What do you think of Tim Murray?

[Hoss]

And if he says no, you'll just take him, right?

Yes, but I'd make sure he has phone access in our love cave.

[Randall Flagg]

I absolutely love the interviews he gives. I almost never listen to coach and player interviews, but I've never missed a Murray press conference.

 

I'm skeptical of his defensive view, but ready and hoping to be proven wrong. ROR was a knock out of the park that I have a hard time seeing most GMs doing. I want 93 points and playoffs this year.

 

He's easily passed my first few tests, perhaps not with the highest possible grade, but the big one is now.

[WildCard]

Yes, but I'd make sure he has phone access in our love cave.

Big difference between dungeon and cave. I know what it is, he shows me around when we're on chat roulette

[pi2000]

Anybody can take one the worst teams in NHL history and make them noticeably better.     

 

The hard part is going from playoff team to Cup contender.    We're not even a playoff team yet.  

[Claude_Verret]

Anybody can take one the worst teams in NHL history and make them noticeably better.     

 

The hard part is going from playoff team to Cup contender.    We're not even a playoff team yet.  

 

 

Maybe, but not many have the ZFG attitude to unapologetically tank for two full seasons.  Although I don't believe GMTM or anyone else had much of a choice to continue what DR started, he still did a masterful job of steering the tank to success.

 

Things appear to be on course right now, but I agree with others that nothing has been accomplished until we get to the playoffs and continue to progress to legit Cup contender

[Eleven]

Maybe, but not many have the ZFG attitude to unapologetically tank for two full seasons.  Although I don't believe GMTM or anyone else had much of a choice to continue what DR started, he still did a masterful job of steering the tank to success.

 

Things appear to be on course right now, but I agree with others that nothing has been accomplished until we get to the playoffs and continue to progress to legit Cup contender

 

Plenty of teams in plenty of sports have gone through teardowns and rebuilds.

[Claude_Verret]

Plenty of teams in plenty of sports have gone through teardowns and rebuilds.

 

Yes, but few have done it in such a no holds barred way as the Buffalo Sabres did from 2013 to 2015.  Nothing was left to chance.

[Norcal]

I like him and I think the team is heading in the right direction.

[Thorny]

It is exactly this meme he overpays that I am trying to address here.

Look at the assets he has given up and what he has got in return.

If he generally overpays, how did our team get so much better?

Without killing our cap or sacrificing the future?

Seems to me people miss the forest for the trees on that one.

I agree completely with the bolded. A couple trades where we gave quantity for quality and the uproar began. Granted, the Kane trade doesn't look great right now. But you aren't going to win every trade and to expect that would be folly. Plenty of other great value trades, notably, of course, the ROR deal. We acquired a first line all-around selke-level centre in a trade. That's not easy to do.

 

I'll echo others in saying that none of the real goals have been accomplished yet, and that we have to see how things unfold. But all of his checkpoint times look pretty good to me, so far.

 

I look at what we got for the futures we traded away and am not that impressed.  Those 1sts, even the late ones, were the key to making sure the tank was worth it.  There would be no consternation over Vesey, if Boeser, White and Roslovic were in the fold.  I am not a Lehner fan and think he is a placeholder for Peterson. Thus giving away a first for that was a high price.  Adding the first in the Kane trade was an overpay imho.  The comment about coveting is where I stand.  

 

The trade for ROR was genius.  I don't think he overpaid because he knew the biggest part of the deal was the Sabres ability and willingness to sign him to the deal they did.  Not many partners.

 

I think the overhaul has been generally good, but we are still a fringe playoff team with holes on d and in net.  We won't be drafting in the top 5 or 10 likely anytime soon as we are no longer doormats.  So this is where we wait and see if the near ready assets develop and take us over the top.

 

I applaud his aggressive approach.  I give him a B+ to date.  I look at some of the other teams core, i.e. Jets, Flames, Oilers, TB and wonder if we got as much out of our rebuild to put us clearly out in front.  Time will tell, but it will be more enjoyable to watch as early as this season.

