Dave Dryden Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I don't think losing 5 out of 6 in games 20 through 25 of the year means that it's time to hit the panic button. Let's remember that all 6 of those games have been without their 2 best players in Myers and Miller. Stay the course. TP chose to give DR and LR the chance to show that their plan would work. One off-season and 25 games of a new season is not a sufficient evaluation period. If they don't round into form over the course of this season, including an improved playoff showing -- fine, get rid of both of them (or at least DR). If there's a big step to be taken now, I'd be totally fine with trading Roy and/or healthy-scratching Stafford. Good post. I'm in the I dunno category on firing Lindy, but that's because it is so frustrating watching this team. But Pegula is a business man, and his initial strategic plan was to keep Regier and Ruff, show the team love by splurging on them, and bring in new talent that hopefully would make a team that was the best in the league during the last 3 months of last season better and close to a Cup. We are now in the relatively early stages of that initial business plan, and so far the results do not look good. But this guy did not make $3b by panicking, and he will be patient and will not assume his initial plan is wrong based on 25 games--particularly given the injuries. He will take the rest of this year--at minimum-- to watch and learn and develop his own views on this team based on living through it. He will then counsel with Ted Black and his inner circle and decide if more drastic action is needed. But this guy did no make $3b by listening to fans. As Marv Levy said, listen to the fans and you'll soon be sitting with them in the stands. So for better or worse--and it might be worse--you are going to have to live with this team for the year. I do not think it unreasonable to believe that this team can still gel at some point with the new guys and some young guys and that the team you see now will be better come April. I would want about 4-1 odds on that proposition, however, as right now they look like the same old same old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I don't think losing 5 out of 6 in games 20 through 25 of the year means that it's time to hit the panic button. Let's remember that all 6 of those games have been without their 2 best players in Myers and Miller. Stay the course. TP chose to give DR and LR the chance to show that their plan would work. One off-season and 25 games of a new season is not a sufficient evaluation period. If they don't round into form over the course of this season, including an improved playoff showing -- fine, get rid of both of them (or at least DR). If there's a big step to be taken now, I'd be totally fine with trading Roy and/or healthy-scratching Stafford. You're not serious? Miller and Myers have been two of the worst Sabres this season. Both had been benched just prior to being injured. Injuries are no excuse. Most of the players brought up played better than the player they replaced. There needs to be a complete house cleaning. There is no reason to waste any more time. There is nothing to gain by throwing away another 57 games. Why waste the time? Make the changes and start moving this franchise in the right direction. This franchise has many needs which include toughness, intensity and accountability. The reason this team is in such need of these things is that they are not priorities to Regier and Ruff. Until a GM and coach are brought in that believe toughness and accountability are must haves than nothing is going to change on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Well, it's either that or retract his "Winning's not a goal, it's a belief" and "we're gonna win the Stanley Cup" statements. Nicely said! :thumbsup: You really need to post more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ForTripping Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Winning is a belief.... we're going to win the Stanley Cup & then win another 1.... etc... Not with the status quo of front office behind the bench & on the bench. All of the big $ spent on "players" & renovations allowed the soft team to remain as such. The cushy locker room lounge etc.... looks good to the fans,media etc... but the fact remains the same group of players are in the new cushy digs. If he is such the sharp businees man maybe he should realize that sometimes you've got to cut your losses and move forward. His teary presser when he was announced & presented as the new owner sent a message to this "soft" team & staff that message being I too am a softie and all of you are welcome to stay in soft comfort. If its all about winning the holiest of the holy do something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Regarding Lindy Ruff, i suppose the question to ask is name a player under his tutelage who has blossomed into a great player and if so , what was Lindy's role, what did he do? I see players like Derek Roy who come to Buffalo drafted with expectations they would become very good if not excellent players. In Roy's case he at this point in time his career represents a average player, who has the occasional good night and even more so occasional excellent night. Frankly I see this as representative of the team as they have been a solid mid ground team, teasing on some nights being very good and exceptions a excellent team on the precipice