Tage Thompson's Upside? What Do You Think?

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I’m curious what kind of moves the Sabres could be making that they won’t be making that you think they should be making?

Would you be interested in a move like the Tyler Toffoli trade? Dvorak? Nate Schmidt?

Should Adams be in the Jeff Chychrun market?

Why do you think the Sabres don’t care if they are better or not next year?

Please don’t take this as a “there’s no goalies worth playing the price for” post. I’m genuinely interested.

 

Probably not because that dude is 55yrs old and retired. 

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don’t know if they do, or not. I know that winning wasn’t the priority regarding the season we are currently in, though, and that’s where the idea gets its start. 

Like I’ve mentioned before, it’ll be the moves, or lack thereof, that Adams makes this coming offseason that inform my viewpoint on whether or not winning is being given the appropriate level of priority.

My post didn’t say anything about what the true course of action would be for Adams. Like the bit I bolded in the post you responded to, that I used as a reference point, I was making a point about fan perception. What satisfies is often the achievement of expectations, *regardless* of what the expectations are. 

Like the twitter bit I included - the overwhelming sense is NOT that the rebuild might, or even will, work: it’s that it’s *already* successful. They aren’t looking for markers of success, a little thing like “being very bad” (being very bad. Think about this.) doesn’t even represent a point of CONCERN regarding whether the rebuild is moving along successfully. I can’t wrap my mind around it.

The twitter post is consciously setting the expectations low. “We will be bad but rebuild still great”. As long as we achieve expectations, right? “That’s the plan, the plan is to not win.”

You have to remember, I said from the *beginning* I was against a full scale reset. It’s a admitted bias that informs many an opinion, from me. I’ve posted numerous times about the danger I perceive in a GM being given too long a runway: that carving out a long, long plan, that doesn’t require actual results for a long time, is to the benefit of the job security of the GM in question.

I’ve said it - the conscious, actually clearly marketed (in many forms of media) re-set of expectations this offseason by the organization was a master stroke.

I posted the twitter post because the buy-in scares me. I worry about the rope they are being given and what may come of it. The post isn’t about what I think will happen so much as it is about me being worried about it. 

So a random post on twitter that is recognizing the team might not be great next year is upsetting you? 

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

So a post about the mindset of fanbase more than the mindset of the team.

Speaking only for myself, I think this year is a convergence of a hockey rebuild philosophy with the financial needs of the larger Pegula empire.

But I certainly don’t buy into the idea that progress (measured, amongst other factors, by wins) is irrelevant.

A hockey rebuild would benefit from more wins next year, but a business rebuild is desperate for it.

So I expect a better team next year and action taken toward that goal.

Which leads me to the other part of my post: what are some real world examples of the kinds of moves do you think the Sabres can and should be making?

When have you ever seen me post about specific theoretical acquisitions we should be making from other teams, or from UFA? I don’t have the hubris to claim I have close to the knowledge to be able to identify these things without access to the vast array of information Adams, or any GM, has. There are too many unknowns and variables there for me to feel I have an informed stance on what specific move should be made. Indeed, with any GM I’ve focused on the needs that need to be addressed - that much is visible, without the data I don’t like telling the GM *who* they should trade for - I don’t have the asking prices so how could I say? 

Merely my stance is rooted in the idea its wholly illogical to think, in the vast expanse of the league as a whole, that there could somehow be *no* reasonable avenues for improvement. 

My expectation is that they improve - is it on me, the non professional being paid nothing, to literally figure out that avenue for improvement and explain it to you? 

Find a goalie that isn’t 40. There’s a start.

[Thorny]

32 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Probably not because that dude is 55yrs old and retired. 

So a random post on twitter that is recognizing the team might not be great next year is upsetting you? 

I thought it was an avenue for discussion, yes. I often partake in discussion here to be reassured, as a fan - insecurities therein on dull display. I’m not as concretely sure in my Sabres stances as you are Liger, I apologize 

You don’t want to have a good faith discussion anyways, again. “Might not be great”. What’s the point of fighting an argument against someone not having the same one you are?

I dunno if you read my post but I took issue with the “very bad” wording specifically. If you want to change my stance in your own mind to me taking issue with “might not be great”, have at it, sir

Edited February 15, 2022 by Thorny

[dudacek]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

When have you ever seen me post about specific theoretical acquisitions we should be making from other teams, or from UFA? I don’t have the hubris to claim I have close to the knowledge to be able to identify these things without access to the vast array of information Adams, or any GM, has. There are too many unknowns and variables there for me to feel I have an informed stance on what specific move should be made. Indeed, with any GM I’ve focused on the needs that need to be addressed - that much is visible, without the data I don’t like telling the GM *who* they should trade for - I don’t have the asking prices so how could I say? 

Merely my stance is rooted in the idea its wholly illogical to think, in the vast expanse of the league as a whole, that there could somehow be *no* reasonable avenues for improvement. 

My expectation is that they improve - is it on me, the non professional being paid nothing, to literally figure out that avenue for improvement and explain it to you? 

Find a goalie that isn’t 40. There’s a start.

