Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 If you want the Sabres to be able to hire top-notch talent in the future, you can't come off looking impetuous by firing people you just extended. So like it or not Ruff is here to stay. Regier too. No one worth a damn is going to accept a position with an owner who says he wants you then fires you two months into a season. Argue all you want but the die was cast when Pegs gave Lindy and Darcy their deals. PTR Pegula didn't sign Darcy to an extension. Quinn signed Darcy to an extension while the team was in negotiation to be sold. That on it's own is enough for me to fire someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 It would better for Pegula to continue to allow apathy to spread among his customers? Apathy is spreading among customers? How are you measuring that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Apathy is spreading among customers? How are you measuring that one? Arena noise? hundreds of empty seats even though there are 16,000 season ticket holders? Fans doing Christmas shopping and yardwork saying they aren't watching the game after Boston? It's not mass apathy as of yet. The next 10-15 games will probably define the future of the fanbase. 10-5....the dogs get called off. 6-9 and no changes....heads up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Apathy is spreading among customers? How are you measuring that one? By reading the posts on the #1 fan message board in the NHL. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbash Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Yeah, the only place Bowman didn't go to the finals and/or win a cup is Buffalo. Figures. All this Bowman talk also spotlights the other side of this premise: If not Lindy, who do you want to replace him from the pool of available options? Who gets you excited, makes you believe the Sabres will take the next step? Personally, I'm a little stumped, unless the Red Wings suffer an organizational aneurism and fire their guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 When have I ever said I was a Roy fan? I like the value you get from Roy at his current contract compared with his production. Briere has put up some pretty impressive numbers in the playoffs for Philly. He's not putting up the those same numbers with the Sabres over that time. The Sabres just didn't have the depth at center Philly did to allow Breire to settle into a lessor role. How can anyone properly judge the job Bowman did here in Buffalo. He was only here for six years. Everyone knows it takes at least 14 years to properly judge a coach and GM. :doh: Bowman is a great example for you and other members of Team Apathy. Even Hall of Fame coaches can be fired. Lindy is far from being a Hall of Fame coach, Lindy is no longer effective and has worn out his welcome Getting a player like Kovi is a great move for any team. He is on his way to being one of the all-time great goal scorers in the league. He's making as much as Leino is this season. His cap hit over the length of the contract if far from prohibited to the Devils. I have no problems with one dimensional players as long as the one dimensional is exceptional. Kovi is an exceptional goal scorer. Kovi is the level of offensive player that many claimed Briere was. Regarding Briere -- he led the Sabres in playoff scoring during 2 deep playoff runs -- so he did just fine without Philly's center depth while he was here. Also, you claimed in a prior post that he was 2nd fiddle to Drury while he was here, which was nonsense. He led all Sabres forwards in ice time during 2005-06 and 2006-07. As for Bowman -- since you aren't responding to the irrefutable point that he was a washout as GM here, I'll assume you are conceding the point. As for Kovy -- he had 31 goals last year and is on pace for 24 this year. Sweeeeeet. He's apparently come down with the same huge long-term contract ennui afflicting Ovechkin. More importantly, the Devils had 106 points the year before they traded for him, they got bounced in the first round in 5 games the year they got him at the deadline, then 81 points in his first full season there and are on pace for 82 points this year, his 2nd full season there. They are married to him for another 10 years. I fail to see how the trade can possibly be viewed as anything other than a complete debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Arena noise? hundreds of empty seats even though there are 16,000 season ticket holders? Fans doing Christmas shopping and yardwork saying they aren't watching the game after Boston? It's not mass apathy as of yet. The next 10-15 games will probably define the future of the fanbase. 10-5....the dogs get called off. 6-9 and no changes....heads up! I go to about half the home games, I can't say I've seen much difference year to year in support. Heck, after the lockout, there were no crowds until about January. Maybe you see some football fans that have converted since that tend to watch hockey more like football. But in the long view....things are pretty stable. Sure if they go 3-7 out of the next 10 that will hurt. But (and I'm really not looking for a fight - I'm not very invested in this particular discussion) you guys seem to predict a bottoming out of support on an annual basis (or at least that is my perception) - that doesn't really seem to happen at least to me. So I'm not really sure what your baseline reading is when it is never good. There will be a lot of great hockey to come. Sometimes in a hockey season you have to tread water for a while. Every team seems to go through it. Boston and Detroit seemed to do theirs early. When I look at coaches...mostly I'm looking a management of ice time - d pairs - forward lines - defenses - and entries. X and O stuff. The trouble recently is with injuries - you have fewer options - especially the Islander game at home last week - normally Ruff would have shortened the bench and reduced ice for the D for stupid passes. Which would have been a good move...but when you are down to 5 D men 3 which were rookies...not many options. The same with the forward lines. What would Scotty Bowman do in that situation?....pretty much what Ruff did. Carry on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Else? Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 How much "coaching" does a head coach really do? The main man behind the bench is more of a game manager. How well is the managing going? What i see is a lot of complaining, finger pointing, and excuse making. Namely recently calling out rookies like Kassian and Adam for missing scoring chances. Is this really the way the team needs led. It is true the coach does not play on the ice, but is he not responsible for team preparedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 How much "coaching" does a head coach really do? The main man behind the bench is more of a game manager. How well is the managing going? What i see is a lot of complaining, finger pointing, and excuse making. Namely recently calling out rookies like Kassian and Adam for missing scoring chances. Is this really the way the team needs led. It is true the coach does not play on the ice, but is he not responsible for team preparedness. I like your first post. I"m sure it was better than mine! I also agree with you about Lindys style. I used to really hate it when he would call guys out in the media. I got over it when it seemed not to bother guys too much and they still came to play. But I guess it also shows that by calling out kids for gaffes the vets can probably appreciate that and tell them that will need to get used to it if they intend on sticking here. Again nice first post and welcome here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 How much "coaching" does a head coach really do? The main man behind the bench is more of a game manager. How well is the managing going? What i see is a lot of complaining, finger pointing, and excuse making. Namely recently calling out rookies like Kassian and Adam for missing scoring chances. Is this really the way the team needs led. It is true the coach does not play on the ice, but is he not responsible for team preparedness. Welcome back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Welcome back. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I like your first post. I"m sure it was better than mine! I also agree with you about Lindys style. I used to really hate it when he would call guys out in the media. I got over it when it seemed not to bother guys too much and they still came to play. But I guess it also shows that by calling out kids for gaffes the vets can probably appreciate that and tell them that will need to get used to it if they intend on sticking here. Again nice first post and welcome here. At the risk of overgeneralizing ... I would say getting "called out" is meaningless in hockey culture. Though it gets used on this board a lot. Consider this. Players don't worry about what coaches say to the media. They hear what is said in the game and in the locker room, aside from that they only hear in ice time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Else? Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Thank You for your welcoming words. I will not try to be too much of a downer. I am glad you brought up Ruff's coaching style. There is one thing that has always bother me with Ruff's "system". I really Question if there is any real system at all. I see a team that inconsistantly forechecks. Runs no disciplined zone in the neautral zone. The only consistant system seems to be his it the obsession with line changes. I don't mean Line schuffling, which there is way too much of. I mean the high school type attitude of letting the winger (usually the Right side) dump the puck in or around the goaltender, while all three forwards rush to the bench (with the exception to the coasting Roy). That is why they cannot sustain a forecheck like other NHL teams like Pittsburgh or Boston can. Just think back over the years how many times you have seen Pomminstein, Kotalik, Stafford, Satan and the like just slap the puck in or on net from the blue line and peel away. Is a staggered line change like the other 29 teams in the NHL use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 How many Hall-of-Fame level talent did he draft while in Buffalo? Barrasso, Andreychuk and Housley come to mind. His 1982 draft has to be considered one of the all-time great drafts in NHL history. Andreyslug will probably end up in the HoF strictly due to longevity; Housley probably will strictly for the same reason Joey Mullen made it; I doubt Barrasso ever gets in. Mike Ramsey belongs there before any of the other 3, but you probably didn't realize that he'd been drafted by Scotty. (And no, I don't expect Mike to get there.) His next pick after Rammer was Ruff. Not too shabby a start. But I do see why you'd think Scotty was a great drafter during his Sabres stay, grabbing players such as Steve Patrick, Mike Moller, Sean McKenna, Jay North, Hannu Virta, Jim Aldred, Colin Chisholm, Paul Cyr (whom he chose 7 slots before Andreyslug), Mike Anderson, Jens Johansson, Norm Lacombe, Adam Creighton, John Tucker, Richard Hajdu, Bo Mikael Andersson, Doug Trapp, Ray Sheppard, Calle Johaansson, Benoit Hogue, Shawn Anderson (can never have too may Andersons (sp)), Greg Brown, Bob Corkum, and Kevin Kerr all in the 1st 3 rounds during his time in WNY in addition to the 3 you mentioned. Oh and I almost forgot, he also drafted Keith Gretzky :doh: and Jiri friggin' Dudacek :doh: :doh: :doh: . Did I mention that Dudacek was a 1st rounder. :doh: Only when you don't consider what he could have done. 1982.....Housley, Cyr, and Andreychuk. Scotty could have moved for Brian Bellows or Scott Stevens because Detroit wanted out of the 2 spot. When Boston flubbed and