Tage Thompson's Upside? What Do You Think?

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Assuming the Sabres don't end up with a "generational" stud C in the 2022 draft, I can see the Sabres having a bunch of pretty good #2/#3 Cs -- Tager, Krebs, Cozens and Mitts -- with an ongoing competition for usage and ice time. 

For the record, TT's emergence IMHO has been really something and a major accomplishment by DG.  His line consistently creates chances and he creates offense by carrying the puck up ice, finding soft spots and firing both a huge slapper and a dangerous wrister.  He has a very good sense for the offensive game overall.  He's also pretty decent on the backcheck and has acquitted himself pretty well in Eichel's old spot on the left half-wall on the PP, including the 2-man game with Dahlin.

 

He has 2 power play points this season - he's not acquitting himself "pretty well" in Eichel's spot on the PP. 

The Sabres can certainly try the depth of C route, but they still need to add another other this draft, then. We still need more high-ceiling bullets than we have. 

 

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Good question.  I think the 2006 Sabres could’ve won the Cup, and that team didn’t have a top-10 player.  You could say the same of STL in 2019 (Tarasenko had 68 pts that year and I don’t think Pietrangelo or ROR is a superstar) and perhaps Boston in 2011, although I think Marchand is a top 10 player.  

We need to stop referencing 06 without mentioning that Briere paced for more points that season than Eichel EVER has. I don't even care what people adjudge Briere to be overall, that TEAM can't be the target if we don't acknowledge that TEAM (and 07) had an over a point a game C those years.

That wasn't just a squad with 4 "pretty good 2Cs".

Re: Boston - we can't just look at points. Bergeron is an ELITE player. 

[Huckleberry]

Right now Thompson is playing like our future 2C, lets see if he can keep it up.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Do you think a team made up of good players can win a Stanley cup without a superstar? Seems like we will have a bunch of really good players soon, but no legit super star 

Yes.  But the team needs to be significantly better throughout the lineup than the team that has a line that can pretty much guarantee a GPG from that top line.

And they definitely can't have more money tied up in bad contracts than this one already does.

[Weave]

This one is a pet peeve of mine and I just have to say it.

One of the biggest (if not the biggest) criticism that was published in these pages regarding Tage was the dreaded low hockey IQ.   I think his play this season has thoroughly debunked that.  It’s a totally immeasurable “stat” that we love to label guys with even though we have no evidence to back it up.

Its a label that needs to die here.  These guys don’t get to this level without game intelligence.

[inkman]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

This one is a pet peeve of mine and I just have to say it.

One of the biggest (if not the biggest) criticism that was published in these pages regarding Tage was the dreaded low hockey IQ.   I think his play this season has thoroughly debunked that.  It’s a totally immeasurable “stat” that we love to label guys with even though we have no evidence to back it up.

Its a label that needs to die here.  These guys don’t get to this level without game intelligence.

Risto? 
 

[nfreeman]

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He has 2 power play points this season - he's not acquitting himself "pretty well" in Eichel's spot on the PP. 

The Sabres can certainly try the depth of C route, but they still need to add another other this draft, then. We still need more high-ceiling bullets than we have. 

 

OK Mr. Grumpy.  When I watch TT on the half-wall, I see him handling it very well, with the 2nd-best puck skills on the unit after Dahlin.  The D can't just rush him and take it away, which isn't true of anyone else on the unit besides those 2.  His shot is a major threat that bends the defense towards him and creates opportunities on the other side of the ice for guys like VO and (hopefully) Skinner.  He's a key part of a surprisingly decent PP (#10 in the NHL in PPG). 

 

33 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We need to stop referencing 06 without mentioning that Briere paced for more points that season than Eichel EVER has. I don't even care what people adjudge Briere to be overall, that TEAM can't be the target if we don't acknowledge that TEAM (and 07) had an over a point a game C those years.

That wasn't just a squad with 4 "pretty good 2Cs".

Re: Boston - we can't just look at points. Bergeron is an ELITE player. 

Briere is one of my all-time favorite Sabres, but if we're listing things we "need" to do, we should remember that he played 48 games in 2006.  I don't think most hockey observers would've called him a "superstar" or a top-10 player that year.  Maybe 2007 though.

Similarly, Bergeron has been a terrific player, but again -- most hockey observers wouldn't call him a top-10 player or a superstar.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

OK Mr. Grumpy.  When I watch TT on the half-wall, I see him handling it very well, with the 2nd-best puck skills on the unit after Dahlin.  The D can't just rush him and take it away, which isn't true of anyone else on the unit besides those 2.  His shot is a major threat that bends the defense towards him and creates opportunities on the other side of the ice for guys like VO and (hopefully) Skinner.  He's a key part of a surprisingly decent PP (#10 in the NHL in PPG).