 

There isn't very much consternation over Vesey (in regards to what we gave up, at least) as things currently stand, due to us having a very solid prospect pool, even while having great young potential already on the roster full time. Adding Colin White or Jack Roslovic isn't altering our outlook in any significant way.

 

A quick point about the Jets, they appear to be taking the "build from the outside, in" approach, which as we all know doesn't usually work. They have Scheifele, then almost nothing in their centre prospect pool. Their wings are absolutely stacked, but I don't know how much success they'll have with the centre depth currently existing out west, on other teams.

 

As Charles Emerson Winchester III used to say... "Gentlemen..."

 

I'm not going to crown his ass. I like him well enough, but the cult of personality that is growing around him is annoying.

Very timely reference. RIP Dennis Green.

 

I absolutely love the interviews he gives. I almost never listen to coach and player interviews, but I've never missed a Murray press conference.

I'm skeptical of his defensive view, but ready and hoping to be proven wrong. ROR was a knock out of the park that I have a hard time seeing most GMs doing. I want 93 points and playoffs this year.

He's easily passed my first few tests, perhaps not with the highest possible grade, but the big one is now.

I'll take 95 points regardless of if we reach the playoffs or not. As long as the improvement is there, the other variables can fall where they may.

[French Collection]

I like Tim.

 

No beating around the bush.

Interesting interviews, says things I've never heard GM's say.

Passionate about hockey and scouting.

Strong work ethic, could be due to a farming family background.

 

Needs more time to be judged, body of work of 5 years is probably enough.

[JJFIVEOH]

I like the forwards and the D is shaping up although it needs more in the top end. TM has really taken a gamble on Lehner and I don't see a good backup when he gets injured, although I have high hopes in Cal Peterson.       TM overpays on trades or free-agents he covets but those guys are available for a reason. I don't like long-term contracts unless the player is a cornerstone.

 

Despite all this, he remains The Most Interesting Man in the World.

 

This is where I'm at. I'm a fan, so far. But I'm very disappointed and nervous at the way he's treated the goaltending situation. Not Lehner, but Plan B.

I really don't want this season riding on Nilsson's shoulders should something happen to Lehner. Nilsson could be really good, but he's unproven. 

[inkman]

This is where I'm at. I'm a fan, so far. But I'm very disappointed and nervous at the way he's treated the goaltending situation. Not Lehner, but Plan B.

 

I really don't want this season riding on Nilsson's shoulders should something happen to Lehner. Nilsson could be really good, but he's unproven.

Can we wait until the backup has played one game for the Sabres before casting aspersions?

[PotentPowerPlay22]

I was reading some harsh criticism of Tim Murray earlier today on the internet.

Some random poster going off that he's been a terrible GM who was gifted Sam and Jack and has largely squandered the full bag of assets he was handed.

 

Darcy Regier taught me that its not whether you win the trades that's important, it's the team that you build.

Ink reminds me three or four times a year that prospects are nice, but they mean ###### on game night.

 

With that in mind let's weigh the NHL players Murray has acquired overall versus the ones he has moved or let walk. This list doesn't include players that were acquired then moved or let go like Chad Johnson, guys no longer in the NHL like Linus Omark, prospects who have yet to arrive like Will Carrier or JT Compher, or picks.

 

Just real live NHL players, in rough order of current NHL usefulness (and a new coach):

 

IN (Bylsma)

O'Reilly, Eichel, Okposo, Reinhart, Kane, Bogosian, Kulikov, Lehner, Gionta, Gorges, Franson, Deslauriers, Moulson, Nilsson

 

OUT (Nolan)

Myers, Stafford, Pysyk, McNabb, Miller, Grigorenko, Zadorov, Enroth, Ott, Ehrhoff, Weber, Flynn, McBain

 

Are you kidding me? Unless you think Miller is better than Lehner, he's given up one guy (Myers) who would currently be in the top half of our lineup and acquired eight.