on being a great team , only to fall back to middling average. From the two captains to the present this management has not been able to identify leaders, (they needed to identify one of them,)or groom young drafted players to become leaders. There is lip service comments that the team has plenty of leaders, but the over extended amount to time team has been a middling one, says differently. Yes in my opinion its time for Lindy to go and Regier as well, the team has not got over the hump so to speak and is stuck in the middle. its possible they may even with some hot goal tending have a decent playoff run, but they stand a snow balls chance in hell of winning it all as currently constructed and players learning and growing at their craft as they are....imo The rub here of course is , its all well and fine to make above statements , but if Lindy and Regier are to go, who is going to replace them and how specially would do they need approach their respective jobs with what is available to them that at present the two current ones are failing at. Tough call really Lindy and Darcy have been at the helm of a team that was in peril of going under, and the management style of continuity has righted the ship to a unexceptional but solid team that at least makes playoffs, which for this markets needs has kept this team afloat and now apparently stable, a change and its entirely possible the team go in either direction. I say roll the dice, middling may work for owners but it sucks for most fans. (there are a number of lower tier coaching and management types ready to make jump, just as Hunter did, at some point they need take a at least educated risk....imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I actually hope this team misses the playoffs at this point. That is probably the only way Pegs will be like "HOLY CRAP!" and make some actual changes. I am going to say that I hope this slide continues because I think at this point it is better to be completely horrendous or a cup contender. Everything in between keeps this institutionalized mediocrity. A lot of people will not agree with this and thats fine but, when they drafted Armia (Finesse Winger) instead of McNeil (Tank Center) I thought it seemed like the same old same old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 A lot of people will not agree with this and thats fine but, when they drafted Arniel (Finesse Winger) instead of McNeil (Tank Center) I thought it seemed like the same old same old. Do you mean Joel Armia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james duncan Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 The only thing TPegs has to avoid is getting the reputation as a meddling or impatient owner. He has the deepest pockets in the league and has made a sterling reputation for himself. He will have no difficulty getting who he wants when the time comes. (I have long been a fan of Pierre Maguire and his Pittsburgh ties are intriguing but that's just my thought.) There are compelling arguments to make the change and it can be questioned if he should have re-upped Lindy in the first place. But if I am Pegula, I am not making the move. I would challenge Darcy to get a big time center once and for all and challenge Lindy to get more out of his roster, AHL quality or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I think you should change the title of the thread to "Lindy Ruff - on the lukewarm seat?" which for him, might actually feel hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkMeadow Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Most would likely agree that Lindy and Darcy are joined at the hip - you don't get rid of one and keep the other. The defining moment of their tenure, in my mind, is the team lack of response to the Lucic hit. I do not enjoy watching this team play right now. Like most Buffalo sports fans, all I ask for is my team to display heart and effort. Talent is also nice, but I'd take the first two qualities above all, and these Sabres show neither too much of the time. Despite these comments, I voted "I dunno" because I do not own the team, and I do not have any idea what Terry Pegula's threshold of frustration is. I do not personally have a knee jerk response to most of the Sabres past failures, and have enjoyed many great moments in following this team since 1970. However, this is the most frustrated I've been in all these years and I am hoping for major changes. This team needs a heart transplant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 The only thing TPegs has to avoid is getting the reputation as a meddling or impatient owner. He has the deepest pockets in the league and has made a sterling reputation for himself. He will have no difficulty getting who he wants when the time comes. (I have long been a fan of Pierre Maguire and his Pittsburgh ties are intriguing but that's just my thought.) There are compelling arguments to make the change and it can be questioned if he should have re-upped Lindy in the first place. But if I am Pegula, I am not making the move. I would challenge Darcy to get a big time center once and for all and challenge Lindy to get more out of his roster, AHL quality or not. Darcy got his big time center, Leino. Does Regier really deserve a second chance after that signing? Regier spent a lot of money this off-season and ate up a big portion of what would have been available next off-season. At this point the focus should be to