Starting goaltending: what do we really think about the situation in the crease?

[dudacek]

Seeing a lot of talk around this issue, curious to know what the consensus is.

I’m going to post a similar thread for the backup position.

Edited July 2, 2023 by dudacek

[SwampD]

I haven’t given up on UPL yet.

[LabattBlue]

Unsure, no & very little.  

[Taro T]

The same answers as in the other thread.  Yes, yes, and would look at a 1st & either a 2nd or a prospect or an Olofsson to get one.

[PerreaultForever]

My feeling is simple. If the goaltending is what it is now we do not make the playoffs this year UNLESS Levi is a rookie phenom. I doubt he is. I expect at least one stretch, maybe two, where we might think he's a phenom. I expect some very good moments. Maybe some great games but also some inconsistency and possibly even a slump or two. 

If we add a good goalie to pair with him playoffs are a real possibility and then who knows how far we can go in the future. 

We're still not built for the playoffs and lack in our defensive game and toughness but with very good goaltending and our potential offense, making the playoffs is possible. Difficult, but possible. 

[Norcal]

I love the kid and I believe in his talent but i'm not sure Levi is ready to start full time in the NHL yet. 

I'd love to see them bring in a 1A to play the majority of the games.

As playoffs approach I'd ride the hot hand. 

[nfreeman]

I voted yes, yes and a fair amount. 

I am not giving up a top-3 prospect (which I assume does not include Quinn, JJP or Levi, but does include Benson, Savoie and Kulich) at this point in time for any goalie in the NHL.

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I voted yes, yes and a fair amount. 

I am not giving up a top-3 prospect (which I assume does not include Quinn, JJP or Levi, but does include Benson, Savoie and Kulich) at this point in time for any goalie in the NHL.

same answer.  If Wpg would trade us Helle for Rosen, UPL, and something, I think KA would have to consider it.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

same answer.  If Wpg would trade us Helle for Rosen, UPL, and something, I think KA would have to consider it.

It would be a fleeting consideration because of Helle's contract status. Since KA has taken over he has been inclined to acquire assets and been reluctant to shed them, especially for someone who could walk away in one year. That's not how he operates. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

26 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It would be a fleeting consideration because of Helle's contract status. Since KA has taken over he has been inclined to acquire assets and been reluctant to shed them, especially for someone who could walk away in one year. That's not how he operates. 

I agree in general, but I’d trade Wpg Rosen for one year of Helle.  Then again I think Rosen is Joel Armia 2.0.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Yes.

No.

Nothing.

[The Jokeman]

I'd look at what the Flyers want for Carter Hart. I'd be willing to move Comrie, a Russian prospect and a 2nd or 3rd rounder. I don't want to rush Levi.

[Marvin]

10 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I'd look at what the Flyers want for Carter Hart. I'd be willing to move Comrie, a Russian prospect and a 2nd or 3rd rounder. I don't want to rush Levi.

The asking price is the equivalent of 2 firsts.  Too rich for my blood.

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

The asking price is the equivalent of 2 firsts.  Too rich for my blood.

How is a backup goalie, a mid level prospect and a 2nd or 3rd equal to two 1sts?

Edited July 2, 2023 by The Jokeman

[DarthEbriate]

4 hours ago, SwampD said:

I haven’t given up on UPL yet.

There's still a good chance they trade UPL. But he showed some poise last season, particularly early. He stayed vertical instead of leaning forward. With better defensive structure around him, he might benefit quite well from simply being big and being consistent in his positioning. He doesn't need to steal games like Levi will, but he just can't blow the games where the offense is doing just fine.

I think they waive Comrie and roll with the kids. If UPL can just be good-backup level and hit .900+ for 34 games, that's probably enough for Levi to handle the rest of the season.

But if the Sabres do roll these 2 kids... I think they'll fade down the stretch, rather than ramp it up as the season progresses. Edit: Which means you're looking to pick up the veteran goalie to make a playoff run.

Edited July 2, 2023 by DarthEbriate

[Second Line Center]

I’m sure it’s in another thread but worth noting….here

 

 

 

[dudacek]

Here’s the thing about proven starting goalies: there aren’t very many of them.

You want to know how many goalies have played 130 games over the past 3 years, which is only an average of 43 starts?

Just 13

You aren’t getting Vasilevskiy, Saros, Shesterkin, Sorokin and Oettinger.

And most of you don’t want Hellebuyck, Markstrom, Gibson, Binnington or Bobrovsky given their contracts.

I’d say Kuemper and Jarry are both too expensive, and unavailable.

And then there’s Fleury who has a no-movement clause and is apparently done with moving.

The Venn diagram of goalies who are proven, available and affordable is very small.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree in general, but I’d trade Wpg Rosen for one year of Helle.  Then again I think Rosen is Joel Armia 2.0.

The issue is not what would you be willing to give up as it is what would Winnipeg be willing to accept for their prized goalie. If you offered Rosen for Helle, the snickering from the team located in western Canadian would turn into an uproarious laughter. As @dudacekhas wisely pointed out the market for goalies that would be considered an upgrade from what we have has diminished almost to the point of being nonexistent. 

