Neo Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 No no no. You don't trade those assets even if you won't compete for 2-3 years. You trade those assets and it forces guys from rochester up who are not ready.. You can't keep doing that. To weigh in, as Mr D responded to my post, i think Liger’s approach is closer to the one I envision. Trading today for tomorrow, hoping all the tomorrow’s hit at once, isn’t sustainable. I thought more around Liger’s approach when writing. Keep vets, today, improving player by player, season by season, always replacing a piece with a more appropriate one. Keep a framework in place while younger players develop. Create an identity. It’s slow, and we’ve waited so long. That’s the cost of quick fixes, as intoxicating as they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swedesessed Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If I were Jbot: 1. Can the Sabres get Kyle Okposo on track? Kyle had a rough year last year and so far is off to a slow start: Is there any way we can turn this 6M cap hit into at least a 50 point player. It's unrealistic IMO to think JBot can deal Okposo with that contract at this time. If KO can get back in track, MAYBE a deal can be made. 2. If Evander is traded, attach Bogosian back in a deal with another team: If JBot does this, it will bring down the return on EK, but it just might be worth it to clear Bogo's terrible 5.1M cap hit for 3 more seasons. 3. Sam Reinhart RFA next year: The Sabres need to find out what the heck they are gonna get out of Sam. Either move him, or play him with skilled players to see if Sam can return to the promise we saw early on. 4. Goaltending: A mess. I am thinking JBot had a vision to possibly move one of these goalies for a draft asset. Neither of these guys are a long term solution. Move on from both and look to the 2018 offseason to address this need. 5. Moulson: Another disaster that is hurting on and with the cap. Not sure there is a clear solution here at all. 6. Tell Eich to be Eich: I love his passion for the game and he wants to win. No more words, Just produce and elevate to the elite player we all know you can be. Leadership takes time to develop. He is 20. We don't need rah rah talk. Just be you and the leadership and results will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottysabres Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 If I were Jbot: 1. Can the Sabres get Kyle Okposo on track? Kyle had a rough year last year and so far is off to a slow start: Is there any way we can turn this 6M cap hit into at least a 50 point player. It's unrealistic IMO to think JBot can deal Okposo with that contract at this time. If KO can get back in track, MAYBE a deal can be made. 2. If Evander is traded, attach Bogosian back in a deal with another team: If JBot does this, it will bring down the return on EK, but it just might be worth it to clear Bogo's terrible 5.1M cap hit for 3 more seasons. 3. Sam Reinhart RFA next year: The Sabres need to find out what the heck they are gonna get out of Sam. Either move him, or play him with skilled players to see if Sam can return to the promise we saw early on. 4. Goaltending: A mess. I am thinking JBot had a vision to possibly move one of these goalies for a draft asset. Neither of these guys are a long term solution. Move on from both and look to the 2018 offseason to address this need. 5. Moulson: Another disaster that is hurting on and with the cap. Not sure there is a clear solution here at all. 6. Tell Eich to be Eich: I love his passion for the game and he wants to win. No more words, Just produce and elevate to the elite player we all know you can be. Leadership takes time to develop. He is 20. We don't need rah rah talk. Just be you and the leadership and results will come. Moulson and Bogo are real cap staggers for sure. Moulson I suspect is here until that contract runs out. Bogo, if this guy can just stay healthy. Has anyone investigated his portfolio? Is he medtech heavy? I think Okposo regains form. Had a scare, but he should rebound. Goaltending.........it is a problem, have nothing for a solution. Optimism abounds however......a lot of contracts ufa next year. The deadline this coming Feb? March? I don't expect this team to be sellers, I expect buyers. Playoffs baby!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Jones Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 So we should going into next season with our best winger being a 35 year old Jason Pominville with 1 year left on his deal. That's a recipe for success if I ever saw one! No the recipe is obviously pay everyone from last year's roster handsomely, I mean why mess with success? I think you have to clear off as much cap space as possible to be able to manage the team in the future when Mittlestadts or whoever (presuming some good JBot drafts) need money and to be able to sign a few mid priced FAs who fit the system. Too early for me to look at the UFA lists but I am sure JBot is. It really comes down to one question - do you think/trust Kane to be a consistent top goal scorer year in year out? If you do, you pay him, I don't so I wouldn't. I think Jack has elevated Kane and I think he can elevate some cheaper fast skating