ROC_exEMT Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Usually I'm a lurker here but enjoy reading the posts made especially the ones in the GDT's the next day. And I'll admit I'm not a long-time Sabres follower. I'm a fan but in the sense I like to watch hockey and I've rooted for a few different teams over my 52 years of existence but started really watching the Sabres about 4 years ago. So forgive me if I can't quote stats, history, etc. and while I don't share the pain of you long-term fans I understand how many of you feel after following this franchise for upwards of 41 years and can understand all the frustration and calls for people's heads (and other body parts). So these are just a few comments from a "newbie" ... 1. I would think most everyone would agree that the trades made in the off-season (losing Butler, Byron and Connolly) and picking up Regher, Ehrhoff and Leino were viewed as positives AT THE TIME. Also the idea of Roy returning was seen as a plus. And some of the younger players (Gerbe, Ennis) had another year of experience under their belt so there was no reason not to think this YEAR would be better than last year. At least that was my view especially with how well the team played the 2nd half of last season. 2. looking at Sabres.com I added up the Sabres record for the first 2 months of 2010 - 9-13-3. This year we're 13-10-1 (I subtracted out last night's Detroit game as it was played in December) So this year 1 less game played so far and 4 more wins. Not a huge difference but the record shows they're marginally better at the same point in the season. And that's with new players, AHL fill-ins, injuries, etc. a different style of ownership and MAG at defense pretty much fill-time. 3. 2010/2011 I seem to remember a stat that the Sabres had the 2nd best record in the NHL after January. So, since many of you are better at analyzing the team than I will ever be I can only ask "what happened in December/January last year to change the team's production around?" Did Lindy do something magical to inspire the team to play better? Did the players talk amongst themselves and basically say "we're playing like crap, we look like crap and we're embarassed?" Was it that the leading scorer at the time (Roy) went out with an injury and the rest of the team decided to step it up to fill the void? Did we have leaders in Neidermeyer and Grier (and possibly others) that we don't have now? Did the team finally gel at the right time? Were they just lucky and getting the puck to bounce their way for a change? I won't argue that SOMETHING has to get this team out of the funk it's in and perhaps firing Lindy/Darcy might be the only thing that really sets the tone. And I won't necessarily argue that the CURRENT makeup of the team from a size/grit standpoint won't stand up in the playoffs but from what I've seen of the AHL guys in the pipeline those kids are BIG and we've already seen some benefit to their style of play. Is 24 games into the season enough time to evaluate this team and decide that they're crap and wholesale changes need to be made? Like it or not I can't see making any kind of move now re Darcy/Lindy. I think they need to be given the full year and then address the issue(s) in the off-season if necessary. Sorry, I'm not known for my brevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulax Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I saw a poster utilize Trent Dilfer as a comparison for Lindy Ruff. I think I have a better one: Andy Reid. Here's a quick comparison of the two coaches, both highly regarded in their respective sports as elite coaches. 1) Duration as Head Coach: Ruff - 13 full seasons with BUF/ Reid - 12 full seasons with PHI 2) Overall winning % (Playoffs + Reg. Season): Ruff - .564%/ Reid - .609% 3) Conference Championship Appearances: Ruff - 3/ Reid - 4 4) Championship Appearances: Ruff - 1/ Reid - 1 5) Championships: Ruff - 0/ Reid - 0 I'll let you make your own conclusions, however, in my opinion those are pretty similar careers. In addition, both Ruff & Reid, by all accounts, enjoy unusually strong backing from their owners. In addition, their 2011 season, while not complete, have thus far been major disappointments despite unusual player investment from those owners. Despite the lack of dominance in 2011, each coach will probably enjoy another season due to their strong relations with executives/ownership. I think Ruff has been a model of consistency for a franchise that has undergone three ownership changes during his tenure. That doesn't factor in that the league came into bail the team out due to the Rigas/Adelphia mess. I feel that a small reason Ruff has survived so long is because of his tenure through those tough years. Players could at least see some measure of normalcy in the fact that Ruff was going to be their day to day surpervisor through the season. However, with Pegula's contagious enthusiasm, the Sabres have a leader in their owner that they haven't really had since the Knox's around. While it would be disappointing to see Ruff leave without a championship banner under his watch, I think the Sabres could benefit from some new blood. Randy Carlyle certainly comes to mind. The guy has won a Stanley Cup while balancing big, high-paid personalities. He successfully transfered the starting goaltending job from a player who had had good success in the league, Giguere, to a young up and comer, Hiller. Miller has good years left, however that will, hopefully, have to be done here eventually with Enroth if Jhonas continues to show promise. Oh, and the best part, he just became available and was made to