WTF is wrong with this team?

[Randall Flagg]

nfreeman, you were right about the phaneuf trade. I think I am thinking of the Clarkson deal. 

 

[Thorny]

Babcock and better players with better picks and moves.

Ouch?

[Pokey Jones]

Well they tanked the right way, but they also won the lottery. 

 

So here's the question to ponder, if we'd won that lottery would we be a playoff team OR would Eichel be tearing up the league in Edmonton?

[Randall Flagg]

Even though I believe that Toronto tanked and that their tank was a success I will not be okay with this franchise ever doing it again. 

[Pokey Jones]

But if you rid yourself of a bunch of slacker veterans who quit on you are you "tanking" or actually trying to change and get better, even if the immediate result might be a losing season? 

[bunomatic]

But if you rid yourself of a bunch of slacker veterans who quit on you are you "tanking" or actually trying to change and get better, even if the immediate result might be a losing season? 

This is where I'm at. Whats wrong with unloading crap to get better in the long run.

[Randall Flagg]

But if you rid yourself of a bunch of slacker veterans who quit on you are you "tanking" or actually trying to change and get better, even if the immediate result might be a losing season? 

I agree that there's a distinction, but I think what the Sabres did went well above and beyond that distinction. 

[nfreeman]

But by your logic, they should have kept Kessel, Dion et al and brought up Nylander, and kept Marner all season. Win at all costs right? Then they would have been the same team that was irrelevant for a decade plus. The only difference between us and them is they landed Babcock and we didn’t. He accelerated their rise exponentially.

 

No.  Being anti-tank doesn't mean you keep your aging/overrated top guys at all costs.  You can trade to get younger, rebuild, etc.  But there is a world of difference between doing that and doing what the Sabres did.

 

The Sabres embraced losing for 2 years because they (and many here) thought it would be a simple matter of snagging Eichel and then flipping the switch back to winning. 

 

It doesn't work like that, unless you end up with someone transformative like Crosby or McD -- i.e. a true once-in-20-years guy.  Most of the time the team ends up stinking for a long time.

 

 

Babcock and better players with better picks and moves.

 

And this is what we're all scared to think:

 

What if Matthews is better than Eichel, Marner is better than Reino, Nylander is better than Nylander, Risto is OK but not a #1 and ROR and KO are just overpaid losers?

 

 

Well they tanked the right way, but they also won the lottery. 

 

So here's the question to ponder, if we'd won that lottery would we be a playoff team OR would Eichel be tearing up the league in Edmonton?

 

Excellent question.

[Randall Flagg]

 

And this is what we're all scared to think:

 

What if Matthews is better than Eichel, Marner is better than Reino, Nylander is better than Nylander, Risto is OK but not a #1 and ROR and KO are just overpaid losers?

 

At this rate, it would be nearly impossible to convince me that:

Eichel is better than Matthews right now

Reinhart is better than Marner or Nylander right now

Nylander is on the same planet as Marner or Nylander right now

ROR is better than Kadri right now

Now, I'd take Kane and Okposo over JVR and Bozak by a hair, but when your first comparison victory occurs at that level, you see the gap between the teams that we've seen for the last 85 games. 

 

Then you have their successful AHL guy that scored 20 in his rookie year, Brown, and our kids that all failed to even make the team over guys like Griffith and Nolan. And Kapanen, perhaps the best skater in their organization, about to join the team. 

 

Defensively, I like Risto as much as Rielly or Gardiner, but I don't like anyone else we have as much as Rielly or Gardiner. 

[mjd1001]

At this rate, it would be nearly impossible to convince me that:

Eichel is better than Matthews right now

Reinhart is better than Marner or Nylander right now

Nylander is on the same planet as Marner or Nylander right now

ROR is better than Kadri right now

Now, I'd take Kane and Okposo over JVR and Bozak by a hair, but when your first comparison victory occurs at that level, you see the gap between the teams that we've seen for the last 85 games. 

 

Then you have their successful AHL guy that scored 20 in his rookie year, Brown, and our kids that all failed to even make the team over guys like Griffith and Nolan. And Kapanen, perhaps the best skater in their organization, about to join the team. 

 

Defensively, I like Risto as much as Rielly or Gardiner, but I don't like anyone else we have as much as Rielly or Gardiner. 

I'd like to think Eichel is better than Matthews right now, but Matthews puts in a lot of goals.

 

Reinhart seesm to have regressed the last half season. I know he put up more points last year, but he put up less goals and is less noticable on the ice.

