After The Whistle Goes OFF On The Entire Sabres Organization

[Sabres Fan in NS]

6 minutes ago, phil_soisson said:

You say, "Ownership has nothing to do with it.  Never has". Then, "KA should feel a lot more heat at some point than Granato". Where exactly is the. "heat" on KA supposed to come from? You've contradicted yourself.

Ownership has nothing to do with the actual building of the roster.

KA will start to feel the heat from ownership if his plan does not start to show real results.

[PASabreFan]

56 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

It's always about the roster.  Always has been and always will be.

Ownership has nothing to do with it.  Never has.

It's always about the roster.  The person in charge of setting the roster and the men charged with coaching the roster.

KA should feel a lot more heat at some point than Granato.

Terry has had a lot to do with it. This podcast even claims it was Terry who overruled Botterill on the Skinner contract. You are ignoring empirical evidence. Even if he didn't direct specific player signings (he admitted to at least one on the radio, FCS), he has consistently put his thumb on the scale re: how to build the team. Spending spree under Darcy (he criticized the plan Darcy came up with), extreme rebuild/tank late under Darcy (Darcy said TP would determine the extent of the rebuild), E3 during the pandemic. There's a reason TM said right after he was hired that his uncle had warned him... Remember, everyone has a boss.

24 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

I don't believe that JBOT did not want to sign Skinner.  It has proven to be a good signing - not counting the RaKru years, of course.

I don't agree that KA is a *yes* man.  I think he was charged with taking the team to the next level after all the failed rebuild attempts.  He learned in the Assistant role (or whatever he was before being GM) and has grown with the team.  He hired Granato to be the teacher to get the boys to be men as they grew up.

He's there precisely because he is a Yes man, and JB wasn't. And, my dear friend, are you really going to defend KA without knowing what he was doing before getting a GM job in the N H Fing L?!

Grown with the team? Hoo boy.

[thewookie1]

There had been mentions of Pegula overruling Botts with both Eichel and Skinner since Botts wanted to give short term piecemeal contracts to top players. 
 

KA may have been hired to be a “Yes Man” but he’s been our best GM out of the three oddly enough. Plus I actually side with the Pegulas in essence over ridding the franchise of bloat when COViD shut everything down. I wouldn’t have fired Taylor but streamlining the staff made sense and Botts outright refusing to obey his boss was legitimate means for dismissal. 
 

Of our GMs we have had 

Murray - overly aggressive, lacked interpersonal skills for the team’s roster, wore blinders in terms of players he wanted to acquire

Botts - overly cautious with locking in best players, baffling trade valuations

Adams - overly cautious as a whole, likely overly receptive to ownership’s ideas

 

Ironically enough in someways, if you change their order, it likely works out better 

Adams is very good at asset compiling as well as finding players who are a good locker room presence 

Murray was very deliberate but lacked a strong enough personality core to absorb the personalities he brought in

Botts was trained under a maintain playoff viability situation and thus worked trades akin to a common playoff contender on the back end of their prime.

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

It's always about the roster.  Always has been and always will be.

Ownership has nothing to do with it.  Never has.

It's always about the roster.  The person in charge of setting the roster and the men charged with coaching the roster.

KA should feel a lot more heat at some point than Granato.

Can't agree with this.  Owner's hire the GM (or head of Hockey Operation on some teams).  Adams should feel more heat than DG, but it will not work that way because Adams is carrying out his bosses wishes.  The roster, when healthy is still a handful of players away, but not that bad.  

It always starts with the owner. He hired marginally qualified and untested GMs three times in a row.  The owner has over-spent at times, and has under-spent at times.   The owner fired coaches that he wanted here.   The owner is doing nothing to fix the facility or improve the game day experience, he doesn't show up, he doesn't know how bad his product is.  The owner has sole possession of the worst record in the history of the NHL.  He can and should rightfully take the blame.  

No real NHL GM would have agreed with Pegula's idiotic and silly 3 E's edict.   He was worried about paper losses to his fortune, and his families lifestyle on their Yacht during Covid --- he put this team on another bad path.  

Which is why Boterill left and Adams got his chance- as long as Adams carries out this slow roll, stay under the cap, spend money on people that want to be here, the someday over the rainbow plan.    This rebuild is about cost control for the next TBD years  - probably at least until the damm football stadium is built.  