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Here’s the thing about proven starting goalies: there aren’t very many of them.

You want to know how many goalies have played 130 games over the past 3 years, which is only an average of 43 starts?

Just 13

You aren’t getting Vasilevskiy, Saros, Shesterkin, Sorokin and Oettinger.

And most of you don’t want Hellebuyck, Markstrom, Gibson, Binnington or Bobrovsky given their contracts.

I’d say Kuemper and Jarry are both too expensive, and unavailable.

And then there’s Fleury who has a no-movement clause and is apparently done with moving.

The Venn diagram of goalies who are proven, available and affordable is very small.

Similar to the mythical top 4 defensemen that every single team is looking for.

[Huckleberry]

2 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

I’m sure it’s in another thread but worth noting….here

 

 

 

Also the thing you have to say to keep price down if you are being offered a goalie like Gibson.

[B-U-F-F-A-L-O]

I voted aggressively for change but I don’t think the questions are as clear as it appears in this questionnaire….

What I really want is for the team to get much better. I don’t think we’re there yet.

I appreciate that KA is between a rock and a hard place as far as getting help for the next two years and no more as we should have several players definitely NHL ready by then. He wants spots open to the kids if they appear close to ready for this year and next year as well. However, I don’t want to see the Sabres miss the playoffs ever again. The defensive adds are huge. The five rookies from last season getting better for us this season is huge even though it’s only four now, But these are not guarantees….

I’d like to see more upgrades for this season. Maybe a #1 goalie. Maybe a 3rd line center great at face-offs. We could use both. I was a bit excited when we didn’t sign Jost. I like Jost and all but was hoping for a known upgrade. The only lines right now we have that are in ink are the first and the fourth….

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

Similar to the mythical top 4 defensemen that every single team is looking for.

The two guys that so many are content with playing while Levi rests ranked in the 80s and played hockey that not one person was okay with for massive chunks of the season, and I have no idea where Levi himself might fall. I hope that needing better than this and believing it is possible does not come off as mysticism. I am seeing a lot of people forget the sort of pain that Comrie and UPL provided last year, both on their own and relative to how the position is played league-wide. It's the sort of thing that can cost another year of drought. It sure did last year. 

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The two guys that so many are content with playing while Levi rests ranked in the 80s and played hockey that not one person was okay with for massive chunks of the season, and I have no idea where Levi himself might fall. I hope that needing better than this and believing it is possible does not come off as mysticism. I am seeing a lot of people forget the sort of pain that Comrie and UPL provided last year, both on their own and relative to how the position is played league-wide. It's the sort of thing that can cost another year of drought. It sure did last year. 

I’m starting to think there are only 2 paths worth taking: pay the price for Gibson, Hart or Hellebuyck, or put all your chips on Levi and use those assets to acquire Pesce/Hanifin.

I don’t think a good middle ground option for goalie acquisition exists.

 

[Doohickie]

4 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

I’m sure it’s in another thread but worth noting….here

This means almost nothing to me.  This is Kevyn being Kevyn:  Always speak highly of your own players, period.  I think it doesn't indicate one way or the other what his intentions are for goalie.  Talking less enthusiastically would either decrease UPL/Comrie's trade value or, if they aren't traded, discourage them.  No good would come from public acknowledging a problem in net.

 

As for my thoughts about the poll:

1. Do you think Levi is capable of delivering 50+ games of good goaltending this year? - I said no.  I don't think that necessarily means he can't, but rather I wouldn't want to put him into that situation.  If the Sabres have a good starter that Levi could back up, it would be ideal.  As Levi demonstrates he can handle a heavy workload, give him the work.

2. Do you want to add a goalie capable of delivering 50+ games of good goaltending this year? - I said yes.  But I would word it differently:  I want the Sabres to *have* a goalie (besides Levi) capable of 50+ quality games per year.  I'm not ready to categorically deny that UPL isn't that guy.  Thus:

3. How much are you willing to to invest in a trade for a new starting-calibre goalkeeper? - a middling prospect or a 2nd round pick is the most I would give up.  Call me gun shy, but I have nightmare flashbacks of XGMTM giving up a first for Robin Lehner.

[Doohickie]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

It would be a fleeting consideration because of Helle's contract status. Since KA has taken over he has been inclined to acquire assets and been reluctant to shed them, especially for someone who could walk away in one year. That's not how he operates. 

I think if we gave up UPL and Rosen (as was suggested) for Helle for one year, that might be all Kevyn would want to commit to.  Everyone says trading for Helle is contingent on signing an extension, but I don't think Kevyn would want to pay the dollars and term that Helle would command.  I think Hellebyuck would literally be a rental where Kevyn might trade him out at the deadline for roughly what he paid for him- a goalie prospect and another prospect, to a team looking to sign him long term.  That tells me that to Kevyn, acquiring Hellebyuck (or another top shelf goalie) is probably a non-starter.

Yeah, there's a reason I'm not an NHL GM.

7 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Yes.

No.

Nothing.

I admire your faith.