drafted Gord Frickin Klusack - we thought it was a done deal. Everyone wanted Bellows and Detriot wanted a second first. Anyway....Housley and Cyr instead of Bellows or Stevens. Scotty still talks up Housley. Not to mention when he chose Barrasso, Neely was still on the board and when Neely was taken at 9, he had the 10th and 11th picks. Both of whom were certain HoFers; 1 by the name of Lacombe and the other Creighton. I have a hard time giving Bowman too much credit for Perraults success. Barry Melrose would look like a genius coaching Perrault. Clearly Scotty MADE Perreault. He was a nobody till Scotty came to town. :rolleyes: It would better for Pegula to continue to allow apathy to spread among his customers? The idea that firing Ruff and Regier would put off any potential candidates is one of the biggest jokes posted on this board in some time. Do you actually think potential candidates for one of 30 head coaching jobs and 30 GM jobs in the NHL are going to pass on it because Pegula fired Regier and/or Ruff mid-season? If Pegula is the great businessman he should no that he who hesitates is lost. That throwing away another five months on the failed experiment known as Status Quo is simply bad business. If Pegula is the great businessman, he should know that he who takes action when there aren't enough facts available to act upon ain't in business for too long. Yes, TP should clearly realize that since taking over (1 week prior to the trade deadline) that his crew only brought in 1 former 40 goal scorer, signed the highest rated D-man free agent, signed the 2nd highest rated forward free agent, and traded for the defenseman that you've been clamoring for for basically forever judging by your recent posts. TP decided that DR was up for the job. It'd be foolish to cut and run midseason at a point where the Sabres are essentially on pace to make the playoffs and still realize they need to upgrade the center position. Pegula didn't sign Darcy to an extension. Quinn signed Darcy to an extension while the team was in negotiation to be sold. That on it's own is enough for me to fire someone. I don't know if it's enough to fire someone, but that and the fact that TP didn't get enamored with DR in the mid-70's is enough to believe that if TP doesn't believe DR is getting the job done he will bring in someone else to get said job done. Arena noise? hundreds of empty seats even though there are 16,000 season ticket holders? Fans doing Christmas shopping and yardwork saying they aren't watching the game after Boston? It's not mass apathy as of yet. The next 10-15 games will probably define the future of the fanbase. 10-5....the dogs get called off. 6-9 and no changes....heads up! Hundreds of empty seats is a crisis? I recall EVERY season in the Mmarena prior to the lockout when there were thousands of empty seats to watch teams like Hartford and Tampa and Florida and Columbus prior to mid-January. I also recall almost all games back then being sold out after mid-February. I go to about half the home games, I can't say I've seen much difference year to year in support. Heck, after the lockout, there were no crowds until about January. Maybe you see some football fans that have converted since that tend to watch hockey more like football. But in the long view....things are pretty stable. Sure if they go 3-7 out of the next 10 that will hurt. But (and I'm really not looking for a fight - I'm not very invested in this particular discussion) you guys seem to predict a bottoming out of support on an annual basis (or at least that is my perception) - that doesn't really seem to happen at least to me. So I'm not really sure what your baseline reading is when it is never good. There will be a lot of great hockey to come. Sometimes in a hockey season you have to tread water for a while. Every team seems to go through it. Boston and Detroit seemed to do theirs early. When I look at coaches...mostly I'm looking a management of ice time - d pairs - forward lines - defenses - and entries. X and O stuff. The trouble recently is with injuries - you have fewer options - especially the Islander game at home last week - normally Ruff would have shortened the bench and reduced ice for the D for stupid passes. Which would have been a good move...but when you are down to 5 D men 3 which were rookies...not many options. The same with the forward lines. What would Scotty Bowman do in that situation?....pretty much what Ruff did. Carry on.... Nice post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Andreyslug will probably end up in the HoF strictly due to longevity; Housley probably will strictly for the same reason Joey Mullen made it; I doubt Barrasso ever gets in. Mike Ramsey belongs there before any of the other 3, but you probably didn't realize that he'd been drafted by Scotty. (And no, I don't expect Mike to get there.) His next pick after Rammer was Ruff. Not too shabby a start. But I do see why you'd think Scotty was a great drafter during his Sabres stay, grabbing players such as Steve Patrick, Mike Moller, Sean McKenna, Jay North, Hannu Virta, Jim Aldred, Colin Chisholm, Paul Cyr (whom he chose 7 slots before Andreyslug), Mike Anderson, Jens Johansson, Norm Lacombe, Adam Creighton, John Tucker, Richard Hajdu, Bo Mikael Andersson, Doug Trapp, Ray Sheppard, Calle Johaansson, Benoit Hogue, Shawn Anderson (can never have too may Andersons (sp)), Greg Brown, Bob Corkum, and Kevin Kerr all in the 1st 3 rounds during his time in WNY in addition to the 3 you mentioned. Oh and I almost forgot, he also drafted Keith Gretzky :doh: and Jiri friggin' Dudacek :doh: :doh: :doh: . Did I mention that Dudacek was a 1st rounder. :doh: Not to mention when he chose Barrasso, Neely was still on the board and when Neely was taken at 9, he had the 10th and 11th picks. Both of whom were certain HoFers; 1 by the name of Lacombe and the other Creighton. Clearly Scotty MADE Perreault. He was