 

A Murray hater would probably come back with "yeah, but he gave up too many futures."

Same drill with acquired and traded prospects, including net gains or losses on picks over his tenure:

 

IN

Fasching, Asplund, Carrier, Nelson, Rodrigues, Kasdorf, two 3rds, 5th, 7th

 

OUT

Compher, Lemieux, Armia, 1st, 2nd, 4th

 

The tradeoff is probably a net loss at the moment, but not a significant one. And it will turn into a net win if he signs Vesey.

 

For those worried about a dry pipeline, he's made 25 picks in his three drafts, 12 of them in the first three rounds and traded away just one of the prospects selected, Brendan Lemieux.

 

It seems to me he's improved the NHL roster drastically while safely managing the pool of futures.

 

More to the point, he's improved the team 29 points in two years.

The hardest part is still to come, but I can't understand how anyone looking at the big picture could not be happy with what Tim has done so far.

 

What have I missed?

Wait a few years and then re-evaluate.

 

It is too early to tell how players like JT Compher, Joel Armia, Brendan Lemieux and Hudson Fasching will develop.

 

Personally, I think he gave up too much on almost every trade, but it was easy dealing away stockpiled assets he didn't accumulate himself. The real test for Murray is how he deals with an empty cupboard that he himself emptied.

[pi2000]

Wait a few years and then re-evaluate.

 

It is too early to tell how players like JT Compher, Joel Armia, Brendan Lemieux and Hudson Fasching will develop.

 

Personally, I think he gave up too much on almost every trade, but it was easy dealing away stockpiled assets he didn't accumulate himself. The real test for Murray is how he deals with an empty cupboard that he himself emptied.

I think the real teat is how he manages the salary cap with guys like Eichel and Reinhart. Can he make the right moves to take this team from playoff regylar to Cup contender year after year.

 

That said I like the bold moves, he's aggressive but will he know when to back off and just build on existing assets?

[Charlemagne]

This is where I'm at. I'm a fan, so far. But I'm very disappointed and nervous at the way he's treated the goaltending situation. Not Lehner, but Plan B.

 

 

I really don't want this season riding on Nilsson's shoulders should something happen to Lehner. Nilsson could be really good, but he's unproven.

If/when Lehner gets injured (I'm not sold on his long term viability from a health standpoint) keep an eye out for Ullmark. If robin goes down its likely Linus comes up and beats out Nilsson for the replacement job. He's a capable NHL backup today but giving him a chance to start every night in ROC could allow him to develop into more.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I am a fan so far.

 

If I had to evaluate his bigger trades.

 

The Bad: I thought he overpaid for Lehner (a 1st plus taking on Legwand's contract was much to much) and I don't like the Fasching trade (although I like Fasching).  Giving up 2 2nds and McNabb for Fasching and Deslauriers was a huge overpayment.  That said is Lehner can solidify the No. 1 job and Fasching becomes a NHL regular for the Sabres, no is going to complain to loudly.

 

The Good: ROR trade.  Will anyone even remember in a year or two what we gave up for him if he continues to produce like last year?  Also McGinn really gave this team a lift.  Also Moulson & McCormick to Minnesota for 2014 2nd (Eric Cornel after another deal) and 2016 2nd which was traded to Montreal for Gorges.  Both guys returned to Buffalo and we got a solid D who has helped Risto develop and a solid prospect in Cornel. 

 

The Jury is still out:  

Myers/Stafford etc for Kane/Bogo.  Kane's antics off the ice are making this trade look terrible, but Bogo turned it on at the end of last season last season and if plays like that next season, I'll feel much better about the deal.  Armia isn't a NHL player so is no loss, Lemieux didn't want to play here.  Myers is still Myers and I don't miss him.  Only the 1st rd picks looks of real value.  

