We need to talk about Zach Benson making the team this year, 2023

[tom webster]

12 minutes ago, ... said:

Well, I didn't go into this thinking about it that way, but it's probably a likely conclusion. I think a kid at 18 isn't generally developed enough physically - and I want to add emotionally - to handle playing a sport like hockey with fully developed men for 8-9 months of the year. There would obviously be exceptions from time to time, but I think the starting point should be, as DG says in the article you quoted, can they handle the physical demands of the schedule...and I would add playing a physical sport with grown men.

Just a note, too, on the emotional/mental part: after listening to a lot former players in podcasts, I think that if mental health isn't accounted for, a lot of these guys wind up damaged.

They wind up damaged because no one ever told them they weren’t good enough early enough or they didn’t put in the effort needed. Guys like Tage and Casey end up fine because they were always good enough, it just takes certain individuals longer to develop and mature. Guys like Girgerenko and Luke Adam were never going to be good enough no matter what development path you took. Sports teams are starting to realize that they are wasting some prime years by adhering to old school development paths.

[Flashsabre]

30 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I know this is a huge leap but watching his junior highlight videos and a few clips at the NHL development/prospect/preseason level, I see a lot of things in him I haven’t seen since Gretzky.

The IQ, knowing where to be and where the puck should be, seeing eye passes and stealing pucks from stronger guys.

I don’t expect him to be the GOAT but he has some great hockey sense and skill that doesn’t come around very often.

He has elite instincts that the great players do. He reads the play in advance and anticipates where the puck is going to be and which read the player with the puck will make. That is why he has so many takeaways and it looks like the puck always follows him around the ice. When he has the puck he knows which read to make and how long to hold the puck and the right moment to distribute it to a teammate. That why people say he makes any line better and he makes his teammates better because he gets them the puck at the right time in the right spot.

If you watched his junior highlights you will notice they look exactly the same as his two exhibition game highlights. He has easily translated his game up a level even though he is not playing full NHL teams yet.

I think he gets the 9 game tryout and then they go from there.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I think he is the next Nikita Kucherov. But I also think he looks like he is all of 12 or 13 years old now. 

 

Put him back in the oven and let him cook. 

Don't let his pimples and babyface fool you. He's got the smarts and the mental makeup to play in this league. Is he physically mature enough to handle the rigors of a long and grinding NHL season? I'm not sure. Right now, based on his play he seems like a player who is putting himself in a position to at the minimum start the season off on an introductory stint. 

[Mango]

I think maybe he gets a few games early to get a feel for playing with grown men at that size, speed, and intensity. Then sent back to juniors with a check list of things to improve upon and maybe hit the weight room. Then we see him again later in the season. 

[...]

40 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This is like going to a restaurant and being mad they serve food.

See, this is another slippery slope. If you want to use the restaurant analogy, my argument is:

On my way into the restaurant I notice a lot of cat carcasses. I then wonder where the restaurant is getting their meat from while everyone else in there says forget about that; the food is cheap and good.

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And I agree with all of this in terms of precepts.

The one thing you haven’t tied in for me is why Zach Benson is clearly at risk here and others might not be.

18-year-olds going off on their own to live as adults is a fact of life.

Benson has been living away from his family, travelling around the country, playing against significantly bigger and stronger opponents since he was 15.

He has been preparing to make this step, literally, for years.

What criteria should be used to make that determination who is ready and who is not?

And 18 yo's being officially "adults" (except when it comes to being allowed to buy an alcholic beverage and a few other items) is also a fact of life.  And is THE reason that when Ken Linesman brought suit the NHL dropped the entry draft from drafting 20 yo's to drafting 18 yo's.

They aren't going to be able to get that genie back in the bottle.

Again, we are on the same page, IF he is good enough to beat out the rest of the challengers for that 9th spot in the top 9 he stays up.  If he isn't, he doesn't.  But the more we watch of him, the less likely it seems he won't win that competition.

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

No.  Yes.  Yes.

I think he has the raw talent to make the team now.  He would have if this was 2016 or 2017.

He does not need *seasoning* in the WHL.  He needs to bulk up and mature more into a *man body*.  He is only 18, right?

Too bad he can't go to the AHL.

