is debatable and McCabe has probably regressed.

Team-wise, he seems to changed the way they play the game.

The thing with star players is the inherent passion like pi2000 said but it's also the inability to sort of dumb it down for everyone else. The non stars. Star players are like those university professors or math teachers that you run into in school that are really brilliant and they can write massive equations on the board but they can't explain to you what they did in any terms you might understand. A great mathematician is rarely a great teacher, and a star player is rarely a great teacher as a coach. 

There might be one, but I cannot think of a single example of a successful coach who was a star player. The Babcocks, the Quennevilles, etc. they were all average players at best. 

[Weave]

The thing with star players is the inherent passion like pi2000 said but it's also the inability to sort of dumb it down for everyone else. The non stars. Star players are like those university professors or math teachers that you run into in school that are really brilliant and they can write massive equations on the board but they can't explain to you what they did in any terms you might understand. A great mathematician is rarely a great teacher, and a star player is rarely a great teacher as a coach. 

There might be one, but I cannot think of a single example of a successful coach who was a star player. The Babcocks, the Quennevilles, etc. they were all average players at best. 

 

 

 

 

Larry Robinson right off the top of my head.

 

I think the biggest flaw in that argument is, there are so few stars relative to the rest of the NHL population.  The ratio is going to be off.  And the stars are the highest paid by alot and may not have nearly the motivation to continue their career as they are better set up financially for the rest of their lives.

Edited March 6, 2018 by We've

[PerreaultForever]

Larry Robinson, ok, I give you that one.  This isn't my theory by the way, I've heard it said by many "experts" many times. It's not that there are not enough stars, but there aren't many of them that do want to coach after. The guys who didn't make the big bucks are a little more motivated for a second career. 

[calti]

Sabres are definitely improved. I like the direction they are going in. Good for Phil. He hung in there through an awful first half and much heavy criticism.

[Doohickie]

Sabres are definitely improved. I like the direction they are going in. Good for Phil. He hung in there through an awful first half and much heavy criticism.

 

And more importantly, he didn't throw the players under the bus.... well not much anyway, and he didn't name names.  He took a lot of criticism with poise and grace.

[Huckleberry]

Firing this coach would be a mistake, can't just expect a new coach and system will go well.   Need some continuity.

[pi2000]

Can't believe all the leash everyone is giving Housley. Low expectations fan base I guess.

 

He took an upgraded roster and has them on pace for a 20 point drop in the standings. 20 points less than a coach who got ran out of town.

[Randall Flagg]

Can't believe all the leash everyone is giving Housley. Low expectations fan base I guess.

 

He took an upgraded roster and has them on pace for a 20 point drop in the standings. 20 points less than a coach who got ran out of town.

Phil Housley has still faced significantly more criticism in his first season here than Dan did in 2015-16, which reflects where the teams are in the standings. Your comparison to the board's reaction to Bylsma's team finishing last season on a 55 point pace during the last 25 games after coming within 4-6 points of a playoff spot at the most critical time of the season after his coaching had been shown to be ineffective both on the ice and as a motivator is silly in that regard.

 

"Upgraded roster" whose depth is on pace for more than 30 less goals despite playing in a system that has every top six skater pacing for Sabres-career highs in points, which had Seth Griffith, Matt Moulson, Jason Pominville, Jordan Nolan, Matt Tennyson, and Jacob Josefson all slotted into the lineup on opening night with no injuries. 

 

I wish I lived in pi's world. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[Taro T]

Phil Housley has still faced significantly more criticism in his first season here than Dan did in 2015-16, which reflects where the teams are in the standings. Your comparison to the board's reaction to Bylsma's team finishing last season on a 55 point pace during the last 25 games after coming within 4-6 points of a playoff spot at the most critical time of the season after his coaching had been shown to be ineffective both on the ice and as a motivator is silly in that regard.

"Upgraded roster" whose depth is on pace for more than 30 less goals despite playing in a system that has every top six skater pacing for career highs in points, which had Seth Griffith, Matt Moulson, Jason Pominville, Jordan Nolan, Matt Tennyson, and Jacob Josefson all slotted into the lineup on opening night with no injuries. 

 

I wish I lived in pi's world.

 

In fairness, Griffith was in because Rodrigues was injured & Tennyson was in because Bogosian was injured. But, yeah, the rest were simply pencilled in just because.

[SwampD]

Wait. So it's the roster?…

 

Interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

teehee