Pysyk for Kulikov and essentially Asplund.  I understand this deal, but the value of it depends on how Kulikov players and how Asplund develops.  I think this deal was partially made to avoid losing Pysyk in the expansion draft as Kulikov is an UFA at season's end.

 

Free Agents- Frankly the record isn't great

The Good:  Okposo? We'll see how he gels with Eichel or ROR, but I love the signing.

The Bad:  Moulson - production has plummeted; McCormick - IR; Meszaros - was awful; Franson - simply stunk

 

The Draft - I honestly am impressed so far.  I follow the prospects closely and like what I have seen from GMTM picks so far.  Every GM will have duds, but I tend to judge a GM on his hit % of his 1st rd picks, whether he gets 2 or more NHL players per draft and if he keeps the prospect pool full at all positions.  So far so good at all of these catagories.  We actually have 40 prospects in the system with 20 or so that I think have legit shots at the NHL.  I've been impressed with the development of some later round guys like Estephan.  I also like how it seems the key prospects, like Bailey and Cornel have really improved their games after coming under GMTM and his staff's guidance. However after only 3 drafts it very early to grade the job he has done here.

 

The Great - Eichel and Reinhart; Ok those were easy

Looking good: Nylander, Guhle, Borgen, Estephan, and Cornel

Ones to Watch: Asplund, Pu, Stephens and Olofsson

 

Overall I like GMTM's no nonsense approach and willingness to fail.  I'd rather the GM try and fail then be Darcy Regier.  Ultimately the proof will be if this team continues to develop.  However on paper this team has more forward depth then I can ever remember coupled with a balanced D and what could be good goaltending.  I think we can compare this rebuild to the mess in Edm and see that tanking doesn't always work.  You need competent management to build a team and it's pretty clear we have that.

Edited July 30, 2016 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Wait a few years and then re-evaluate.

 

It is too early to tell how players like JT Compher, Joel Armia, Brendan Lemieux and Hudson Fasching will develop.

 

Personally, I think he gave up too much on almost every trade, but it was easy dealing away stockpiled assets he didn't accumulate himself. The real test for Murray is how he deals with an empty cupboard that he himself emptied.

But is the cupboard empty? The facts don't back that up.

We've had three firsts, five seconds and four thirds in the past three drafts, 25 picks overall. We have an extra second and third stashed away already for next year. Three of our best NHL players are 21 and under, four of our starting six defencemen our starting goalie and our future captain are 25 and under. We aggressively pursue college UFAs.

Our cupboard seems pretty full to me.

Edited July 30, 2016 by dudacek

[Two or less]

This is where I'm at. I'm a fan, so far. But I'm very disappointed and nervous at the way he's treated the goaltending situation. Not Lehner, but Plan B.

I really don't want this season riding on Nilsson's shoulders should something happen to Lehner. Nilsson could be really good, but he's unproven. 

 

If Lehner gets injured, i think it's fair to assume that Linus Ullmark would have a fair chance to be the teams #1 goaltender. Maybe he'll be our Matt Murray?

 

Or, maybe they go the route Martin Biron suggested on WGR, and try to trade for someone, such as Ben Bishop?

[JJFIVEOH]

Can we wait until the backup has played one game for the Sabres before casting aspersions?

 

 

If/when Lehner gets injured (I'm not sold on his long term viability from a health standpoint) keep an eye out for Ullmark. If robin goes down its likely Linus comes up and beats out Nilsson for the replacement job. He's a capable NHL backup today but giving him a chance to start every night in ROC could allow him to develop into more.

 

 

If Lehner gets injured, i think it's fair to assume that Linus Ullmark would have a fair chance to be the teams #1 goaltender. Maybe he'll be our Matt Murray?

 

Or, maybe they go the route Martin Biron suggested on WGR, and try to trade for someone, such as Ben Bishop?

 

All fair points. I'm just not comfortable with Nilsson and/or Ullmark taking over just yet if Lehner goes down. But, there's only one way to find out if they're up to the task. 