If the Sabres feel he is ready then I think they will also have decided to trade VO - probably for a #7 Dman, maybe even a top 6 if the right dance partner emerges.  That does not seem to follow the *plan*, but maybe KA feels it's time to alter the plan a bit.

I actually think the great play of Levi may help make up the Sabres mind on Benson.  Levi is the real deal.  So, why not put in Benson and trade VO for an upgrade on D - a big nasty stay at home type #6.

VO was hard to trade because of his contract and because he was a 28 goal scorer (21 at even strength) with a -23.    Teams are going to low ball Adams because they know he has to make room for his stockpile of talent.  With Quinn out, VO is more valuable than a D6/7 right now, especially with Ryan Johnson looking good and fitting in with the team.  

VO could be a trade deadline move when teams get desperate for a finisher and PP help.  By then Quinn will be back and we know more about the readiness of guys like Rousek, Savoie, Biro, Benson, Rosen, etc... 

Adams is never in a hurry when it comes to player trades.  

Edited September 27, 2023 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

25 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And 18 yo's being officially "adults" (except when it comes to being allowed to buy an alcholic beverage and a few other items) is also a fact of life.  And is THE reason that when Ken Linesman brought suit the NHL dropped the entry draft from drafting 20 yo's to drafting 18 yo's.

They aren't going to be able to get that genie back in the bottle.

Again, we are on the same page, IF he is good enough to beat out the rest of the challengers for that 9th spot in the top 9 he stays up.  If he isn't, he doesn't.  But the more we watch of him, the less likely it seems he won't win that competition.

Some people have preconceived notions based on what is usually the right approach to take. However, as you are stating, if one drops the preconceived notions and watch the performances, his play suggests that he is capable of playing in this league. Can he do it throughout a long and grinding season? I don't know. What I do know is that based on his play he has earned the right to start the season in Buffalo for at least a designated stint. If he demonstrates that he can handle the rigors of NHL play and be an asset to the team, then why not? This youngster is competing hard; so far, he has earned the right to make the roster. That's what competition is all about!

[...]

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And I agree with all of this in terms of precepts.

The one thing you haven’t tied in for me is why Zach Benson is clearly at risk here and others might not be.

18-year-olds going off on their own to live as adults is a fact of life.

Benson has been living away from his family, travelling around the country, playing against significantly bigger and stronger opponents since he was 15.

He has been preparing to make this step, literally, for years.

What criteria should be used to make that determination who is ready and who is not?

Revisit the post you quoted. You have it backwards. I am saying all 18 years olds should be considered at risk. The question then becomes "why is Benson the exception?"

Benson has done well so far, although I have witnessed him getting moved off the puck with some ease. But, as stated at the beginning of the thread, these are exhibition games. We are not seeing the full force of the opposing team bearing down on Benson for every one of his shifts. The opposition will try and take advantage of him being young and inexperienced. Haven't you seen enough new players get hurt over the years to at least give you pause?

That's where the 9 game stint makes sense. It's still early in the season where teams aren't settled into the grind and are building momentum toward January/February slug fests. It's the safest time for him to be out there and see how he manages.

Surely you're not implying when you say an "18-year-olds going off on their own to live as adults is a fact of life" means the majority of 18 year old are getting jobs at the factory with plans to work toward their pension.

1. Most 18 year olds who do go off to live their own lives aren't going into an exceptionally demanding pro sport. How many 18 year NFL players are there?
2. Most 18 year olds "going off on their own" are heading to college which is a highly controlled and structured environment where they typically don't subject their bodies to abuse. They also tend to "go home" for vacation periods and the summers.
3. In 2023, an 18 year old going off completely, totally, and utterly on their own is an outlier and not the norm.

Of course Benson et al have been preparing all their lives for this step in their careers. It doesn't mean it's their time when they get their first sniff. Again, the adults should be the adults.

I think the NHL and the teams have plenty of data by now to make a determination on a case-by-case basis on how a player should proceed.

[Mango]

Last night was exciting. But after a full day I think the kid gets a few call ups, but likely isn't ready for an 82 game season. I am curious how he looks when guys start playing a much more physical game as the preseason progresses. He was good tonight, but it will be different when other full grown men are fighting for the back end of their careers and to stay on a roster to provide for their families. 