You haven’t. Probably the main reason I asked. 😁

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You haven’t. Probably the main reason I asked. 😁

No I meant like, ever

I’m not the “oh we should trade for THIS guy”, guy, never have been. I talked about the goaltending all offseason not being enough, I didn’t list the names of who we should have acquired - other posters here can, and do a much better job than I could ever do in illustrating those names

And it didn’t stop me from being right about the goaltending. Along with the hundreds of others who saw it coming 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

41 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I thought it was an avenue for discussion, yes. I often partake in discussion here to be reassured, as a fan - insecurities therein on dull display. I’m not as concretely sure in my Sabres stances as you are Liger, I apologize 

You don’t want to have a good faith discussion anyways, again. “Might not be great”. What’s the point of fighting an argument against someone not having the same one you are?

I dunno if you read my post but I took issue with the “very bad” wording specifically. If you want to change my stance in your own mind to me taking issue with “might not be great”, have at it, sir

We're gonna finish 22 next year. If one of the goalies is really good we might be better. 

[Flashsabre]

As the kids like to say, Tage is a unicorn. No other team in the league can throw a 6’7 offensive centre over the boards. Man what a load Tage and Tuch would be in a playoff series.

He has all the physical tools it is just a matter of him realizing mentally that he can dominate consistently.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Flashsabre

[Rasmus_]

So I will swallow my pride here, if I haven't said it here.  I was majorly wrong about Tage.  He's showing much more than what I saw early on.  While he's not a long term #1 line center, he's definitely a quality 40-50 point potential player. 

[Zamboni]

18 minutes ago, Rasmus_ said:

So I will swallow my pride here, if I haven't said it here.  I was majorly wrong about Tage.  He's showing much more than what I saw early on.  While he's not a long term #1 line center, he's definitely a quality 40-50 point potential player. 

You mean … he’s one of those pesky young players that needs time to develop?  And he’s still developing? He wasn’t a finished product when we acquired him?  Whoda thunk it?

😂

 

Tage is developing nicely. A lot of our younger players are. Some slower than some fans want … but developing nonetheless.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

As the kids like to say, Tage is a unicorn. No other team in the league can throw a 6’7 offensive centre over the boards. Man what a load Tage and Tuch would be in a playoff series.

He has all the physical tools it is just a matter of him realizing mentally that he can dominate consistently.

This has been under discussed IMO. 

There are more talented duos and faster duos. There are very few duos that big.

There is not a combination in the NHL that combines size, skill and skating like those two. I can’t think of one even close.

1 hour ago, Rasmus_ said:

So I will swallow my pride here, if I haven't said it here.  I was majorly wrong about Tage.  He's showing much more than what I saw early on.  While he's not a long term #1 line center, he's definitely a quality 40-50 point potential player. 

Not so fast. He’s still 6 points shy of that level and only has 35 games left to hit it. 😜

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Not so fast. He’s still 6 points shy of that level and only has 35 games left to hit it. 😜

I was surprised to hear he's a PPG player on home ice.  Pretty impressive.

[Weave]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

This has been under discussed IMO. 

There are more talented duos and faster duos. There are very few duos that big.

There is not a combination in the NHL that combines size, skill and skating like those two. I can’t think of one even close.

Not so fast. He’s still 6 points shy of that level and only has 35 games left to hit it. 😜

That is a 90s type pairing.  They’d fit right in with Otto, Holik, Leclair, Lindros, Mario and Jagr.  Obviously not on the elite end of that group, but size and skill to use to their advantage.

[sabremike]

7 hours ago, Rasmus_ said:

So I will swallow my pride here, if I haven't said it here.  I was majorly wrong about Tage.  He's showing much more than what I saw early on.  While he's not a long term #1 line center, he's definitely a quality 40-50 point potential player. 

Tage forgives you!!!

[Rasmus_]

19 hours ago, dudacek said:

This has been under discussed IMO. 

There are more talented duos and faster duos. There are very few duos that big.

There is not a combination in the NHL that combines size, skill and skating like those two. I can’t think of one even close.

Not so fast. He’s still 6 points shy of that level and only has 35 games left to hit it. 😜

Definitely, why I said, potential player.  I would really like to see this continue from this year into next, before I say that's what he is.  But, he potentially looks like a "developing" Buffalo Sabre, which isn't something we've been able to say in a while. 

[Crusader1969]

IF O’Reilly didn’t win the cup would we start thinking the trade was actually pretty good with the way Tage playing and with Johnson looking like an NHL player soon?

or should it be considered a decent trade regardless of the cup?

or still think the Sabres got ripped off ? 

[Marvin]

OK.  I was wrong.  He can top out as a 2C.  He has been taking all the tough match-ups on the road and steadily improving.

6 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

IF O’Reilly didn’t win the cup would we start thinking the trade was actually pretty good with the way Tage playing and with Johnson looking like an NHL player soon?

or should it be considered a decent trade regardless of the cup?

or still think the Sabres got ripped off ? 

I still think it was a bad, bad trade for the Sabres.  That trade set the team back 3 years.  If we had had Eichel-Reinhart and Skinner-O'Reilly as top line pairs, then other teams have to shut down 2 lines.  Add the LOG line and you actually have 3 NHL-quality lines.  That is far better than what we had at the time.