look like a fool on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Goulet Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Id rather try getting rid of guys like roy stafford gaustad and hecht before we get rid of lindy, bring in a new core and see how he does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickshaw Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 The gm needs to go and the coach too. It's been too long with them at the helm. Ruff will get a job like Boudreau did. As for the slags on Myers. Yes he hasn't been too good this year but trust me on this. If the Sabres give up on him it will be one of the worst moves in franchise history. Look at how Chara has developed. It takes time for big men to grow into those bodies. He's got more skill than many dmen and he's still under 22. He's not going anywhere and will win the Norris one day. Possibly growth under Ruff just isn't possible?? Start at the top then move some veterans and so on, but Myers is a keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 That and making trades just for the sake of making trades won't help the team......If good trades can be made then by all means make them.......Does any of us actually know what we can get for some of our players???..........Obviously its been a frustrating past couple of weeks, but we aren't out of anything at this point and watching some of our young talent play well puts us is a stronger position to make trades and truly evaluate for the future. "Get for some of our players?" No! "Get from some of our players?" Yes! It's time to make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nostyle126 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I had no problem with the offseason moves, although at the time I thought Leino was overpaid. Now he seems WAY overpaid. I thought the rest of the moves/signings were solid. As for Ruff, I think he's stale. His system lacks flexibility. - We play 1-2-2 with almost no forecheck. In our own zone, our high forwards are always looking for homerun breakout passes from our offensive defensemen, but teams have caught onto that, and we have been exposed in our own end because our offensive defensemen struggle against stronger teams and our forwards don't support in their own zone. - On the penalty kill we try to block shooting lanes rather than attacking the puck. This technique has its upside, including keeping the guys on the ice fresher since they're not skating as hard, but when you're not blocking those shots, the whole system breaks down. Ruff has shown no desire or ability to adjust to this. - Our powerplay should be a strength, since we have some solid offensive defensemen to man the points. Instead? We have Pommer and Roy back there. Regardless of who we put back there, we can't seem to get a shot through, and we have made almost no coaching adjustment to improve on this. - My biggest problem is that Ruff can't get these guys to play 60 minutes. We have seen flashes of what they are capable of, which makes it even more infuriating. I see lazy coasting. I see failure to backcheck. I see inactive sticks. I see a lot of guys looking around, waiting for someone else to make a play. These guys can be good. The talent is there to be a top 3 team in the conference. It's on Ruff to bring it all together. Having said that, who would we replace Ruff with? Had we been in the market, I would've jumped all over the opportunity to grab Laviolette when Carolina fired him. We missed the boat on that one. Is there someone readily available to replace Ruff with? Someone that would truly be an improvement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I'm too lazy to look up the video of Pegula saying "he ain't going nowhere" but I think we all remember it. It reminds of "Were gonna get the tools to finish the job" Sometimes your just better off letting your actions speak instead of your words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 It reminds of "Were gonna get the tools to finish the job" Sometimes your just better off letting your actions speak instead of your words... All I can hope for Pegula's sake is that he keeps his mouth shut on everything coaching related. I bet he'd be surprised how quickly a fan base could turn on their own savior with one poorly placed public remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FogBat Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Bum Phillips said it best: "There are two types of coaches: those that have been fired, and those that are going to get fired." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I had no problem with the offseason moves, although at the time I thought Leino was overpaid. Now he seems WAY overpaid. I thought the rest of the moves/signings were solid. As for Ruff, I think he's stale. His system lacks flexibility. - We play 1-2-2 with almost no forecheck. In our own zone, our high forwards are always looking for homerun breakout passes from our offensive defensemen, but teams have caught onto that, and we have been exposed in our own end because our offensive defensemen struggle against stronger teams and our forwards don't support in their own zone. - On the penalty kill we try to block shooting lanes rather than attacking the puck. This technique has its upside, including keeping the guys on the ice fresher since they're not skating as hard, but when you're not blocking those shots, the whole system breaks down. Ruff has shown no desire or ability to adjust to this. - Our powerplay should be a strength, since we have some solid offensive defensemen to man the points. Instead? We have Pommer and Roy back