nfreeman Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Agreed, but that =/= GMTM getting outmaneuvered. We got the Mess for next to nothing and signed Balls for free. I know Garth traded for Boychuck, not sure about Leddy. I think the point is that if TM wanted to bolster his D with a couple of vets, these 2 -- who didn't cost that much in trade -- would've been a much better option than the 2 he got. I also think it wasn't rocket surgery to figure out -- as Snow did, but perhaps TM didn't -- that these 2 would be available due to their former teams' cap situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted January 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think the point is that if TM wanted to bolster his D with a couple of vets, these 2 -- who didn't cost that much in trade -- would've been a much better option than the 2 he got. I also think it wasn't rocket surgery to figure out -- as Snow did, but perhaps TM didn't -- that these 2 would be available due to their former teams' cap situations. Boychuk would've hated it here and walked in free agency. Murray made the right call there... Leddy MAYBE but i still see no reason why we would want him at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well, they are a substantial upgrade over Meszaros and Benoit. I think this statement is very closely related to whether GMTM "Wanted" them or not. Also, two second round picks were traded for Boychuk. I'm not sure that qualifies for "didn't cost much", expecially for a 1 year rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) It helps that they have a number 1 guy in Tavares... Sabres still need one so who cares only in that the Isle actually got some players that make them legit instead of tanking along with the Sabres and giving them an extra shot at McEichel. I think the point is that if TM wanted to bolster his D with a couple of vets, these 2 -- who didn't cost that much in trade -- would've been a much better option than the 2 he got. I also think it wasn't rocket surgery to figure out -- as Snow did, but perhaps TM didn't -- that these 2 would be available due to their former teams' cap situations. I think it's timing. The Islanders were in a position where they needed to make a leap. It's only the second season of the Sabres being terrible. The Isles have been down for a long time. The price for us would have been Pysyk, two seconds and a step back from McEichel. And, remember Boychuk was a pending UFA. We might make the deals this coming summer, but last summer I think it would have been a mistake. It was a nice move at the right time by Snow though. Hope the Sabres can doing something similar heading into next season. We have the assets. Edited January 15, 2015 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think the point is that if TM wanted to bolster his D with a couple of vets, these 2 -- who didn't cost that much in trade -- would've been a much better option than the 2 he got. I also think it wasn't rocket surgery to figure out -- as Snow did, but perhaps TM didn't -- that these 2 would be available due to their former teams' cap situations. I don't think TM really wanted to "bolster" the defense. After the Gorges move it looked more like he wanted to fill it out. TM seems quite content with the maelstrom of crap which is this season. I could argue that TM outmaneuvered the Islanders by getting Josh Gorges and re-signing Moulson after trading him thus making the Vanek deal even more in our favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Boychuk would've hated it here and walked in free agency. Murray made the right call there... Leddy MAYBE but i still see no reason why we would want him at this time. I think this statement is very closely related to whether GMTM "Wanted" them or not. Also, two second round picks were traded for Boychuk. I'm not sure that qualifies for "didn't cost much", expecially for a 1 year rental. I think it's timing. The Islanders were in a position where they needed to make a leap. It's only the second season of the Sabres being terrible. The Isles have been down for a long time. The price for us would have been Pysyk, two seconds and a step back from McEichel. And, remember Boychuk was a pending UFA. We might make the deals this coming summer, but last summer I think it would have been a mistake. It was a nice move at the right time by Snow though. Hope the Sabres can doing something similar heading into next season. We have the assets. These are all reasonable responses (and in Tank's case, more politely stated than his 1st one). One key assumption in all of them, though, seems to be that TM didn't necessarily want to improve the D as much as it would've been improved by adding those 2 instead of Messy and Benoit. I remain skeptical on that point -- I think TM thought he was getting better-to-much-better players in Messy and Benoit than he actually got. I also think it's debatable whether the prospects the Isles gave up for Leddy are equivalent to Pysyk, but I suppose they are in the ballpark. As Dudacek points out, we have the assets -- the cupboard wouldn't have been left bare. And I don't see how we can know that Boychuk would've hated the Sabres and wouldn't have re-signed. Just hockey-talking here, but I don't think it's