[Crusader1969]

22 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

OK.  I was wrong.  He can top out as a 2C.  He has been taking all the tough match-ups on the road and steadily improving.

I still think it was a bad, bad trade for the Sabres.  That trade set the team back 3 years.  If we had had Eichel-Reinhart and Skinner-O'Reilly as top line pairs, then other teams have to shut down 2 lines.  Add the LOG line and you actually have 3 NHL-quality lines.  That is far better than what we had at the time.

Just so we are clear they came in last place with O’Reilly, Kane, Eichel and Reinhart

 

[Curt]

44 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

OK.  I was wrong.  He can top out as a 2C.  He has been taking all the tough match-ups on the road and steadily improving.

I still think it was a bad, bad trade for the Sabres.  That trade set the team back 3 years.  If we had had Eichel-Reinhart and Skinner-O'Reilly as top line pairs, then other teams have to shut down 2 lines.  Add the LOG line and you actually have 3 NHL-quality lines.  That is far better than what we had at the time.

Yeah, if Thompson puts up a 30+ goal, 60+ point season, with decent defense, I don’t see any way to say that he can’t be a 2C on a good team.  He has been a revelation.

[NAF]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

IF O’Reilly didn’t win the cup would we start thinking the trade was actually pretty good with the way Tage playing and with Johnson looking like an NHL player soon?

or should it be considered a decent trade regardless of the cup?

or still think the Sabres got ripped off ? 

Time value also should come into play here -- the Blues got a fantastic player that immediately helped them win. We've had to wait 4 years for Tage to turn into something good. Also still waiting on Ryan Johnson.

Don't forget the Sabres had to eat Berglund and Sobotka's contracts. Even if Johnson turns into a good second paring blueliner they'll still have lost the trade.

[Flashsabre]

2 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

OK.  I was wrong.  He can top out as a 2C.  He has been taking all the tough match-ups on the road and steadily improving.

I still think it was a bad, bad trade for the Sabres.  That trade set the team back 3 years.  If we had had Eichel-Reinhart and Skinner-O'Reilly as top line pairs, then other teams have to shut down 2 lines.  Add the LOG line and you actually have 3 NHL-quality lines.  That is far better than what we had at the time.

It can both be a bad trade and the Sabres can be happy with how Tage and Ryan Johnson are developing.

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

Just so we are clear they came in last place with O’Reilly, Kane, Eichel and Reinhart

 

I know.  I was thinking more of the team in Housley's second season.  Having him on that team helps immensely.  The defence had improved; some of the over-the-hill players like Moulson were gone; Kane wasn't here (an under-rated subtraction); and the LOG line became a force.  Think about it. Casey Mittlestadt is not 2C.  No Vladimir Sobotka.  So instead of two lines getting caved in every shift, at most one does.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Just so we are clear they came in last place with O’Reilly, Kane, Eichel and Reinhart

 

With a 20 year old Eichel and 21 year old Reinhart, yes. 

That’s not a good faith sample size with ROR considering they were incredibly young and still developing. 

The last season Eichel played with ROR, Eichel was in the same post draft season that Cozens is in, now. I wonder if we consider Cozens to have shown all he has in the context of our current core..

Edited February 19, 2022 by Thorny

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

IF O’Reilly didn’t win the cup would we start thinking the trade was actually pretty good with the way Tage playing and with Johnson looking like an NHL player soon?

or should it be considered a decent trade regardless of the cup?

or still think the Sabres got ripped off ? 

The Sabres still got ripped off.  They gave a Selke level player away for pieces that were 3+ years out (which were extremely, and a couple of pieces still are, hit or miss) and was a substantial component of the "necessitation" of getting rid of the tank fruit.

That trade added years to the "suffering" we were promised by Regier.

[mjd1001]

Right now that trade is looking very very good for the Sabres.  Why?  They were one of the worst teams in the league with ROR here. when he left what changed? Not much. They were bad with him, they were bad without him.  However, what they got in return...the piece they got in Tage, looks to be more valuable to this team now and going forward than ROR was.  If ROR stayed with this team, they would still have been bad and he is now on the wrong side of 30 years old.  He would not have made a difference in the Sabres making the playoffs the last couple of years, and going forward Tage looks like a LOT better player for when/if this team is good.

The ultimate question I ask myself is...if I could, would I un-do the trade? The answer is a very big No.

[LGR4GM]

50 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Right now that trade is looking very very good for the Sabres.  Why?  They were one of the worst teams in the league with ROR here. when he left what changed? Not much. They were bad with him, they were bad without him.  However, what they got in return...the piece they got in Tage, looks to be more valuable to this team now and going forward than ROR was.  If ROR stayed with this team, they would still have been bad and he is now on the wrong side of 30 years old.  He would not have made a difference in the Sabres making the playoffs the last couple of years, and going forward Tage looks like a LOT better player for when/if this team is good.

The ultimate question I ask myself is...if I could, would I un-do the trade? The answer is a very big No.

That's a bold statement and we'll never know