there. Regardless of who we put back there, we can't seem to get a shot through, and we have made almost no coaching adjustment to improve on this. - My biggest problem is that Ruff can't get these guys to play 60 minutes. We have seen flashes of what they are capable of, which makes it even more infuriating. I see lazy coasting. I see failure to backcheck. I see inactive sticks. I see a lot of guys looking around, waiting for someone else to make a play. These guys can be good. The talent is there to be a top 3 team in the conference. It's on Ruff to bring it all together. Having said that, who would we replace Ruff with? Had we been in the market, I would've jumped all over the opportunity to grab Laviolette when Carolina fired him. We missed the boat on that one. Is there someone readily available to replace Ruff with? Someone that would truly be an improvement? Great breakdown. I am more of a macro guy who believes in emotion, psychology, and flexibility....but your micro breakdown of all the technicals shows weakness in Ruff's supposed strength, which is his system. The obvious name at GM is going to be Patrick. Pegula is Old Boys Network through and through. If Ken Sawyer only fired him in Pitt for a breath of fresh air (which I pray he is preaching to Pegula right now), then he would make sense, especially if he brought a prodigy with him. As for coach.....the problem here is culture, lack of accountablility and toughness, and lack of leadership. I think bringing in an upstart like Bob Boughner who has had success with developing young players and reflects just the type of thing this organization lacks...could work wonders. It would be best if he could have strong assistants who could help with the technicals yet would be happy in that role. Plenty of ex-Sabres around who fit the bill. Mike Ramsey is free now I think and would make a heck of an assistant for our young D-men. Foligno just was let go. I don't know who Boughner would like to bring in, but I feel he is the type of macro general that is needed, he is humble and knows he is still learning, and the fans would embrace him. We already screwed the pooch by letting Dineen fly. Who can take tomorrow?....Dip it in a dream?.....Seperate the sorrow and collect up all the cream?....The Boogieman CAN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Wings Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Time for a change. We need new blood. I've been one of many to think that Ruff has fielded a competitive team when ownership went cheap but no excuses this year. There are long stretches of games where we don't have effort. It's not like one or two guys either, more like the majority of the team. To me, that's on coaching. Just watching shots of Ruff on the bench, he looks defeated.... This...big time. I've had Lindy's back for years, but I think we've reached the point where it's time. It's unacceptable to have this team - after all the changes in ownership, management, and personnel - come out and give 82% each game. I'm with Derrico...that's on coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Rhea Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I had no problem with the offseason moves, although at the time I thought Leino was overpaid. Now he seems WAY overpaid. I thought the rest of the moves/signings were solid. As for Ruff, I think he's stale. His system lacks flexibility. - We play 1-2-2 with almost no forecheck. In our own zone, our high forwards are always looking for homerun breakout passes from our offensive defensemen, but teams have caught onto that, and we have been exposed in our own end because our offensive defensemen struggle against stronger teams and our forwards don't support in their own zone. - On the penalty kill we try to block shooting lanes rather than attacking the puck. This technique has its upside, including keeping the guys on the ice fresher since they're not skating as hard, but when you're not blocking those shots, the whole system breaks down. Ruff has shown no desire or ability to adjust to this. - Our powerplay should be a strength, since we have some solid offensive defensemen to man the points. Instead? We have Pommer and Roy back there. Regardless of who we put back there, we can't seem to get a shot through, and we have made almost no coaching adjustment to improve on this. - My biggest problem is that Ruff can't get these guys to play 60 minutes. We have seen flashes of what they are capable of, which makes it even more infuriating. I see lazy coasting. I see failure to backcheck. I see inactive sticks. I see a lot of guys looking around, waiting for someone else to make a play. These guys can be good. The talent is there to be a top 3 team in the conference. It's on Ruff to bring it all together. Having said that, who would we replace Ruff with? Had we been in the market, I would've jumped all over the opportunity to grab Laviolette when Carolina fired him. We missed the boat on that one. Is there someone readily available to replace Ruff with? Someone that would truly be an improvement? This is excellent. I like Ruff but would not have any problem seeing him get dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabresnutinphoenix Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Ultimately if they don't make the playoffs....something big is going to give...LOOK AT THE PAYROLL!!!! Pegula expects to win...case closed! :yawn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 The Lindy Ruff show is getting old ad tired. Give me the hardest working team in the NHL any day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 The Lindy Ruff show is