The real bummer is the rules about the AHL, not necessarily whether he makes the Sabres or not. He should be playing in Rochester. 

[bg17]

10 minutes ago, ... said:

Haven't you seen enough new players get hurt over the years to at least give you pause?

That's where the 9 game stint makes sense. It's still early in the season where teams aren't settled into the grind and are building momentum toward January/February slug fests. It's the safest time for him to be out there and see how he manages.

How many “new players” get hurt in comparison to established players? Any data at all?

The safest time to be out there? Teams aren’t giving their all until later? Again, any data available re: the safest time to play? 

 

[K-9]

38 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

VO was hard to trade because of his contract and because he was a 28 goal scorer (21 at even strength) with a -23.    Teams are going to low ball Adams because they know he has to make room for his stockpile of talent.  With Quinn out VO is more valuable than a D6/7 right now, especially with Ryan Johnson looking good and fitting in with the team.  

VO could be a trade deadline move when teams get desperate for a finisher and PP help.  By then Quinn will be back and we know more about the readiness of guys like Rousek, Savoie, Biro, Benson, Rosen, etc... 

Adams is never in a hurry when it comes to player trades.  

Yep. VO’s atrocious D play and weakness along the boards is on video for the entire league to see. 

[RochesterExpat]

I need to see more games from him, but right now it's "no, no, leaning-to-yes" from me.

There is a more practical side that I haven't seen addressed by anyone else here which is the cap situation. If Benson's contract slides this season, him (and Savoie assuming Savoie makes the team) are up for new contracts when Skinner comes off the books. If Benson plays this season, his next contract will come with Skinner still hitting the cap and when Alex Tuch will need a new contract. If Kulich plays in Rochester this season, his contract will slide again which means he'd also be due at the same time as Benson and Savoie. Otherwise, if Kulich hits 10 games, he'll also be up for a new contract with Tuch. 

Yes, I know Okposo, Girgs, and VO will be off the books, but we still need to extend Dahlin, Power, Mitts and others the year after (Levi, Quinn, JJP).

Just some food for thought.

[That Aud Smell]

i just caught the team's PR video about the young man. worth a watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxqzMT5OqnA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

and it's starting to dawn on me: they have given him #9. it is clearly his. none of that nascar number b.s. from ripper, eh, @PASabreFan?

and you hear the story about his very adaptable, hard scrabble upbringing. dude was a carny, basically. have we discussed that here? it rings a bell now that i type it.

it seems like something might be afoot here.

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, tom webster said:

If the Sabres are serious about this being the year, then the best players make the team regardless of status. It’s really that simple, at least for me.

Ok, so is he good enough to make the team better?  That is still the debate.  Lets see if VO can perform with Cozens tonight.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

23 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

i just caught the team's PR video about the young man. worth a watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxqzMT5OqnA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

and it's starting to dawn on me: they have given him #9. it is clearly his. none of that nascar number b.s. from ripper, eh, @PASabreFan?

and you hear the story about his very adaptable, hard scrabble upbringing. dude was a carny, basically. have we discussed that here? it rings a bell now that i type it.

it seems like something might be afoot here.

I think you may be on to something here.

Also, I am almost certain that it was @Eleven that had all the Nascar style numbers chafe his loins.  He is not the only one with chafed loins, eh !!

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, ... said:

See, this is another slippery slope. If you want to use the restaurant analogy, my argument is:

On my way into the restaurant I notice a lot of cat carcasses. I then wonder where the restaurant is getting their meat from while everyone else in there says forget about that; the food is cheap and good.

But you haven't shown me any cats, you've just told me they exist. Eichel and Gerbe were both well over 18 when they were injured.

[Crusader1969]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

His WHL team would have to miss the playoffs for that. 

keep both Savoie and Benson around for 9 games each.  get them till December, Team Canada Training Camp and then World Juniors. maybe with the turmoil with their WHL team, missing isn' impossible...though im sure both would be traded to better teams, if that was the case

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, ... said:

Revisit the post you quoted. You have it backwards. I am saying all 18 years olds should be considered at risk. The question then becomes "why is Benson the exception?"