a nobody till Scotty came to town. :rolleyes: If Pegula is the great businessman, he should know that he who takes action when there aren't enough facts available to act upon ain't in business for too long. Yes, TP should clearly realize that since taking over (1 week prior to the trade deadline) that his crew only brought in 1 former 40 goal scorer, signed the highest rated D-man free agent, signed the 2nd highest rated forward free agent, and traded for the defenseman that you've been clamoring for for basically forever judging by your recent posts. TP decided that DR was up for the job. It'd be foolish to cut and run midseason at a point where the Sabres are essentially on pace to make the playoffs and still realize they need to upgrade the center position. I don't know if it's enough to fire someone, but that and the fact that TP didn't get enamored with DR in the mid-70's is enough to believe that if TP doesn't believe DR is getting the job done he will bring in someone else to get said job done. Hundreds of empty seats is a crisis? I recall EVERY season in the Mmarena prior to the lockout when there were thousands of empty seats to watch teams like Hartford and Tampa and Florida and Columbus prior to mid-January. I also recall almost all games back then being sold out after mid-February. Nice post. Making the playoffs in the NHL is the equivalent of breaking even. It is by no means an accomplishment. Especially when the goal as stated by the owner is winning the Stanley Cup. Where are the Sabres right now. At the same point with the same uninspired product they have had for years. Regier gave it his best shot this off-season and it wasn't good enough. Despite the millions Regier spent he ended up with the same product he had produced under the imaginary restraints. If Pegula stands by and does nothing he is pretty much giving up on the season. It would appear apathy has hit the owners box. Your best argument against Bowman is that not every pick he made was a HOFer? That's a pretty weak attempt on your part. :oops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FolignosJock Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 By reading the posts on the #1 fan message board in the NHL. :thumbsup: is this the #1??? I would like to see the stats of NHL message boards.... it would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DumbPuck Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 is this the #1??? I would like to see the stats of NHL message boards.... it would be interesting. #1 my based on clutch GDT performances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Making the playoffs in the NHL is the equivalent of breaking even. It is by no means an accomplishment. Especially when the goal as stated by the owner is winning the Stanley Cup. Where are the Sabres right now. At the same point with the same uninspired product they have had for years. Regier gave it his best shot this off-season and it wasn't good enough. Despite the millions Regier spent he ended up with the same product he had produced under the imaginary restraints. If Pegula stands by and does nothing he is pretty much giving up on the season. It would appear apathy has hit the owners box. Your best argument against Bowman is that not every pick he made was a HOFer? That's a pretty weak attempt on your part. :oops: :huh: I don't have close to enough time to get into fully debunking your apparent shift back to 'Bowman was great in Buffalo' argument. I was merely rebutting your apparent 'Bowman was the best drafter ever' argument. In terms that you'd appear to understand, the succinct argument against Bowman as a great GM is 37-37-6; 28-44-8. Expounding slightly: giving Ramsay 21 games to work with the worst Sabres team ever assembled before axing him and then proving how awful his team assembling was at the time by going behind the bench and showing that even arguably the best coach ever couldn't make a silk purse out of that sow's ear. 7-22-4 when he was canned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 :huh: I don't have close to enough time to get into fully debunking your apparent shift back to 'Bowman was great in Buffalo' argument. I was merely rebutting your apparent 'Bowman was the best drafter ever' argument. In terms that you'd appear to understand, the succinct argument against Bowman as a great GM is 37-37-6; 28-44-8. Expounding slightly: giving Ramsay 21 games to work with the worst Sabres team ever assembled before axing him and then proving how awful his team assembling was at the time by going behind the bench and showing that even arguably the best coach ever couldn't make a silk purse out of that sow's ear. 7-22-4 when he was canned. I agree. Coaches that are said to have had great careers also had great players. I respect Bowman for his hockey acumen but for me when scotty was here in Buffalo I can't think of a worst time personally to be a sabres fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightrider Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Um, 2001-2003 were pretty bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Ruff coached all the toughness out of the team, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm so ready for Randy Carlyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 I'm so ready for Randy Carlyle. He's ready for you, too. He's waiting for you at the Hampton on Delaware and Chip. You two have a great night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Any idea how many multiple goal leads Lindy Ruff coached teams have given up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Any idea how many multiple goal leads Lindy Ruff coached teams have given up? No clue, but it's way too many for my liking. Spot the Sabres a two-goal lead in the first, it's all but a guaranteed win these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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