players just as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) No no no. You don't trade those assets even if you won't compete for 2-3 years. You trade those assets and it forces guys from rochester up who are not ready.. You can't keep doing that. This is a great point. Players need to be, (and I think are, now, with Botterill) developed properly. Timing can mean a lot, in terms of what roles prospects/young pros are pushed into, and how soon. Trade Kane when we can replace his goals Trade Lehner when we can replace his saves Etc Edited October 23, 2017 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 This is a great point. Players need to be, (and I think are, now, with Botterill) developed properly. Timing can mean a lot, in terms of what roles prospects/young pros are pushed into, and how soon. Trade Kane when we can replace his goals Trade Lehner when we can replace his saves Etc You may have to trade Kane even without his replacement being ready. You can't take a chance he walks for nothing, you may not even be able to afford him next season Did some quick math, with the guys signed already and assuming $5 mill for goaltending and $4 for Reinhart. Even if you pay $1million to fill out your roster, doesn't leave any $$ for Kane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 You may have to trade Kane even without his replacement being ready. You can't take a chance he walks for nothing, you may not even be able to afford him next season Did some quick math, with the guys signed already and assuming $5 mill for goaltending and $4 for Reinhart. Even if you pay $1million to fill out your roster, doesn't leave any $$ for Kane. It's not that trading him is a poor option, it's that Botterill should at least be attempting to negotiate an extension, first. I don't agree at all that there is no $ left for Kane. Also, if for some reason there is a real turnaround here, and they are in the playoff hunt, I wouldn't lightly break that very positive experience for these guys up by dealing Kane at the deadline, just to ensure we get a return. A run like that would be very valuable, early returns are good from the Leafs run last year, for example. If we are well out of it by the deadline, and Botterill doesn't think reasonable contract terms can be reached, by all means trade him then, with his value likely pretty decent at the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I don't think it's an agree or disagree topic. Unless you move a big contract of $5mill, there is no $$ for Kane. A buyout of moulson still sees over $3 million applied against the cap. Only solution I can think of is to waive him and pay him $5 million to play in Rochester. Anyone know the cap hit if he gets sent to minors ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted October 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 It's not that trading him is a poor option, it's that Botterill should at least be attempting to negotiate an extension, first. I don't agree at all that there is no $ left for Kane. Also, if for some reason there is a real turnaround here, and they are in the playoff hunt, I wouldn't lightly break that very positive experience for these guys up by dealing Kane at the deadline, just to ensure we get a return. A run like that would be very valuable, early returns are good from the Leafs run last year, for example. If we are well out of it by the deadline, and Botterill doesn't think reasonable contract terms can be reached, by all means trade him then, with his value likely pretty decent at the deadline. First things first, I have written a few times before on our cap numbers going forward. There is money to re-sign Kane. In fact there is probably enough money to keep two of Lehner, Reinhart and Kane, but I'm not this is wise. It gets easier if we can get our from under Moulson's contract and Bogo's deal. Bogo is actually easier. We can buy him out and save $4 mill each of the next 2 years. A Moulson buyout only saves 333K over sending him to the minors and because of the extra year doesn't make sense. The best we can hope for with Moulson is that somebody takes him on for his low salary and hi cap to get to the cap floor, but I consider this a long-shot. We can also trade and re-sign Kane in the off-season. No guarantees, but not out of the realm of possibility. Still I'm not investing 7 years in Kane. His injury history and spotty track record on the ice make it a risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) I don't think it's an agree or disagree topic. Unless you move a big contract of $5mill, there is no $$ for Kane. A buyout of moulson still sees over $3 million applied against the cap. Only solution I can think of is to waive him and pay him $5 million to play in Rochester. Anyone know the cap hit if he gets sent to minors ? You are right, it's not agree or disagree, as you've just agreed with me: that's it's certainly possible. If there weren't realistic options for getting him signed, no one would be wasting time arguing the merits of signing him/not signing him, lots of which has been taking place for months on this board, with great posts on both sides. First things first, I have written a few times before on our cap numbers going