Benson has done well so far, although I have witnessed him getting moved off the puck with some ease. But, as stated at the beginning of the thread, these are exhibition games. We are not seeing the full force of the opposing team bearing down on Benson for every one of his shifts. The opposition will try and take advantage of him being young and inexperienced. Haven't you seen enough new players get hurt over the years to at least give you pause?

That's where the 9 game stint makes sense. It's still early in the season where teams aren't settled into the grind and are building momentum toward January/February slug fests. It's the safest time for him to be out there and see how he manages.

Surely you're not implying when you say an "18-year-olds going off on their own to live as adults is a fact of life" means the majority of 18 year old are getting jobs at the factory with plans to work toward their pension.

1. Most 18 year olds who do go off to live their own lives aren't going into an exceptionally demanding pro sport. How many 18 year NFL players are there?
2. Most 18 year olds "going off on their own" are heading to college which is a highly controlled and structured environment where they typically don't subject their bodies to abuse. They also tend to "go home" for vacation periods and the summers.
3. In 2023, an 18 year old going off completely, totally, and utterly on their own is an outlier and not the norm.

Of course Benson et al have been preparing all their lives for this step in their careers. It doesn't mean it's their time when they get their first sniff. Again, the adults should be the adults.

I think the NHL and the teams have plenty of data by now to make a determination on a case-by-case basis on how a player should proceed.

I’m implying that many 18-year-olds can and do chart their own paths even into such risky, demanding vocations as forestry, fighting wildfires and the military (I also think that a lot of what you posit is only reflective of those in positions of privilege, but that’s not a discussion for this thread).

Keeping it strictly to hockey and the discussion at hand, I think the structure and support system an NHL team is capable of putting in place for its $3 million asset is far superior to what one would find at most colleges.

And I’d argue that even in the “prove the exception” scenario that you think should be the base point, that collecting data to make a determination on a case-by-case basis on how Benson should proceed is exactly what the Sabres are doing and a process I support.

[PASabreFan]

51 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

i just caught the team's PR video about the young man. worth a watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxqzMT5OqnA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

and it's starting to dawn on me: they have given him #9. it is clearly his. none of that nascar number b.s. from ripper, eh, @PASabreFan?

and you hear the story about his very adaptable, hard scrabble upbringing. dude was a carny, basically. have we discussed that here? it rings a bell now that i type it.

it seems like something might be afoot here.

tas doing his best

e e

cummings impress

ion

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Ok, so is he good enough to make the team better?  That is still the debate.  Lets see if VO can perform with Cozens tonight.  

Ultimately that’s the question.  Can he make a playoff contending team better this season?  

[Curt]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

And 18 yo's being officially "adults" (except when it comes to being allowed to buy an alcholic beverage and a few other items) is also a fact of life.  And is THE reason that when Ken Linesman brought suit the NHL dropped the entry draft from drafting 20 yo's to drafting 18 yo's.

They aren't going to be able to get that genie back in the bottle.

Again, we are on the same page, IF he is good enough to beat out the rest of the challengers for that 9th spot in the top 9 he stays up.  If he isn't, he doesn't.  But the more we watch of him, the less likely it seems he won't win that competition.

Interestingly, the NBA did.  In the past they could draft players in their high school graduation year.  Now they have changed it to one year after their high school graduation year.

[Flashsabre]

44 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Ultimately that’s the question.  Can he make a playoff contending team better this season?  

I honestly think he can. His best spot in the lineup is where he is now: with Tage and Skinner. That line will produce with him on it. And Benson is so good defensively it helps them be more well rounded.

It then moves Tuch to a line with Mitts and say Greenway. That’s a very solid line. Then you have JJ Cozens Quinn (when healthy)

That is a very solid top 9 with real balance.

I don’t know if he makes it but he is an outlier type talent and I wouldn’t be shocked if he did.

[GASabresIUFAN]

24 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

And Benson is so good defensively it helps them be more well rounded.

Based on what?  He has played 2 pre-season games against Ahlers, Prospects and a couple of NHLers.  

Edited September 27, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

29 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Based on what?  He has played 2 pre-season games against Ahlers, Prospects and a couple of NHLers.  

He was one of the best defensive players in the whl if I remember right.