How many teams in the East have already rebuilt or re-tooled since pre-Covid --- Devils, Isles, Panthers, Rangers.  How many are passing us this season?  Detroit, Montreal, and Philly  are doing that right now.   We are closer to Ottawa and Columbus than we are to the aging Tampa, Washington and Pittsburgh teams - all of which are teams we were supposed to pass soon.  

We are closer to a bottom 5 finish than we are to the playoffs right now.   Tons of injuries are not helping.   We can draft another highly acclaimed 18 year old  this off season and add him to our stable of shiny new toys.  Meanwhile the young guys we already have cannot play their game because they are getting no  support.  

It is hard to do on TV, but watch the play away from the puck.  Carolina and Preds just physically pounded the crap out of this team.   Partly  because this team stands around to much (that is coaching).   I expect that in our next 3 games we will see the physical side of Detroit, Boston, and Montreal.  

Either the players get together and decide that enough is enough, or another season is lost.  That will be hard to do with Tuch, Greenway and Girgs out and replaced by what - Biro and Rosen?  There will be no help from above until maybe the deadline, and it wont matter by then unless the players fix it themselves.   We will be Sellers at the deadline - which might be good for someday, someday over the rainbow.  

The root cause of the Buffalo Sabres being a terrible franchise is all on the Owner.  100%.  

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Pimlach

[PromoTheRobot]

13 hours ago, sabremike said:

What an epic and brutal takedown of this entire shitshow of an organization.

The day Petey has been waiting for. I'm sure he needed a couple of wet wipes afterwards.

[Mango]

I am listening to this podcast now and I am fairly confident Rivet and Peters are regulars on this board. Ha. 

With all the talk about about, FA's, trades, and roster composition I am curious how much blame falls on pro scouting as well as the GM. 

Also, it is weird to me that there is another director level position in this FO who is a Buffalo guy. Crowe went to St. Joe's. He has been around hockey forever, but it is weird to me that we have two home grown guys sitting right behind the GM. The odds seem so low. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Mango

[Pimlach]

13 hours ago, sabremike said:

What an epic and brutal takedown of this entire shitshow of an organization.

I just listened.  Clearly, Peters wanted to vent about the organ-eye-zation and he did. 

The most informing stuff to me was their comments on the coaching staff.  They are very negative on what this staff can bring to the players and on the game day coaching.  Specifically Ellis running the power play, and the overall acceptance by the head coach as to what is happening.  

One thing that bothered me, but is certainly a reality,  was when they talked about the President's Trophy team of 06-07.  Rivet told Peters that even back  then, players did not want to go to Buffalo.   It may have been true, but to a much lesser extent than it  is now.  Any veteran that wants to win now and has a NMC is not going to agree to be traded to Buffalo, so we have to understand that Adams might have a major constraint to deal with.  

They mostly talk about the young guys not being supported and the overall softness of the team. 

They have no use for Skinner either and feel that his scoring does not overcome the rest of his game.  I tend to disagree,  I see is Skinner is one of the few feisty players and he has improved his two-way game although he does get into the lazy doldrums - the entire team does.    

Rivet wants a veteran partner for Power that will help him and teach him.  Power's soft play was a big subject.  

The fact that Benson is one of their best forwards right now was viewed as a negative reflection on the rest of them.  

The Krebs v. Aho situation was brought up by Rivet.  Krebs may not have known that Aho was going after him. He should have obliged him and beat the tar  out of him,  but Rivet stated that a player like Aho knows he is protected, while Krebs is on his own.   McCarron was gunning for Krebs on several shift, that would not be a good match up (see Cozens vs Hathaway).  

Peters says that fighting is trending up again in the NHL, not sure he is correct, however it appears that more teams are going with one big physical line that can and will engage in that part of the game.  

Overall it sounded like SabresSpace - maybe @PerreaultForever was filling in for Rivet that day?  

Dahlin was the only positive.  Highly skilled, he brings it every game.  

 

[Pimlach]

21 minutes ago, Mango said:

I am listening to this podcast now and I am fairly confident Rivet and Peters are regulars on this board. Ha. 

With all the talk about about, FA's, trades, and roster composition I am curious how much blame falls on pro scouting as well as the GM. 

Also, it is weird to me that there is another director level position in this FO who is a Buffalo guy. Crowe went to St. Joe's. He has been around hockey forever, but it is weird to me that we have to home grown guys sitting right behind the GM. The odds seem so low. 