 

I am becoming more and more convinced that something is seriously wrong with ROR, or he just can't keep up with the game.  Its not just a game or two..but in the past 2 years, he had a good/great world cup playing for Canada, but he hasn't been good for the Sabres (good maybe but not even very good).  Everyone just seem to accept he is good/great because he is Ryan O'Rielly, but with my eyes I see a $7.5 million dollar player that doesn't have the ability to take over games and makes a FEW big mistakes a game, that often lead to goals for the other team.

[Randall Flagg]

I'd like to think Eichel is better than Matthews right now, but Matthews puts in a lot of goals.

 

Reinhart seesm to have regressed the last half season. I know he put up more points last year, but he put up less goals and is less noticable on the ice.

 

I am becoming more and more convinced that something is seriously wrong with ROR, or he just can't keep up with the game.  Its not just a game or two..but in the past 2 years, he had a good/great world cup playing for Canada, but he hasn't been good for the Sabres (good maybe but not even very good).  Everyone just seem to accept he is good/great because he is Ryan O'Rielly, but with my eyes I see a $7.5 million dollar player that doesn't have the ability to take over games and makes a FEW big mistakes a game, that often lead to goals for the other team.

I do think ROR's 15-16 season was excellent for us, he had 60 points in 70 games or something like it and every shift was a monster. That's why what we see now is so stark, we have something great to compare it to and he's been a shadow of that player. Very concerning.

[LTS]

I'm far more interested in how far the hyperbole can possibly get before game 4 starts than why we had a bumpy road through the last six periods of hockey

 

You want me to stretch it like Mama Cass in yoga pants?

 

No.  Being anti-tank doesn't mean you keep your aging/overrated top guys at all costs.  You can trade to get younger, rebuild, etc.  But there is a world of difference between doing that and doing what the Sabres did.

 

The Sabres embraced losing for 2 years because they (and many here) thought it would be a simple matter of snagging Eichel and then flipping the switch back to winning. 

 

It doesn't work like that, unless you end up with someone transformative like Crosby or McD -- i.e. a true once-in-20-years guy.  Most of the time the team ends up stinking for a long time.

 

 

 

And this is what we're all scared to think:

 

What if Matthews is better than Eichel, Marner is better than Reino, Nylander is better than Nylander, Risto is OK but not a #1 and ROR and KO are just overpaid losers?

 

 

 

Excellent question.

 

Then you should resign as a moderator here to preserve your sanity.  :)

[ubkev]

And this is what we're all scared to think:

 

What if Matthews is better than Eichel, Marner is better than Reino, Nylander is better than Nylander, Risto is OK but not a #1 and ROR and KO are just overpaid losers?

 

I'm not scared to think it. I think it. Not exactly it, but pretty close to it. Matthews is better, Marner is better and Nylander is better. I'm on record earlier this summer as saying we're going to regret Okposo's contract in less than 2 years. ROR has never "wow'd" me. I really have no idea about Risto.

 

Jack is an excellent player. Sam is good, maybe very good. Nylander does nothing for me. KO will age a thousand years by the end of next year and ROR clearly isn't a killer. Hockey teams need killers.

[Thorny]

At this rate, it would be nearly impossible to convince me that:

Eichel is better than Matthews right now

Reinhart is better than Marner or Nylander right now

Nylander is on the same planet as Marner or Nylander right now

ROR is better than Kadri right now

 

Now, I'd take Kane and Okposo over JVR and Bozak by a hair, but when your first comparison victory occurs at that level, you see the gap between the teams that we've seen for the last 85 games. 

 

Then you have their successful AHL guy that scored 20 in his rookie year, Brown, and our kids that all failed to even make the team over guys like Griffith and Nolan. And Kapanen, perhaps the best skater in their organization, about to join the team. 

Defensively, I like Risto as much as Rielly or Gardiner, but I don't like anyone else we have as much as Rielly or Gardiner.

 

Yup.

 

I do think ROR's 15-16 season was excellent for us, he had 60 points in 70 games or something like it and every shift was a monster. That's why what we see now is so stark, we have something great to compare it to and he's been a shadow of that player. Very concerning.

Yuuuup.

[Pokey Jones]

Yes, you can't just look back and blame the tank. We were not good before the tank. We have simply drafted poorly for years and now it shows. So no, nobody wants to tank again on purpose, but if you don't get rid of the crap and the quitters and change the culture, then you'll never get out of this. 