forward. There is money to re-sign Kane. In fact there is probably enough money to keep two of Lehner, Reinhart and Kane, but I'm not this is wise. It gets easier if we can get our from under Moulson's contract and Bogo's deal. Bogo is actually easier. We can buy him out and save $4 mill each of the next 2 years. A Moulson buyout only saves 333K over sending him to the minors and because of the extra year doesn't make sense. The best we can hope for with Moulson is that somebody takes him on for his low salary and hi cap to get to the cap floor, but I consider this a long-shot. We can also trade and re-sign Kane in the off-season. No guarantees, but not out of the realm of possibility. Still I'm not investing 7 years in Kane. His injury history and spotty track record on the ice make it a risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take. All fair. The idea here I agree with is that it is definitely possible, but not necessarily wise. That'll depend on what Kane demands from Botterill and it'll be Botterill's call. Edited October 24, 2017 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) First things first, I have written a few times before on our cap numbers going forward. There is money to re-sign Kane. In fact there is probably enough money to keep two of Lehner, Reinhart and Kane, but I'm not this is wise. It gets easier if we can get our from under Moulson's contract and Bogo's deal. Bogo is actually easier. We can buy him out and save $4 mill each of the next 2 years. A Moulson buyout only saves 333K over sending him to the minors and because of the extra year doesn't make sense. The best we can hope for with Moulson is that somebody takes him on for his low salary and hi cap to get to the cap floor, but I consider this a long-shot. We can also trade and re-sign Kane in the off-season. No guarantees, but not out of the realm of possibility. Still I'm not investing 7 years in Kane. His injury history and spotty track record on the ice make it a risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take. First things first, I have written a few times before on our cap numbers going forward. There is money to re-sign Kane. In fact there is probably enough money to keep two of Lehner, Reinhart and Kane, but I'm not this is wise. It gets easier if we can get our from under Moulson's contract and Bogo's deal. Bogo is actually easier. We can buy him out and save $4 mill each of the next 2 years. A Moulson buyout only saves 333K over sending him to the minors and because of the extra year doesn't make sense. The best we can hope for with Moulson is that somebody takes him on for his low salary and hi cap to get to the cap floor, but I consider this a long-shot. We can also trade and re-sign Kane in the off-season. No guarantees, but not out of the realm of possibility. Still I'm not investing 7 years in Kane. His injury history and spotty track record on the ice make it a risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take. You are right, Even though I love what he brings to the team and will hate to see him leave the Sabres in the prime of his career, he will be 27 by next season and the risk of a 7 year contract is much too great. With moulson, he is going to cost you over $3million on the cap no matter if you bury him in ahl or buy him out. PAINFUL contract The real solution is LTIR D for the final 2 years of his deal. Any cronic conditions he could suffer from? Edited October 24, 2017 by Crusader1969 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 You are right, Even though I love what he brings to the team and will hate to see him leave the Sabres in the prime of his career, he will be 27 by next season and the risk of a 7 year contract is much too great. With moulson, he is going to cost you over $3million on the cap no matter if you bury him in ahl or buy him out. PAINFUL contract The real solution is LTIR D for the final 2 years of his deal. Any cronic conditions he could suffer from? :huh: Why do you need Moulson on IR this season? Just trade him next year to Arizona. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 No one is trading for Moulson! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I wouldn't sleep on Rodrigues when he's back, he's got speed and chemistry with Jack, I can see him being a difference maker and moving some guys down to more appropriate spots, he's going to end up being our Rust or Sheary, book it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Jones Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Ya, I have hope for Rodrigues. He definitely has the wheels and it would be great if he could click with Jack. Lacked finish last year but fingers crossed he'll take a step up this year when he comes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I too am looking forward to seeing what ERod can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Kane's value is already set... if he hasn't signed then I don't suspect he will. This means they are going to move him. If his return lowers GA by the same amount of decreasing GF then I am probably pretty good with the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader1969 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 First things first, I