getting old ad tired. Give me the hardest working team in the NHL any day The one that's on at 8am on Tuesdays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnyguy Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Ruff on the hot seat? I can see that but you know who else should be on the hot seat? Our "core players". The big 4 who who have been on this team for years and have proven they are lacking in being the right group to build a winner around, Vanek, Roy, Pominville and Stafford. That's the problem with this team right here and right now, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 I think Ruff stays through the year. It will depend as these guys get healthy and as long as the Sabres make a run in the playoffs then he will be here next year. If not I gotta believe the TPegs makes a change and that will include Regier.. I would like to see the Rammer come back, just my MO or a combo of Ramsey and Schoenfeld for the D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Why do you consider either of those a big step? I assume you are kidding? Trading Roy would be a huge move. The Sabres wouldn't get equal value for him, so it would essentially be dumping a consistently productive player at a position of need because the negatives outweigh the positives. As for Stafford, he's not a star, but healthy-scratching a guy who had 30+ goals last year and just got a fat contract extension would also be pretty significant. Myers isn't one of their top 2 players. You're not serious? Miller and Myers have been two of the worst Sabres this season. Both had been benched just prior to being injured. Injuries are no excuse. Most of the players brought up played better than the player they replaced. There needs to be a complete house cleaning. There is no reason to waste any more time. There is nothing to gain by throwing away another 57 games. Why waste the time? Make the changes and start moving this franchise in the right direction. This franchise has many needs which include toughness, intensity and accountability. The reason this team is in such need of these things is that they are not priorities to Regier and Ruff. Until a GM and coach are brought in that believe toughness and accountability are must haves than nothing is going to change on the ice. As we saw last night, Miller is the spine of this team. Enroth has done well when called upon (although the bloom is well off his rose at this point), but Miller is the man. I think quite a few posters here have forgotten, but he got off to a great start this year before slumping, which all goalies do from time to time. Myers is up-and-down, like most young defensemen, but IMHO he's the Sabres' best skater (ie non-goalie), and it's not even close. I'd also hazard a guess that he's the player on the Sabres whom other GMs would choose first if asked who they'd like to cherry-pick. This team doesn't have "many needs." It has great goaltending and a very good group of defensemen. What they really need is an overhaul of the top 6. Darcy should've gotten it done in the offseason but didn't. Other than that group of overrated and overpaid mediocrities, there is sufficient toughness and accountability on the team with guys like Regehr, Myers, Ehrhoff, Weber, Gaustad, Gerbe, Kaleta, Adam and McCormick and more in the pipeline as we saw last night with guys like Kassian, Tropp, and Finley. Most would likely agree that Lindy and Darcy are joined at the hip - you don't get rid of one and keep the other. The defining moment of their tenure, in my mind, is the team lack of response to the Lucic hit. Their tenure covers a lot of territory and other defining points, like getting a team with Hasek and a bunch of string and rubber bands to the conf. finals and the finals, beating Ottawa in the playoffs, responding to Neil's hit on Drury, coming back to beat the Rangers in the playoffs, and Black Sunday. You are of course aware that you're referencing the Flyers team that fired John Stevens on December 5th, 2009 when the Flyers were 13-11-1 but had lost 6 of 7 and hired Peter Laviolette to replace him. Laviolette finished 28-24-5 after starting out 2-7-1. The Flyers of course went to the Cup finals that year and battled injuries to key skaters and goalies all year. Of course I could in turn reference the 2008-2009 Penguins who canned Michel Therrien when he was 27-25-5 (after a 4-6 10 game stretch), replaced him with Dan Bylsma who lost his first game in a SO and then went 18-3-3 down the stretch and led them to the Cup. Clearly, changing the coach in the middle of the season is folly and can have no impact on the players in the room. There are some significant differences between those Flyers and Penguins teams (like, say, Pronger, Giroux, Briere, Crosby, Malkin and Staal) and this Sabres team. Ruff on the hot seat? I can see that but you know who else should be on the hot seat? Our "core players". The big 4 who who have been on this team for years and have proven they are lacking in being the right group to build a winner around, Vanek, Roy, Pominville and Stafford. That's the problem with this team right here and right now, There we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 I assume you are kidding? Trading Roy would be a huge move. The Sabres wouldn't get equal value for him, so it would essentially be dumping a consistently productive player at a position of need because the negatives outweigh the positives. As for Stafford, he's not a star, but healthy-scratching a guy who had 30+ goals last year and just got a fat contract extension would also be pretty significant. As we saw last night, Miller is the spine of