limit any further damage done by Regier. As far as Ruff, this team regularly shows up to games not ready to compete. That's not a talent issue. That's not an issue caused by injuries. There is something in that locker room, IMO, it is caused by a lack of accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Good post. I'm in the I dunno category on firing Lindy, but that's because it is so frustrating watching this team. But Pegula is a business man, and his initial strategic plan was to keep Regier and Ruff, show the team love by splurging on them, and bring in new talent that hopefully would make a team that was the best in the league during the last 3 months of last season better and close to a Cup. We are now in the relatively early stages of that initial business plan, and so far the results do not look good. But this guy did not make $3b by panicking, and he will be patient and will not assume his initial plan is wrong based on 25 games--particularly given the injuries. He will take the rest of this year--at minimum-- to watch and learn and develop his own views on this team based on living through it. He will then counsel with Ted Black and his inner circle and decide if more drastic action is needed. But this guy did no make $3b by listening to fans. As Marv Levy said, listen to the fans and you'll soon be sitting with them in the stands. So for better or worse--and it might be worse--you are going to have to live with this team for the year. I do not think it unreasonable to believe that this team can still gel at some point with the new guys and some young guys and that the team you see now will be better come April. I would want about 4-1 odds on that proposition, however, as right now they look like the same old same old. I voted fired but I see reality wise where DD's post highly likely would be TPEGS approach. And yes both Regier and Lindy. I was also of the mind a new gm should have been brought in last year and Lindy possibly given this year to prove himself. Now it's clear to me both have been here to long. Regarding Lindy Ruff, i suppose the question to ask is name a player under his tutelage who has blossomed into a great player and if so , what was Lindy's role, what did he do? I see players like Derek Roy who come to Buffalo drafted with expectations they would become very good if not excellent players. In Roy's case he at this point in time his career represents a average player, who has the occasional good night and even more so occasional excellent night. Frankly I see this as representative of the team as they have been a solid mid ground team, teasing on some nights being very good and exceptions a excellent team on the precipice on being a great team , only to fall back to middling average. From the two captains to the present this management has not been able to identify leaders, (they needed to identify one of them,)or groom young drafted players to become leaders. There is lip service comments that the team has plenty of leaders, but the over extended amount to time team has been a middling one, says differently. Yes in my opinion its time for Lindy to go and Regier as well, the team has not got over the hump so to speak and is stuck in the middle. its possible they may even with some hot goal tending have a decent playoff run, but they stand a snow balls chance in hell of winning it all as currently constructed and players learning and growing at their craft as they are....imo The rub here of course is , its all well and fine to make above statements , but if Lindy and Regier are to go, who is going to replace them and how specially would do they need approach their respective jobs with what is available to them that at present the two current ones are failing at. Tough call really Lindy and Darcy have been at the helm of a team that was in peril of going under, and the management style of continuity has righted the ship to a unexceptional but solid team that at least makes playoffs, which for this markets needs has kept this team afloat and now apparently stable, a change and its entirely possible the team go in either direction. I say roll the dice, middling may work for owners but it sucks for most fans. (there are a number of lower tier coaching and management types ready to make jump, just as Hunter did, at some point they need take a at least educated risk....imo Great points from another long established middling team(TO)fan. No disrepect meant MB. This has been brought up here before and I agree 100% with the "what players has Lindy really gotten more out of or got better under him." Also the failure to identify or acquire true leaders for this team is another excellant point but may reflect more on Regier than coach. Pominville may finally be that player but some of the other's of the brat pack would not have been my choices for C's or A'a / team role models. I think you should change the title of the thread to "Lindy Ruff - on the lukewarm seat?" which for him, might actually feel hot. LMAO, sad but true and very funny, Nicely played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Darcy got his big time center, Leino. Does Regier really deserve a second chance after that signing? Regier spent a lot of money this off-season and ate up a big portion of what would have been available next off-season. At this point the focus should be to limit any further damage done by Regier. As far as Ruff, this team regularly shows up to games not ready to compete. That's not a talent issue. That's not an issue caused by injuries. There is something in that locker room, IMO, it is caused by a lack of accountability. Ding Ding Ding +2, batting 1000. The real problem now is; does Tpeg see it and how does he back away from his "ain't going anywhere statement and or prevent looking like the meddlesome owner. Truth be told I would take last years ATL tandem of Dudley and Ramsey in a heartbeat over the Regier Ruff show at this moment. And that also honors this teams history as they both played for Bflo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Nicely said! :thumbsup: You really need to post more often. I've pretty much become a lurker these days. Just don't have the energy to debate the same issues this team has had since 2002, anymore. 