[nfreeman]

Good stuff yse and welcome!

[PASabreFan]

Overall I like GMTM's no nonsense approach and willingness to fail.  I'd rather the GM try and fail then be Darcy Regier.

You mean the guy who guided the Sabres to one Cup final, four conference finals, a Presidents' Trophy and a division title as recently as 2010 — and easily could have won two Cups in his tenure? I certainly wanted Regier gone for the same reason I wanted Ruff gone. It was time. But if at this point early in Tim's career as a GM you are suggesting he is a better GM than Darcy, I disagree. Results have to matter. This is my concern. Regier is a bum because why? His good teams didn't win it all? Things came apart at the end because his core didn't come through? Meanwhile, all GMTM has to do is squeak his team into the playoffs and he's Lou Lamoriello?

Edited July 30, 2016 by PASabreFan

[3putt]

You mean the guy who guided the Sabres to one Cup final, four conference finals, a Presidents' Trophy and a division title as recently as 2010 — and easily could have won two Cups in his tenure? I certainly wanted Regier gone for the same reason I wanted Ruff gone. It was time. But if at this point early in Tim's career as a GM you are suggesting he is a better GM than Darcy, I disagree. Results have to matter. This is my concern. Regier is a bum because why? His good teams didn't win it all? Things came apart at the end because his core didn't come through? Meanwhile, all GMTM has to do is squeak his team into the playoffs and he's Lou Lamoriello?

I don't get the "he didn't try" thing. I think he did the best he could under Rigas and Golisano. Different operating environments.

[PromoTheRobot]

You mean the guy who guided the Sabres to one Cup final, four conference finals, a Presidents' Trophy and a division title as recently as 2010 — and easily could have won two Cups in his tenure? I certainly wanted Regier gone for the same reason I wanted Ruff gone. It was time. But if at this point early in Tim's career as a GM you are suggesting he is a better GM than Darcy, I disagree. Results have to matter. This is my concern. Regier is a bum because why? His good teams didn't win it all? Things came apart at the end because his core didn't come through? Meanwhile, all GMTM has to do is squeak his team into the playoffs and he's Lou Lamoriello?

Might be the first time I've agreed with you.

 

It's also worth noting Regier did his work with a small market budget, or as a ward of the NHL. GMTM has unlimited resources.

Edited July 30, 2016 by PromoTheRobot

[PASabreFan]

Might be the first time I've agreed with you.

 

It's also worth noting Regier did his work with a small market budget, or as a ward of the NHL. GMTM has unlimited resources.

I think this is where we start sobbing and embrace each other.

[Thorny]

Wait a few years and then re-evaluate.

 

It is too early to tell how players like JT Compher, Joel Armia, Brendan Lemieux and Hudson Fasching will develop.

 

Personally, I think he gave up too much on almost every trade, but it was easy dealing away stockpiled assets he didn't accumulate himself. The real test for Murray is how he deals with an empty cupboard that he himself emptied.

But is the cupboard empty? The facts don't back that up.

We've had three firsts, five seconds and four thirds in the past three drafts, 25 picks overall. We have an extra second and third stashed away already for next year. Three of our best NHL players are 21 and under, four of our starting six defencemen our starting goalie and our future captain are 25 and under. We aggressively pursue college UFAs.

Our cupboard seems pretty full to me.

Yep, the cupboard looks pretty stocked to me, too. There will always be prospect assets cycled out, you can only have so many. Only 50 pro contracts. Not only did the trades makes sense, they were necessary, in that way. Who's the best prospect Murray has dealt? If the answer is Compher, we'll be ok.

 

Also, if people think the cupboard is bare now, just wait a few years for when we are a contending team. Anyone interested should take a gander at the Penguins prospect pool. Very little of anything inspiring, there.

 

It's always good to have a few blue chippers in the system, but there will come time where we will have to give up our spot at the top of the Hockey's Future Team Prospects list, in order to be at the top of the NHL Standings list.