This is what I'm seeing as well. He doesn't look like the decent offensive 3C that seems to be getting adopted as his new ceiling, he looks better than that. Is it just a factor of usage and is it sustainable?

I think the question of how good TT can be still has to be answered.

 

[Weave]

57 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is what I'm seeing as well. He doesn't look like the decent offensive 3C that seems to be getting adopted as his new ceiling, he looks better than that. Is it just a factor of usage and is it sustainable?

I think the question of how good TT can be still has to be answered.

 

I agree that Tage is still improving.  I don't agree that his stats are more than a result of being forced at a level above where he should be.

I am having trouble with putting it to words.  Derek Plante..... Had a really nice season with Donald Audette and (was it Randy Burridge, maybe) on his wing, and again when he was forced into a featured role when LaFontaine went down long term.  But after getting traded to Dallas, a stacked team, he was a part time NHL player.

Not suggesting TT is destined to be a part time NHL player.  Am suggesting that mediocre players can be made to look better when forced into elevated roles with linemates they normally wouldn't have. 

TT has risen to the occassion.   But I think we will not be a good team as long as TT is a featured player.  We will be a good team when TT is a support player.

[Doohickie]

4 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

but no legit super star 

So?  I hate using The Perfection Line in Boston as an example, but none of them were drafted particularly high:  25th, 45th and  71st.  Are they superstars?  Regardless of how you answer that question, are they good enough to lead a Stanley Cup drive?  Right now we have a bevy of middle six centers either here or just around the corner.  Is it not unreasonable to assume that one of them will develop into a 1C?  I think Olofsson is potentially that line's RW.  We have several promising players that could be the LW on a top line.

I think what we learned is that drafting a stud 1C and expecting him to lead the team out of the ashes isn't the way to build.  This go-round they're seeking to fill the cupboard with pretty good players and let the top line emerge through competition, instead of being handed the title.  This yields two benefits:  1. the top line will have earned their position and will understand that there are other players knocking at the door to replace them; and 2. the players knocking at the door are pretty darned good too so you don't have a stacked first line and a bunch of placeholders, JAGs and unproven kids under them.

[Curt]

54 minutes ago, Weave said:

I agree that Tage is still improving.  I don't agree that his stats are more than a result of being forced at a level above where he should be.

I am having trouble with putting it to words.  Derek Plante..... Had a really nice season with Donald Audette and (was it Randy Burridge, maybe) on his wing, and again when he was forced into a featured role when LaFontaine went down long term.  But after getting traded to Dallas, a stacked team, he was a part time NHL player.

Not suggesting TT is destined to be a part time NHL player.  Am suggesting that mediocre players can be made to look better when forced into elevated roles with linemates they normally wouldn't have. 

TT has risen to the occassion.   But I think we will not be a good team as long as TT is a featured player.  We will be a good team when TT is a support player.

This is most likely true.

Outside chance that Thompson becomes a guy who can be real main piece (above average 2C who can be a main part of the PP), but more likely he is a middle 6 or 3C who is useful but not essential.

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I agree that Tage is still improving.  I don't agree that his stats are more than a result of being forced at a level above where he should be.

I am having trouble with putting it to words.  Derek Plante..... Had a really nice season with Donald Audette and (was it Randy Burridge, maybe) on his wing, and again when he was forced into a featured role when LaFontaine went down long term.  But after getting traded to Dallas, a stacked team, he was a part time NHL player.

Not suggesting TT is destined to be a part time NHL player.  Am suggesting that mediocre players can be made to look better when forced into elevated roles with linemates they normally wouldn't have. 

TT has risen to the occassion.   But I think we will not be a good team as long as TT is a featured player.  We will be a good team when TT is a support player.

I don't necessarily disagree with this well thought, well articulated, situational scenario. With that being said.....

TAGE THOMPSON FOR PRESIDENT, 2024!!!!

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I agree that Tage is still improving.  I don't agree that his stats are more than a result of being forced at a level above where he should be.

I am having trouble with putting it to words.  Derek Plante..... Had a really nice season with Donald Audette and (was it Randy Burridge, maybe) on his wing, and again when he was forced into a featured role when LaFontaine went down long term.  But after getting traded to Dallas, a stacked team, he was a part time NHL player.