this team. Enroth has done well when called upon (although the bloom is well off his rose at this point), but Miller is the man. I think quite a few posters here have forgotten, but he got off to a great start this year before slumping, which all goalies do from time to time. Myers is up-and-down, like most young defensemen, but IMHO he's the Sabres' best skater (ie non-goalie), and it's not even close. I'd also hazard a guess that he's the player on the Sabres whom other GMs would choose first if asked who they'd like to cherry-pick. This team doesn't have "many needs." It has great goaltending and a very good group of defensemen. What they really need is an overhaul of the top 6. Darcy should've gotten it done in the offseason but didn't. Other than that group of overrated and overpaid mediocrities, there is sufficient toughness and accountability on the team with guys like Regehr, Myers, Ehrhoff, Weber, Gaustad, Gerbe, Kaleta, Adam and McCormick and more in the pipeline as we saw last night with guys like Kassian, Tropp, and Finley. I agree that the biggest need is to change the top 6. They need more top tier players in the top 6 and less of this "roll all the lines" strategy. When the chips are down and we need that last shift we don't have the top line to throw at an opponent and overmatch them. That and we need to focus on putting together an actual third line shutdown line to match against the opponent's top line. Vanek is the only top 6 player that I would keep. The rest of the top 6 show spurts of skill but for the most part they seem to float around the ice and are not consistently effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 This team doesn't have "many needs." It has great goaltending and a very good group of defensemen. What they really need is an overhaul of the top 6. Darcy should've gotten it done in the offseason but didn't. Other than that group of overrated and overpaid mediocrities, there is sufficient toughness and accountability on the team with guys like Regehr, Myers, Ehrhoff, Weber, Gaustad, Gerbe, Kaleta, Adam and McCormick and more in the pipeline as we saw last night with guys like Kassian, Tropp, and Finley. I'm changing my tune a little bit this season. I am now not looking to overhaul the top 6. With Vanek and Pommers efforts this year I am comfortable saying they aren't the problem. My feeling is now that the overhaul needs to come in positions 3-8. That is where players like Stafford, Roy, Leino, and Boyes lie. And I am OK adding Ennis to that list as well. Keep the top 2 wingers, add a center for them, replace 2 wingers on the 2nd line. Is that too much to ask? :P :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Maybe more than anyone on this board, whether I agree or disagree, I love your ability to make your point in 30 words or less. Thanks, I do try ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Lindy has done a good job considering no other team has has as many injured starters. Yeah they've looked flat and inconsistent and lacking in identity but they will gel when it matters most. You know what else has been inconsistent? The fan base! It seems it's always about who to complain about. That's what I get from the small amount radio show listening I've done lately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Lindy has done a good job considering no other team has has as many injured starters. Yeah they've looked flat and inconsistent and lacking in identity but they will gel when it matters most. You know what else has been inconsistent? The fan base! It seems it's always about who to complain about. That's what I get from the small amount radio show listening I've done lately... If your source is listening to WGR, then you would think the apocalypse is coming... nothing but nutjobs on there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'm changing my tune a little bit this season. I am now not looking to overhaul the top 6. With Vanek and Pommers efforts this year I am comfortable saying they aren't the problem. My feeling is now that the overhaul needs to come in positions 3-8. That is where players like Stafford, Roy, Leino, and Boyes lie. And I am OK adding Ennis to that list as well. Keep the top 2 wingers, add a center for them, replace 2 wingers on the 2nd line. Is that too much to ask? :P :P While Vanek and Pommer have looked good this season, both have also been invisible during the Sabres' recent lousy stretch. They've certainly had better years than the 3-8 guys, but not enough to make me say they are untouchable. My first choice would be to turn Roy and Stafford into other assets but I'm open to anything. My bottom line is that other than Vanek, each of the top 6-8 forwards is essentially a skilled complementary player -- not a guy who can be counted on to consistently deliver a powerful, game-affecting performance. None of them is a physical presence, none of them is tough to play against and none of them delivers in crunch time. (I think that the jury is still out on Gerbe and Ennis though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Even with all of our injuries, we would be a playoff team (if the season were over today) and we are just 7 points from the first seed and 4 points from the second seed with 58 games left in the season. Yet, you guys want to get rid of Lindy? I like the fact that Lindy is one of our own (as a player and coach for so many years and a part of the community) and has been the coach for so many years. There is no reason to get rid of Lindy. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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