I think I just met that guy at a Jr. Sabres game this year.   It sure looks like him, my cousin told me he was a scouting director. 

Seemed like a nice guy.  An easy hire for Adams, local, wants to be there, wants to help, yada yada ... 

Pro Scouting is underutilized.  They found Jost, ok.   He advises on trades, but Adams seem to have trouble making them happen - either teams want too much or the player won't come here.   That is a real barrier that supports Adams approach of build from within.  

[PASabreFan]

Anywho it was fun and cathartic. Refreshing after the gruel we are force fed by Duff, Lysowski et al.

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I think I just met that guy at a Jr. Sabres game this year.   It sure looks like him, my cousin told me he was a scouting director. 

Seemed like a nice guy.  An easy hire for Adams, local, wants to be there, wants to help, yada yada ... 

Pro Scouting is underutilized.  They found Jost, ok.   He advises on trades, but Adams seem to have trouble making them happen - either teams want too much or the player won't come here.   That is a real barrier that supports Adams approach of build from within.  

He has been part of the org for years. Kind of like Forton, just sort of kicked around Buffalo hockey for a while, did some work in juniors as a player and a scout, became a road warrior for the Sabres scouting dept, and worked his way up. 

Not hating on the guy. Good dude. But odd for him and Forton to both hold their respective roles. 

Here is something crazy, Forton played hockey and soccer at UB. Didn't do much of anything in hockey, took over as the coach for UB soccer for 6 years, then was a volunteer assistant at Niagara. Our own little Ralph Krueger. 

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Anywho it was fun and cathartic. Refreshing after the gruel we are force fed by Duff, Lysowski et al.

Peters admitted that they had guidelines on what he could say.  LOL 

I can imagine he was a handful for management.  

[matter2003]

2 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

It's always about the roster.  Always has been and always will be.

Ownership has nothing to do with it.  Never has.

It's always about the roster.  The person in charge of setting the roster and the men charged with coaching the roster.

KA should feel a lot more heat at some point than Granato.

Ownership has everything to do with it.  

Just ask the New York Knicks under James Dolan and the Washington Redskins/Football Team/Commanders under Dan Snyder.  

Owners can meddle in everything from who gets a big contract, to who is on the team, to who plays in games, how much time coaches/GMs get to turn things around(aka they want IMMEDIATE RESULTS even when there is no basis in reality to expect them), to anything else you can think of and often times DO.

You make the very very wrong assumption that owners simply hire a person to do a job and then remove themselves from day to day operations.  On good teams that happens, on bad teams it doesn't many times and is the reason why their teams never see much success.

Edited December 5, 2023 by matter2003

[GASabresIUFAN]

I finally figured out what “wants to be here” really means.

On the Sabres it means players who want get along, like to hang out together and who don’t care about losing as long as their huge checks clear.

[PASabreFan]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

I finally figured out what “wants to be here” really means.

On the Sabres it means players who want get along, like to hang out together and who don’t care about losing as long as their huge checks clear.

[Crusader1969]

2 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

It's always about the roster.  Always has been and always will be.

Ownership has nothing to do with it.  Never has.

It's always about the roster.  The person in charge of setting the roster and the men charged with coaching the roster.

KA should feel a lot more heat at some point than Granato.

Totally agree.  This is on KA more than Granato but I don't think KA feels any heat at all    
GMKA shouldn't leave his office till a trade that immediately improves their roster is completed    

 

[Crusader1969]

How easy would it have been for KA to build a 4th line?  He had both Girgs and KO in expiring contracts.  Could have easily let them both go and built a 4th line that would have given the team an identity they sorely miss.   
Girgs is ok but KO should have been brought back at no better than the 13th forward.   His mind is willing but the foot speed just isn't there to be a consistent forechecker. 
I've said this before but this season was lost in the offseason 

EJ is good to bring in as the 6th / 7th dman vet presence

Warning signs should have been flashing when Clifton was sent to the press box during the playoffs as a healthy scratch   He was known  as a heavy hitter but we just aren't seeing it.  all we are getting is glaring poor defensive play.  

I hate reading long posts so I'll end it by saying 

GET TO WORK ADAMS!!!
 

 

[TheAud]

Not much of an Adams fan, and certainly not Granato, at this point. 