Not suggesting TT is destined to be a part time NHL player.  Am suggesting that mediocre players can be made to look better when forced into elevated roles with linemates they normally wouldn't have. 

TT has risen to the occassion.   But I think we will not be a good team as long as TT is a featured player.  We will be a good team when TT is a support player.

You’ve made this case before and, in general, I agree with it.

The reason I’m not automatically agreeing with it now is that I just can’t overlook the fact that Tage Thompson’s physical gifts appear to be much, much higher than Derek Plante’s ever were, like in every single area. I never once thought Plante was driving play, or that he ever could.

A featured role can certainly elevate production, the way it did Plante, but I’m not sure it can elevate play.

Plante produced, but he never made the sorts of plays I’m seeing Thompson make on an almost nightly basis this year.

Tage isn’t padding his stats on the PP, picking up garbage from more skilled linemates, rocking an unsustainable shooting percentage, or getting dominated analytically contrary to what his counting stats say.

Forget Plante, and forget history, from what you’ve seen Tage do this year, give me some example of why your scenario applies? 

Edited November 24, 2021 by dudacek

[Doohickie]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Plante produced, but he never made the sorts of plays I’m seeing Thompson make on an almost nightly basis this year.

It's almost as if letting Tage figure it out last year (when to dangle, when to shoot, when to pass), then moving him to center, unleashed him.

[Weave]

39 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You’ve made this case before and, in general, I agree with it.

The reason I’m not automatically agreeing with it now is that I just can’t overlook the fact that Tage Thompson’s physical gifts appear to be much, much higher than Derek Plante’s ever were, like in every single area. I never once thought Plante was driving play, or that he ever could.

A featured role can certainly elevate production, the way it did Plante, but I’m not sure it can elevate play.

Plante produced, but he never made the sorts of plays I’m seeing Thompson make on an almost nightly basis this year.

Tage isn’t padding his stats on the PP, picking up garbage from more skilled linemates, rocking an unsustainable shooting percentage, or getting dominated analytically contrary to what his counting stats say.

Forget Plante, and forget history, from what you’ve seen Tage do this year, give me some example of why your scenario applies? 

Oh hell, I'm not going to be able to satisfy that request.  I don't have a single play from any player, from any game this year that struck me so thoroughly that I've got it stored in memory and can critically discuss it.  You guys that do it always surprise me.  I keep it in the moment.  What I see is a platoon C, not a 2C.  A platoon C that will provide offensive pressure.

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

OK Mr. Grumpy.  When I watch TT on the half-wall, I see him handling it very well, with the 2nd-best puck skills on the unit after Dahlin.  The D can't just rush him and take it away, which isn't true of anyone else on the unit besides those 2.  His shot is a major threat that bends the defense towards him and creates opportunities on the other side of the ice for guys like VO and (hopefully) Skinner.  He's a key part of a surprisingly decent PP (#10 in the NHL in PPG). 

 

Briere is one of my all-time favorite Sabres, but if we're listing things we "need" to do, we should remember that he played 48 games in 2006.  I don't think most hockey observers would've called him a "superstar" or a top-10 player that year.  Maybe 2007 though.

Similarly, Bergeron has been a terrific player, but again -- most hockey observers wouldn't call him a top-10 player or a superstar.

48 regular season games. The Sabres weren’t lights out that whole season - they strengthened as it went on. When we think of that team we think of the one down the stretch and, especially, into the playoffs. Briere was there for all of it. And, 95 points in 07. 

Clearly he had become more than a “pretty good 2C” and to claim otherwise would be mistaken. 

Again, we don’t need to jump from “2C” to “superstar”. There is plenty of room for “true 1C” in between 

[Thorny]

Re: Bergeron. Why do I care about “most hockey observers.”. Link? The analysts worth their weight in that regard recognize Bergeron’s greatness. I don’t care where he falls on the “top 10” any given year. Perennial selke contender. Team Canada Olympic team staple. What centres have we had you’d take over him? 

He’s not just a superstar, he’s an all time talent 

He’s going to the Hall of Fame, I’m pretty sure he’s a true 1C. 

Here’s a link from 8 months ago detailing how his peers selected him as the 7th best C in the NHL, at the age of 35. Just behind Jack Eichel at 6, actually. 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/nesn.com/2021/04/where-nhl-players-coaches-rank-patrice-bergeron-among-best-centers/amp/

Edited November 24, 2021 by Thorny

[pi2000]

Tage does some things exceptionally well... shooting, above average hands, skates well for a big guy.   If he continues to round out his game he could be an important piece, even on a stacked team.   He'll need to stay healthy, continue to put up points (he has more points than Sam Reinhart who many here were clamoring to play center), and improve at the little things (faceoffs, defense, leadership).   He has a fantastic tool set, he's maturing before our eyes

[Thorny]

55 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You’ve made this case before and, in general, I agree with it.