2005-2007 were a very nice break, but apart from that it's been the same old freakin' story since forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james duncan Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Darcy got his big time center, Leino. Does Regier really deserve a second chance after that signing? Regier spent a lot of money this off-season and ate up a big portion of what would have been available next off-season. At this point the focus should be to limit any further damage done by Regier. As far as Ruff, this team regularly shows up to games not ready to compete. That's not a talent issue. That's not an issue caused by injuries. There is something in that locker room, IMO, it is caused by a lack of accountability. I totally respect all of this. I am regularly turning games off before the end of the first period. And it goes to my comment questioning the wisdom of investing in Darcy and Lindy in the first place. That said, the fact is that he did bring them back. So, if I am him, I am staying the course til the end of the season. Personally, I have a shorter fuse with Darcy than I do with Lindy, but I think they are so intertwined now, you can't move one without moving both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james duncan Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Well, it's either that or retract his "Winning's not a goal, it's a belief" and "we're gonna win the Stanley Cup" statements. Maybe more than anyone on this board, whether I agree or disagree, I love your ability to make your point in 30 words or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Dudley Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I've pretty much become a lurker these days. Just don't have the energy to debate the same issues this team has had since 2002, anymore. 2005-2007 were a very nice break, but apart from that it's been the same old freakin' story since forever. Yep! Ground hog day wake up every morning to that Darcy and Lindy tune "I got you babe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I totally respect all of this. I am regularly turning games off before the end of the first period. And it goes to my comment questioning the wisdom of investing in Darcy and Lindy in the first place. That said, the fact is that he did bring them back. So, if I am him, I am staying the course til the end of the season. Personally, I have a shorter fuse with Darcy than I do with Lindy, but I think they are so intertwined now, you can't move one without moving both. I try, I just can't understand this logic. If you wait till the off-season to make moves than you lose a lot of time needed to convert to a new GM and coach. Why not make the changes now and go into the off-season running in the right direction. Give a new GM the remainder of this season to get rid of dead wait and take advantage of any opportunities that come around at the trade deadline. If you wait till the off season to hire a new GM and coach you are putting them behind the eight ball with others teams already having their off-season plans in motion. The same goes for coaching. Get your new coach in place and have him start implementing his systems and put his imprint on the team asap. That way the team again goes into the off-season focused with a new game plan firmly in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I try, I just can't understand this logic. If you wait till the off-season to make moves than you lose a lot of time needed to convert to a new GM and coach. Why not make the changes now and go into the off-season running in the right direction. Give a new GM the remainder of this season to get rid of dead wait and take advantage of any opportunities that come around at the trade deadline. If you wait till the off season to hire a new GM and coach you are putting them behind the eight ball with others teams already having their off-season plans in motion. The same goes for coaching. Get your new coach in place and have him start implementing his systems and put his imprint on the team asap. That way the team again goes into the off-season focused with a new game plan firmly in place. I agree with this line of thinking. As Kristian pointed out earlier, its sort of tiresome to continue to debate the same things since early 2000's. The team's issues have been similar for the past however many years. The only way that changes is from the top. Implementing all sorts of changes in the offseason gives us the same "they need 20+ games to get acclimated" problem as this year. Problem is that I believe that TPegs business accumen tells him to give his guys a set time period to prove their success and/or