 

We simply have to accept that the last rebuild was crap and we need to start over and try it again. Get it right this time. Tweaks and half measures won't get us there. 

[North Buffalo]

Nashville opened up last year 3-5-3 in their first eleven games... then proceeded to get to even, but even then struggled to maintain 500... through December....  And the Sabres imo, don't have as much talent...  Gonna take a little time for Bots and Wowie to make this work...  Step back from the cliff.  The D will be better especially once Bogosian gets back.  That being said, they have a long way to go and again put the knives down... 

 

Still see the Sabres lacking in scorers.  But chemistry is gonna take awhile.  Again, it is a 200 foot game Housley preaches and some of these guys are just not use to it.  I hope he is making them run wind sprints in practice... at some point they will get their lungs, but it appears the lack serious stamina other than Kane and maybe the practices are wearing them out right now... it will pay dividends once they get their sea legs... 

[Radar]

I totally agree on the role model part and have told my kids as much. I think there ARE plenty of kids out there who idolize these guys though. So far, I have had an ex Board of Director from the Sabres email me back as well as a VP within Pegula Sports. My frustration is gone after saying what I needed to say so we'll see how they go from here.

Glad you heard something back and pleasantly surprised.

[Marions Piazza]

Nashville opened up last year 3-5-3 in their first eleven games... then proceeded to get to even, but even then struggled to maintain 500... through December....  And the Sabres imo, don't have as much talent...  Gonna take a little time for Bots and Wowie to make this work...  Step back from the cliff.  The D will be better especially once Bogosian gets back.  That being said, they have a long way to go and again put the knives down... 

 

Still see the Sabres lacking in scorers.  But chemistry is gonna take awhile.  Again, it is a 200 foot game Housley preaches and some of these guys are just not use to it.  I hope he is making them run wind sprints in practice... at some point they will get their lungs, but it appears the lack serious stamina other than Kane and maybe the practices are wearing them out right now... it will pay dividends once they get their sea legs... 

Absolutely, I was doom and gloom after that sh!tshow on Monday, but, I gave it some more thought.  What more could we have done against Montreal?  We pounded Price with over 40 shots, he's the best goalie in the world.  There could've been some better effort here and there, but on the whole, the game against the Habs was pretty solid.  Obviously we came out flat against the Isles, but we fought back, Eichel made it 5-3 and then we had a goal taken away on what looked like it got over the line and shouldv'e been 5-4 with over a minute remaining with a chance to tie it.  Instead, the goal was disallowed and NY ended up with an empty netter to make it 6-3.  There obviously needed to be better effort the whole game, but its not like they were awful for 60 minutes.  Devils game, yikes, just bad all around.  That being said, that is not the norm whatsoever, there's no way they are that bad.  

 

I may be back on the cliff after the road trip if we only get 2 points out of the possible 8.  we shall see

[PASabreFan]

We go through this every year, it seems. People want to wait until the holidays to see what we have. Why wait? Is three games a reliable predictor of how a season is going to go? Probably not, but I wouldn't wait much longer than the end of the first month.

 

Eventual Cup winners don't get off to slow starts. See below. Of course that's not the standard we're holding the Sabres to. But I wasn't about to look at the early records of every playoff team since 2005-2006. I'm not that crazy.

 

But I bet it would show that teams that start slow and make a big successful playoff push are few and far between. 1/6 of a season seems about right. The Sabres' start is ominous, but there's time to turn it around. Not as much time as people think, IMHO, though...

 

2006 Carolina 1-2-0 / 8-2-1

2007 Anaheim 3-0-0 / 9-0-3

2008 Detroit 2-0-1 / 10-2-1

2009 Pittsburgh 1-1-1 / 5-4-2

2010 Chicago 1-1-1 / 8-4-1

2011 Boston 2-1-0 / 6-2-0

2012 LA 1-1-1 / 6-3-2

2013 Chicago 3-0-0 / 6-0-1

2014 LA 1-2-0 / 9-5-0

2015 Chicago 2-0-1 / 6-3-1

2016 Pittsburgh 0-3-0 / 7-4-0

2017 Pittsburgh 2-0-1 / 6-2-1

[freester]

 

 

And this is what we're all scared to think:

 

What if Matthews is better than Eichel, Marner is better than Reino, Nylander is better than Nylander, Risto is OK but not a #1 and ROR and KO are just overpaid losers?

 

 

 

Excellent question.