But if Rivet and Peters don't like them, it sort of makes me want to like them a bit. Because those guys are a**hats. 

[Rhyno716]

GMKA has done a good job collecting talent. That was the easy part. Unfortunately he's shown no evidence that he knows how to build a team with all the assets he acquired. The hard part is making the tough decisions which should have started last summer and he's failed so far.  Even if all these prospects pan out (and they probably won't) there's no room for everybody. They need to package some of these prospects for solid role players because free agency won't help. Faceoffs anyone? But I heard they don't matter.

 

As for coaching when I keep seeing the same mistakes over and over again with no accountability something needs to change. There's a lack of compete, identity and structure. And because of that I feel like they go into every game not knowing what they are and what they want to be and that's going to keep holding them back.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Rhyno716

[Second Line Center]

3 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

All this. Neither of these two are winning awards for debate and logic reasoning, however there is a segment where they lay out how so many hires of Head Coaches, assistant coaches, GMs and other front office are/were unqualified.  
 

 

They skipped Bylsma.  Which makes this all the more perplexing - it isn’t just inexperienced coaches    

 

 

3 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

 

 

I’ve never listened to the podcast prior to last night but listened to the show on WGR a few times before. Perhaps an element of sour grapes in being let go by the organization, but they were brutally honest about their assessment of the assistant coaches.  Peter’s asks what makes Matt Ellis qualified to run the Sabres Power Play. Something written many times on this board. But it feels different coming from former players.  Someone tell the Uber drivers to get their recording devices out in cities where Buffalo is playing road games so we can hear from Tuch or Dahlin. 

 Also good comments about the forward line construction and the lack of change in roster.  Peter’s made a joke about more turnover in a 12U team.  So true.  Most teams have at least 3-4 new Forwards YoY, and they brought back the same team.  Olofsson included.  Again they were brutally honest that this was a KA failure.  You have too many skilled forwards that can’t forecheck. I was ambivalent about the two UFA Dmen Adams signed but right now it look like a fail.  And while I love the post game comments from Johnson and not questioning the leadership skills of EJ, it seems like a big overpay on Adams behalf to get someone/anyone with experience in the locker room.  Almost desperate.

 

We need almost a whole new bottom 6.  
 

Our current group of forwards 4-9 should be in the bottom 6.   Definitely good enough but a better top group pushes them down.  

[inkman]

24 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

How easy would it have been for KA to build a 4th line?  He had both Girgs and KO in expiring contracts.  Could have easily let them both go and built a 4th line that would have given the team an identity they sorely miss.   
Girgs is ok but KO should have been brought back at no better than the 13th forward.   His mind is willing but the foot speed just isn't there to be a consistent forechecker. 
I've said this before but this season was lost in the offseason 

EJ is good to bring in as the 6th / 7th dman vet presence

Warning signs should have been flashing when Clifton was sent to the press box during the playoffs as a healthy scratch   He was known  as a heavy hitter but we just aren't seeing it.  all we are getting is glaring poor defensive play.  

I hate reading long posts so I'll end it by saying 

GET TO WORK ADAMS!!!
 

 

Last season Clifton hit opponents at 2.2 hits per game.  This season he’s at 1.9.  Not exactly a huge difference.  Now his defensive play hasn’t been great but he’s also not accustomed to playing with forwards who don’t understand the basic concepts of team defense. 

[Getpucksdeep]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

I just listened.  Clearly, Peters wanted to vent about the organ-eye-zation and he did. 

The most informing stuff to me was their comments on the coaching staff.  They are very negative on what this staff can bring to the players and on the game day coaching.  Specifically Ellis running the power play, and the overall acceptance by the head coach as to what is happening.  

One thing that bothered me, but is certainly a reality,  was when they talked about the President's Trophy team of 06-07.  Rivet told Peters that even back  then, players did not want to go to Buffalo.   It may have been true, but to a much lesser extent than it  is now.  Any veteran that wants to win now and has a NMC is not going to agree to be traded to Buffalo, so we have to understand that Adams might have a major constraint to deal with.  

They mostly talk about the young guys not being supported and the overall softness of the team. 

They have no use for Skinner either and feel that his scoring does not overcome the rest of his game.  I tend to disagree,  I see is Skinner is one of the few feisty players and he has improved his two-way game although he does get into the lazy doldrums - the entire team does.    

Rivet wants a veteran partner for Power that will help him and teach him.  Power's soft play was a big subject.  