failure. Sound business men usually don't make rash decisions without analyzing all aspects of the issue at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james duncan Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I try, I just can't understand this logic. If you wait till the off-season to make moves than you lose a lot of time needed to convert to a new GM and coach. Why not make the changes now and go into the off-season running in the right direction. Give a new GM the remainder of this season to get rid of dead wait and take advantage of any opportunities that come around at the trade deadline. If you wait till the off season to hire a new GM and coach you are putting them behind the eight ball with others teams already having their off-season plans in motion. The same goes for coaching. Get your new coach in place and have him start implementing his systems and put his imprint on the team asap. That way the team again goes into the off-season focused with a new game plan firmly in place. I hear you. And the more of this I have to watch, the more I am inclined to agree. But to me the fact is, Pegula apparently did his due diligence and decided to keep them at the end of last season. THAT is when the change should have been made. I think he stays the course now. His first major decision was to keep Lindy. The longest tenured coach in the league. Now 25 games in, he pulls the plug? I don't think he does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbash Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 From the day TPegs bought the team, I felt like the grand experiment was to see how R&R do without the traditional low budget/low expectation restraints. IMHO you need to see it play out over an entire season, the current sampling is too small. Also, between the numerous free agent additions and MASH unit injuries, there hasn't been enough time to gel. If the results remain mediocre at year's end, it's going to be hard to keep them around, but too soon to get the broom out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 I agree with this line of thinking. As Kristian pointed out earlier, its sort of tiresome to continue to debate the same things since early 2000's. The team's issues have been similar for the past however many years. The only way that changes is from the top. Implementing all sorts of changes in the offseason gives us the same "they need 20+ games to get acclimated" problem as this year. Problem is that I believe that TPegs business accumen tells him to give his guys a set time period to prove their success and/or failure. Sound business men usually don't make rash decisions without analyzing all aspects of the issue at hand. I was led to believe that Tpegs was involved in the Leino signing as well as the Erhoff (sorry spelling?) signing so perhaps he does make rash decisions. Certainly keeping Regier , in hindsight, seems to show a masterful lack of judgement for such an astute businessman. Of course this offseason even I was applauding Regiers work with the blank checkbook but it appears I was mistaken and maybe just a little caught up in the excitement of new ownership and all that a 3 billion dollar man can bring. These decisions fall on Regier and Tpegs and to a lesser extent Ruff who was in on the process of talent evaluation. I believe that it may be time for Ruff to go even though I voted to keep him purely becuase of the injury situation. Give him a full deck to play with then see what results he can get out of this group. In my mind Regier is long past overdue a kick in the butt out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR HOLLIDAY Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Problem is that I believe that TPegs business accumen tells him to give his guys a set time period to prove their success and/or failure. Sound business men usually don't make rash decisions without analyzing all aspects of the issue at hand. That and making trades just for the sake of making trades won't help the team......If good trades can be made then by all means make them.......Does any of us actually know what we can get for some of our players???..........Obviously its been a frustrating past couple of weeks, but we aren't out of anything at this point and watching some of our young talent play well puts us is a stronger position to make trades and truly evaluate for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanbe Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 Ding Ding Ding +2, batting 1000. The real problem now is; does Tpeg see it and how does he back away from his "ain't going anywhere statement and or prevent looking like the meddlesome owner. Truth be told I would take last years ATL tandem of Dudley and Ramsey in a heartbeat over the Regier Ruff show at this moment. And that also honors this teams history as they both played for Bflo I have to agree with that. Look at Paterno at Pitt. Perfect example as someone that won titles (unlike Lindy) but needed to be pushed out. Lindy's reputation as the longest tenured coach MAY have management frightened to let him go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted December 3, 2011 Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 What a joke......... This thread is pathetic. The Buffalo Media is pathetic (Sullivan,Gleason,Harrington) and the Buffalo fans eat it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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