Babcock is clearly better than Housley and Morgan Reily is better than Risto.  Sam Reinhart is a poor mans Tim Connolly.( Tim was 5th pick overall) We are not in the same league as the leafs.  Our 2nd best player is a free agent after this year and may not resign.  It is not a pretty picture.  We are a very wimpy team except for Kane and Nolan.  Kane will likely be gone and Nolan shouldn't be on the ice

[Huckleberry]

I think this west coast trip is just what the team needs.  they always did well on those and came back better for it.

[StuckinFL]

We go through this every year, it seems. People want to wait until the holidays to see what we have. Why wait? Is three games a reliable predictor of how a season is going to go? Probably not, but I wouldn't wait much longer than the end of the first month.

 

Eventual Cup winners don't get off to slow starts. See below. Of course that's not the standard we're holding the Sabres to. But I wasn't about to look at the early records of every playoff team since 2005-2006. I'm not that crazy.

 

But I bet it would show that teams that start slow and make a big successful playoff push are few and far between. 1/6 of a season seems about right. The Sabres' start is ominous, but there's time to turn it around. Not as much time as people think, IMHO, though...

 

2006 Carolina 1-2-0 / 8-2-1

 

2007 Anaheim 3-0-0 / 9-0-3

 

2008 Detroit 2-0-1 / 10-2-1

 

2009 Pittsburgh 1-1-1 / 5-4-2

 

2010 Chicago 1-1-1 / 8-4-1

 

2011 Boston 2-1-0 / 6-2-0

 

2012 LA 1-1-1 / 6-3-2

 

2013 Chicago 3-0-0 / 6-0-1

 

2014 LA 1-2-0 / 9-5-0

 

2015 Chicago 2-0-1 / 6-3-1

 

2016 Pittsburgh 0-3-0 / 7-4-0

 

2017 Pittsburgh 2-0-1 / 6-2-1

Waiting for the inevitable excuses of us not being cup contenders yet, new system, good teams have had bad starts, blah, blah, blah...

 

Because you're not allowed to be upset if your team comes out and looks like an AHL squad at best. Not allowed to be upset when your vets look like they are showing no effort. This fan base has been abused and taken advantage of so long that they make constant excuses for it like some domestic abuse victim that refuses to leave.

 

He only hit you cause he loves you, right?

[LTS]

Waiting for the inevitable excuses of us not being cup contenders yet, new system, good teams have had bad starts, blah, blah, blah...

 

Because you're not allowed to be upset if your team comes out and looks like an AHL squad at best. Not allowed to be upset when your vets look like they are showing no effort. This fan base has been abused and taken advantage of so long that they make constant excuses for it like some domestic abuse victim that refuses to leave.

 

He only hit you cause he loves you, right?

 

Not even remotely the same thing.

 

Onto a more intelligent discussion. 

 

If you don't like what the Sabres are doing, then fine, you don't.  If you don't like the team, then fine you don't.  Everyone is at different levels of tolerances and some people just won't ever get that upset over the Sabres product on the ice because for them it's a form of entertainment even if its not entertaining at some times.

 

What has happened lately on this forum is that people who are upset seem to want to call out those are not and make them lesser people.  You are comparing them to domestic abuse victims which is an absolutely disgusting comparison.  Others are yelling at them wasting their money, their time, etc. 

 

Seriously, why do people feel the need to spread their misery?  Perhaps we need a thread called "Eternal Sabres Hell: A Thread for Miserable Fans and Trolls".

[Doohickie]

Not even remotely the same thing.

 

Onto a more intelligent discussion. 

 

If you don't like what the Sabres are doing, then fine, you don't.  If you don't like the team, then fine you don't.  Everyone is at different levels of tolerances and some people just won't ever get that upset over the Sabres product on the ice because for them it's a form of entertainment even if its not entertaining at some times.

 

What has happened lately on this forum is that people who are upset seem to want to call out those are not and make them lesser people.  You are comparing them to domestic abuse victims which is an absolutely disgusting comparison.  Others are yelling at them wasting their money, their time, etc. 

 

Seriously, why do people feel the need to spread their misery?  Perhaps we need a thread called "Eternal Sabres Hell: A Thread for Miserable Fans and Trolls".

 

Oh, you mean the people wasting their time on this forum are accusing the fans of wasting their time?  How does that work?

[Weave]

We saw the same thing here when the tank started. From both sides.

 

Same as it ever was....

 

I'm wondering if there is too much emphasis on skill with this squad. I'm not looking for Adam Mairs to be acquired, but there is something missing.