The reason I’m not automatically agreeing with it now is that I just can’t overlook the fact that Tage Thompson’s physical gifts appear to be much, much higher than Derek Plante’s ever were, like in every single area. I never once thought Plante was driving play, or that he ever could.

A featured role can certainly elevate production, the way it did Plante, but I’m not sure it can elevate play.

Plante produced, but he never made the sorts of plays I’m seeing Thompson make on an almost nightly basis this year.

Tage isn’t padding his stats on the PP, picking up garbage from more skilled linemates, rocking an unsustainable shooting percentage, or getting dominated analytically contrary to what his counting stats say.

Forget Plante, and forget history, from what you’ve seen Tage do this year, give me some example of why your scenario applies? 

So he’s found a way to seamlessly replace Eichel on the PP while also managing to avoid contributing points there so as to not pad his stats. 

Never mind lacking hockey sense, he’s a genius 

[French Collection]

16 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Re: Bergeron. Why do I care about “most hockey observers.”. Link? The analysts worth their weight in that regard recognize Bergeron’s greatness. I don’t care where he falls on the “top 10” any given year. Perennial selke contender. Team Canada Olympic team staple. What centres have we had you’d take over him? 

He’s not just a superstar, he’s an all time talent 

He’s going to the Hall of Fame, I’m pretty sure he’s a true 1C. 

Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, World Championship and World Junior Championship. He knows how to win.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

Tage does some things exceptionally well... shooting, above average hands, skates well for a big guy.   If he continues to round out his game he could be an important piece, even on a stacked team.   He'll need to stay healthy, continue to put up points (he has more points than Sam Reinhart who many here were clamoring to play center), and improve at the little things (faceoffs, defense, leadership).   He has a fantastic tool set, he's maturing before our eyes

I think he is like Andreychuck in some  of ways.   Less scoring touch but he does more.  I think he can get better and be a steady and solid guy for a long time. 
 

I don’t see him scoring 650 goals like Andreychuck did but I see some likeness. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Pimlach

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I think he is like Andreychuck in some  of ways.   Less scoring touch but he does more.  I think he can get better and be a steady and solid guy for a long time. 
 

I don’t see him scoring 650 goals like Andreychuck did but I see some likeness. 

Maybe in relative height.  Tage isn’t stocky and doesn’t play a big mans game like Andy did.  Tage is a way better skater.

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

48 regular season games. The Sabres weren’t lights out that whole season - they strengthened as it went on. When we think of that team we think of the one down the stretch and, especially, into the playoffs. Briere was there for all of it. And, 95 points in 07. 

Clearly he had become more than a “pretty good 2C” and to claim otherwise would be mistaken. 

Again, we don’t need to jump from “2C” to “superstar”. There is plenty of room for “true 1C” in between 

 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Re: Bergeron. Why do I care about “most hockey observers.”. Link? The analysts worth their weight in that regard recognize Bergeron’s greatness. I don’t care where he falls on the “top 10” any given year. Perennial selke contender. Team Canada Olympic team staple. What centres have we had you’d take over him? 

He’s not just a superstar, he’s an all time talent 

He’s going to the Hall of Fame, I’m pretty sure he’s a true 1C. 

Here’s a link from 8 months ago detailing how his peers selected him as the 7th best C in the NHL, at the age of 35. Just behind Jack Eichel at 6, actually. 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/nesn.com/2021/04/where-nhl-players-coaches-rank-patrice-bergeron-among-best-centers/amp/

Well, as I said, I loved Briere and Bergeron has had a terrific career.  I was responding to a poster who queried whether a true superstar -- not a true #1 C -- was required to win a cup.

 

 

[Curt]

I know it’s not sustainable to score 5 goals in 4 games, or even to score 10 in the first 20, but this is really something, right?

These haven’t been lucky goals.  It seems that Tage has added a lot of finish to his game.

[Doohickie]

2 minutes ago, Curt said:

I know it’s not sustainable to score 5 goals in 4 games, or even to score 10 in the first 20, but this is really something, right?

These haven’t been lucky goals.  It seems that Tage has added a lot of finish to his game.

I think the fact that he's repeating is something:  Several blasts from the wing, some one-timers... and a few from down low.  He has his preferred spots and seems to consistently score from them.