too controversial to assert that Snow did very well in picking up those 2 guys -- and substantially better than TM did in picking up Messy and Benoit. I don't think TM really wanted to "bolster" the defense. After the Gorges move it looked more like he wanted to fill it out. TM seems quite content with the maelstrom of crap which is this season. I could argue that TM outmaneuvered the Islanders by getting Josh Gorges and re-signing Moulson after trading him thus making the Vanek deal even more in our favor. Except that Moulson has been a huge disappointment this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think it's timing. The Islanders were in a position where they needed to make a leap. It's only the second season of the Sabres being terrible. The Isles have been down for a long time. The price for us would have been Pysyk, two seconds and a step back from McEichel. And, remember Boychuk was a pending UFA. We might make the deals this coming summer, but last summer I think it would have been a mistake. It was a nice move at the right time by Snow though. Hope the Sabres can doing something similar heading into next season. We have the assets. This. I expect GMTM to be very busy this offseason. There stil are alot of teams with salary cap issues namely LAK with Pearson and Toffoli being RFAs and Kopitar eligible for an extension July 1st. Chicago has 15 players under contract for next season with approximately 8 million in cap space left. Saad and Kruger are RFAs and Seabrook is eligible for extension July 1st. There will be talent available this offseason via trade. Except that Moulson has been a huge disappointment this season. I believe this season proves he needs a number one center as a set up man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Moulson is pressing so much right now. Feel for the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Snow only did better than Murray if they were trying to accomplish the same thing. They were not trying to accomplish the same thing. Snow was desperately (and effectively, as it turns out) trying to make the Islanders a playoff team. Murray was trying to keep the Sabres as far away from the playoffs as possible while giving the fans a warm fuzzy feeling that they may see watchable hockey. There was no out maneuvering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 This. I expect GMTM to be very busy this offseason. There stil are alot of teams with salary cap issues namely LAK with Pearson and Toffoli being RFAs and Kopitar eligible for an extension July 1st. Chicago has 15 players under contract for next season with approximately 8 million in cap space left. Saad and Kruger are RFAs and Seabrook is eligible for extension July 1st. There will be talent available this offseason via trade. I believe this season proves he needs a number one center as a set up man Yep. This off-season is when we should start to see if TM is worth his salt. This past off-season seemed to be geared towards making sure the soul-crushingly bad team that ended the year wouldn't remain soul-crushingly bad and installing a bit of a skeleton to attach the meat to in future seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Except that Moulson has been a huge disappointment this season. Maybe, it depends on what we wanted to accomplish this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Maybe, it depends on what we wanted to accomplish this season. I think Freeman is absolutely right even if we agree Murray wanted the team to be bad. You don't hand out a 5x5 contract to a guy if you want him to help you be terrible. Moulson is giving far less production than everyone expected. The question, of course, is why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think Freeman is absolutely right even if we agree Murray wanted the team to be bad. You don't hand out a 5x5 contract to a guy if you want him to help you be terrible. Moulson is giving far less production than everyone expected. The question, of course, is why. Well the team as a whole is giving far less production than everyone expected. I think Moulson needs a Reinhart type player to dish him the puck in open lanes. Ennis and Girgensons are not those guys. I will say that Moulson has been quiet and we should keep an eye on that going into next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koomkie Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think Freeman is absolutely right even if we agree Murray wanted the team to be bad. You don't hand out a 5x5 contract to a guy if you want him to help you be terrible. Moulson is giving far less production than everyone expected. The question, of course, is why. I have been wondering this as well and I feel the reason may be because of zemgus. Moulsons bread and butter is in front of the net. And since zemgus has been on his line, zemgus has been storming the front before matt has a chance to get there. Watch moulson, he is floating out around the dots trying to find open space because the crease is occupied. Just one idea/opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Zemgus is also not the creative type of player. I would love to see him and grigorenko or reinhart on a line for once and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) As