The fact that Benson is one of their best forwards right now was viewed as a negative reflection on the rest of them.  

The Krebs v. Aho situation was brought up by Rivet.  Krebs may not have known that Aho was going after him. He should have obliged him and beat the tar  out of him,  but Rivet stated that a player like Aho knows he is protected, while Krebs is on his own.   McCarron was gunning for Krebs on several shift, that would not be a good match up (see Cozens vs Hathaway).  

Peters says that fighting is trending up again in the NHL, not sure he is correct, however it appears that more teams are going with one big physical line that can and will engage in that part of the game.  

Overall it sounded like SabresSpace - maybe @PerreaultForever was filling in for Rivet that day?  

Dahlin was the only positive.  Highly skilled, he brings it every game.  

 

I want to fight you on skinner. I agree when we have possession low in opponents zone he is valuable.  The problem is everything else.  He is constantly turning the puck over with low probability passes into the heart of the D.  It's ***** every kid would be benched for in travel / high school etc.  it's why RK did him the way he did and it's why Carolina bailed on him. If I was his teammate I would hate him.  And so I assume many do.  (Ok maybe they like him as a funny guy between stalls but they know they have to win in spite of him). Just play the game the right way as they say which means you take care of the gd puck.  

[Marvin]

13 minutes ago, Rhyno716 said:

GMKA has done a good job collecting talent. That was the easy part. Unfortunately he's shown no evidence that he knows how to build a team with all the assets he acquired. The hard part is making the tough decisions which should have started last summer and he's failed so far.  Even if all these prospects pan out (and they probably won't) there's no room for everybody. They need to package some of these prospects for solid role players because free agency won't help. Faceoffs anyone? But I heard they don't matter.

 

As for coaching when I keep seeing the same mistakes over and over again with no accountability something needs to change. There's a lack of compete, identity or structure. And because of that I feel like they go into every game not knowing what they are and what they want to be and that's going to keep holding them back.

Welcome to the board!

Now, GMKA has to do the hard part: not falling in love with his talent so that he can make intelligent changes to the roster and the prospect pipeline.  For the moment, he seems far too enamoured with it.

[mjd1001]

25 minutes ago, inkman said:

Last season Clifton hit opponents at 2.2 hits per game.  This season he’s at 1.9.  Not exactly a huge difference.  Now his defensive play hasn’t been great but he’s also not accustomed to playing with forwards who don’t understand the basic concepts of team defense. 

Agreed.  These forwards are awful, not helping out the D and in many cases making them look worse than they actually are.

Look at the 2nd (game winning goal) against Nashville last game, thePuck DOES go through Jokiharju, but in the 3-4 seconds before the goal is scored:

-Puck on far boards, Benson really doesn't do much but wave his stick at the D-man who directs the puck to the center of the ice

-Puck goes right to Cozens, I think its actually on his stick in front of the Buffalo net, but he loses it.

-about 1 second later, Cozens has the puck on his stick again in front of the Buffalo net, has it easily poked away by a Nashville player

-Goes to another Nashville player, Cozens waves his stick at him, isn't able to knock the puck away, and it eventually goes to the shooter.

When the shot is taken, both Buffalo D-mean are at least where they should be.  Benson could have impacted the puck on the boards a bit more and he didn't. Cozens had the puck on his stick 2 times and a 3rd time could have knocked it away (all within about a 2-3 second period) and failed in all 3 attempts. Peterka? kinda just gliding around a few feet inside the blue line, more stick waving.

Cozens is a skating disaster is his own zone this year, and the wingers don't do much but glide around and wave their sticks.  Just because you are a "forward" and not a "defenseman" doesn't mean when your team is playing in your own zone you can just kinda do whatever you want...but to many of these forwards it sure seems like it.

Edited December 5, 2023 by mjd1001

[Quint]

I don't think the owner is getting the message. As things are, the crowds who come to the home games are dead. The arena is dead. But what if there was a wholesale boycott so they'd be playing in front of No Fans? I know it would bum the players out. But the owner needs to get the message and that message is: Get out.

[pi2000]

Peters and Rivet are old school meatheads.   

The game is much different now than when they played.

Their power play coach take is laughable.   

Just because you never quarterbacked a power play doesn't exclude you from coaching one.

They're just looking for clicks with their over the top takes.    

Entertaining tho haha.