have written a few times before on our cap numbers going forward. There is money to re-sign Kane. In fact there is probably enough money to keep two of Lehner, Reinhart and Kane, but I'm not this is wise. It gets easier if we can get our from under Moulson's contract and Bogo's deal. Bogo is actually easier. We can buy him out and save $4 mill each of the next 2 years. A Moulson buyout only saves 333K over sending him to the minors and because of the extra year doesn't make sense. The best we can hope for with Moulson is that somebody takes him on for his low salary and hi cap to get to the cap floor, but I consider this a long-shot. We can also trade and re-sign Kane in the off-season. No guarantees, but not out of the realm of possibility. Still I'm not investing 7 years in Kane. His injury history and spotty track record on the ice make it a risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take. do you have a copy of your work you could post here? or tell me where I could find it? Would you agree that if they keep Bogo and Reinhart, there is no money left for Kane? otherwise Im doing some wrong math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre fan Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 I don't think it's an agree or disagree topic. Unless you move a big contract of $5mill, there is no $$ for Kane. A buyout of moulson still sees over $3 million applied against the cap. Only solution I can think of is to waive him and pay him $5 million to play in Rochester. Anyone know the cap hit if he gets sent to minors ? done some research and apparently if Moulson cleared waivers (as he would of course) then we could send him to the AHL and his salary would NOT count against the Sabres' cap...freeing up his salary alone would enable Kane to be signed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 done some research and apparently if Moulson cleared waivers (as he would of course) then we could send him to the AHL and his salary would NOT count against the Sabres' cap...freeing up his salary alone would enable Kane to be signed His salary would count against the cap even if he cleared waivers and played in the AHL though. All of it except about $1 million which would be eaten up by his replacement anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabel79 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 done some research and apparently if Moulson cleared waivers (as he would of course) then we could send him to the AHL and his salary would NOT count against the Sabres' cap...freeing up his salary alone would enable Kane to be signed Nope. You only get the minimum league salary + $375,000 off the cap for a one-way deal. (Slightly under a million this season) His salary would count against the cap even if he cleared waivers and played in the AHL though. All of it except about $1 million which would be eaten up by his replacement anyway. Jinx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Collection Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 done some research and apparently if Moulson cleared waivers (as he would of course) then we could send him to the AHL and his salary would NOT count against the Sabres' cap...freeing up his salary alone would enable Kane to be signed He could come down with Lupulitis and go on LTIR. The look on his face is of pain after every shift, maybe it's because of the realization that he can't compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) He could come down with Lupulitis and go on LTIR. The look on his face is of pain after every shift, maybe it's because of the realization that he can't compete. Douse him with itching powder and let him claim whatever skin disorder Hossa used so Chicago could circumvent the cap. Edited October 24, 2017 by Drunkard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted October 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Crusader here are the numbers Forwards (7) 37.175 - Jack, RoR, Ko, Moulson, Girgensons, Larsson and Pommers. ERod also has another year at .650. Nylander is signed for .894 and Bailey is going to be a cheap RFA to retain (around 750k). Defense (6) 19.2 - Risto, Bogo, Scandella, Baloo, McCabe and Tennyson. Guhle is also under contract for .697. Antipin is a RFA. Goalie (1) .750 - Ullmark All told that’s 14 players of a 22-23 man roster for 57.125. That leaves about 20 mill for 8-9 players. While that doesn’t sound like much it should be ample to sign who we need. If you assume that ERod, Bailey and Nylander make the Sabres next year, you now have 10 forwards for 39.47 and 17 players for $59.42. If Guhle makes the team that brings us to 7 D and 18 players for $60.12. So is 17 mill enough to keep Kane, Sam and Lehner? Yeah! Will Jbot keep all three? I doubt it. I think he gives Sam a 3 year 13 mil bridge deal. That would bring us to 11 forwards, and 19 players for $64.55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7+6=13 Posted October 24, 2017 Report Share Posted October 24, 2017 Hockey players are a different breed of athletes. Do you guys/gals think Moulson feels funny about being a financial liability to the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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