best as I can tell, we only have one creative offensive player on the whole team and that's Ennis. I think that's a big reason why our power play is so bad. I'm ready for a trade... any trade... otherwise we're stuck waiting for a bunch of 18-19 year olds to become 22-23 year olds. Nothing wrong with that per se, but we're going to run out of stuff to talk about on this forum. B-) Edited January 15, 2015 by Potato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 As best as I can tell, we only have one creative offensive player on the whole team and that's Ennis. I think that's a big reason why our power play is so bad. I'm ready for a trade... any trade... otherwise we're stuck waiting for a bunch of 18-19 year olds to become 22-23 year olds. Nothing wrong with that per se, but we're going to run out of stuff to talk about on this forum. B-) LOL, I think that may have already happened... The get rid of Stafford thread is still alive.... I rest my case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 BRING BACK GERBE. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 BRING BACK GERBE. :rolleyes: Screw that, Tim Kennedy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 These are all reasonable responses (and in Tank's case, more politely stated than his 1st one). One key assumption in all of them, though, seems to be that TM didn't necessarily want to improve the D as much as it would've been improved by adding those 2 instead of Messy and Benoit. I remain skeptical on that point -- I think TM thought he was getting better-to-much-better players in Messy and Benoit than he actually got. I also think it's debatable whether the prospects the Isles gave up for Leddy are equivalent to Pysyk, but I suppose they are in the ballpark. As Dudacek points out, we have the assets -- the cupboard wouldn't have been left bare. And I don't see how we can know that Boychuk would've hated the Sabres and wouldn't have re-signed. Just hockey-talking here, but I don't think it's too controversial to assert that Snow did very well in picking up those 2 guys -- and substantially better than TM did in picking up Messy and Benoit. Except that Moulson has been a huge disappointment this season. I think there is one key piece of evidence is still out on this. If the Islanders simply get swept out of the first round and Boychuk walks, I think losing a high 2nd round pick (flyers 2015 pick) and their 2nd rounder in 2016 is a HUGE loss. they will essentially have 1 pick in the top 50 over a 2 year span. that's gonna create a pretty significant pipeline gap. Well the team as a whole is giving far less production than everyone expected. I think Moulson needs a Reinhart type player to dish him the puck in open lanes. Ennis and Girgensons are not those guys. I will say that Moulson has been quiet and we should keep an eye on that going into next season. I'm not following what you mean here. Could you elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think there is one key piece of evidence is still out on this. If the Islanders simply get swept out of the first round and Boychuk walks, I think losing a high 2nd round pick (flyers 2015 pick) and their 2nd rounder in 2016 is a HUGE loss. they will essentially have 1 pick in the top 50 over a 2 year span. that's gonna create a pretty significant pipeline gap. Solid point. OTOH, if they re-sign him, I think it will be fair to grade Snow pretty highly for the Boychuk trade regardless of how the Isles do in the playoffs this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well the team as a whole is giving far less production than everyone expected. I think Moulson needs a Reinhart type player to dish him the puck in open lanes. Ennis and Girgensons are not those guys. I will say that Moulson has been quiet and we should keep an eye on that going into next season. I believe Moulson was signed to his deal with the expection that he would perform better with more talent around him in years 2-5 of the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I have been wondering this as well and I feel the reason may be because of zemgus. Moulsons bread and butter is in front of the net. And since zemgus has been on his line, zemgus has been storming the front before matt has a chance to get there. Watch moulson, he is floating out around the dots trying to find open space because the crease is occupied. Just one idea/opinion I think this is a really good point. I'll try to keep an eye out for his positioning next game (can't watch tonight). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think Timmy will clearly have outmanoeuvred Snow when he signs Boychuk as a UFA this summer. (or did the Isles already re-sign him?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I have been wondering this as well and I feel the reason may be because of zemgus. Moulsons bread and butter is in front of the net. And since zemgus has been on his line, zemgus has been storming the front before matt has a chance to get there. Watch moulson, he is floating out around the dots trying to find open space because the crease is occupied. Just one idea/opinion This is interesting. I like your hypothesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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