Jack Eichel: Trade rumors and speculation

[jad1]

11 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

In the absence of hard data, you listen to the experts.  There are experts who favor ADR in general, but few, if any, that support it for NHL players.  In the end the decision as far as the Pegulas go is probably not with which expert doctors they choose, it's with the insurance underwriters.  They're simply not ready to accept the risk of a negative outcome if it's not financially insured.  Other team owners apparently have a different view.  But in the end this is, and always has been, about the financial risk of approving the surgery. 

And the risk is substantial; there is literally no data to support an NHLer getting ADR.  None.  Zilch.  Zero.  Nada.

Where are the stories about insurance underwriters not covering ADR, because I haven't seen any. 

And if the Pegulas can get a policy written on Kyle Okposo, who has had multiple concussions, I'm sure they can figure out one for Eichel.

And also consider that a spinal fusion in the NHL is NOT 100% effective, how does that change the insurance policy that the Pegulas have on Eichel?  

Spinal fusions are not common in the NHL.  It's not like there are are dozens of spinal fusions performed in the NHL every season, so that fact that "None. Zilch, Zero. Nada" ADRs have been performed in the NHL isn't the obstacle you are making it out to be.  If the spinal fusion:ADR ratio is 50:0, sure that's an issue.  If it more like 5:0, not as big a deal.

The Sabres want to trade Eichel.  The front office believes it would be easier to trade Eichel if he isn't the guinea pig for ADR in the NHL.  So they want the spinal fusion. Eichel wants a surgery that, over 20 years since its introduction, has has shown better results for his short and  long term health.  

So who's interests are the Sabres docs representing?  

If Adams wants a top return for Eichel, regardless of the surgery decided on, teams are going to want to see Eichel on the ice.  That means that the Sabres take on the risk of the surgery.  And, based on the time line, letting Eichel get ADR will solve this sooner than later.

If Adams just wants to move on from all this, he can trade Eichel now, but the return will be more O'Reilly-like.  But the team moves the risk and contract to a bargain-hunting trading partner.

 

[klos1963]

2 hours ago, Jävə Keith said:

I have posted about this in detail before. Too exhausted to try to convince those not open to it.  My career has been all about leadership development and developing servant leaders. Jack is clearly not currently a leader, especially not a servant leader (serving, being a resource, and building-up those he is in charge of leading).

To Jack's credit, it's not necessarily his fault. He has not been mentored on how to lead men, and has never had to lead before being wrongly made Captain of the Buffalo Sabres.  He has always just been the most talented player on every team he has been on. Elite talent does not equal leadership.

Perhaps Jack could still be a Sabre If he could return to the team with humility, not wearing the C (originally I said he needs to surrender the letter, but Donny & GMKA took care of that already), and merely be an elite talent, show up every day to serve his teammates and follow/submit to the leaders around him.  Not many men are mature enough & capable of pulling that off well. Definitely not a young man who has had everyone worship at his feet most of his life.

The best thing for the Sabres is to capitalize the best return they can for the asset of elite talent that is Jack Eichel.  Bring in a mature proven leader of men who knows his role is as a short term "C" to mentor & develop the next eventual Captain to be on our team (perhaps Cozens or someone not yet a Sabre). But that young captain-to-be must 1st be shown & developed as a leader, then 2nd show/prove/EARN his letter "C."

Jack never earned it. That's not his fault. He was set up to fail by being improperly "knighted" with the "C."  

As the ultimate leader, as General Manager, Adams has clearly come to same conclusion and has been making the hard decisions that are best for the long term & sustainable success for our beloved hocky franchise.

Patience is sadly what is in order for us as fans, while we let him execute the strategic plan that was launched the moment Krueger was fired.  Get the best Return on Asset (ROA) for Jack and build the future organization the right way, with the right selfless/hard-working culture, and the right leadership (A HC that develops players, and then developing the leadership skills in the future proven/earnex Captain.

In your career in leadership development, have you ever analyzed a situation just from reading newspaper reports and online comments or did you get to know the people involved in order to make a solid assessment of the situation?  No offense to you, but this is like people online telling how to raise other people's children while never having met me or my kids. It's all guesswork and speculation. You may have valid points, but you really don't know.

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I agree with @PromoTheRobot.  I remember people here having torches and pitchforks ready if GMKA had traded Eichel for returns the vast majority of posters today would find acceptable.  But by not caving, he can't increase Eichel's value.

GMKA must juggle several factors, some of which work against each other.  He can't allow Eichel to get the ADR surgery because the Pegulas would be legally on the hook for Eichel's health for the rest of his life -- even after trading him.  Thus, ADR is not on the table barring something negative happening, whence Eichel's value cannot be increased that way.  Hence, we are at the current impasse.

People forget that surgery doesn't solve anything. Teams could still doubt Eichel's recovery and lower their offers accordingly.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, North Buffalo said:

Just fyi my brother, granted he's over 50, just had neck fusion surgery... 2 levels 5 and 6.  Will let you know how he progresses.  

Curious if cervical ADR was an option and, if so, why he opted for fusion instead. 

[jad1]

12 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

People forget that surgery doesn't solve anything. Teams could still doubt Eichel's recovery and lower their offers accordingly.

That's why I feel these rumors are just bogus.  What team is going to give up the quality of prospects and players that Adams is asking for, and take on Eichel's salary without any proof that Eichel is still the player he was before the surgery?

Unless Adams tosses Eichel into the bargain bin, this doesn't get resolved until Eichel goes under the knife.

[Srw1525]

Just got to thinking, What are we going to talk about once Eichel does get traded?

[triumph_communes]

2 minutes ago, Srw1525 said:

Just got to thinking, What are we going to talk about once Eichel does get traded?

Parade routes

[Flashsabre]

4 minutes ago, Srw1525 said:

Just got to thinking, What are we going to talk about once Eichel does get traded?

I am pretty sure it will be how they don’t like the return on Eichel regardless of what it is. Also how all our college players aren’t going to sign with us and will leave in free agency instead.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Flashsabre

[Carmel Corn]

7 minutes ago, Srw1525 said:

Just got to thinking, What are we going to talk about once Eichel does get traded?

ROR version 2 trade comparisons 🙂

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, jad1 said:

Where are the stories about insurance underwriters not covering ADR, because I haven't seen any. 

And if the Pegulas can get a policy written on Kyle Okposo, who has had multiple concussions, I'm sure they can figure out one for Eichel.

And also consider that a spinal fusion in the NHL is NOT 100% effective, how does that change the insurance policy that the Pegulas have on Eichel?  

Spinal fusions are not common in the NHL.  It's not like there are are dozens of spinal fusions performed in the NHL every season, so that fact that "None. Zilch, Zero. Nada" ADRs have been performed in the NHL isn't the obstacle you are making it out to be.  If the spinal fusion:ADR ratio is 50:0, sure that's an issue.  If it more like 5:0, not as big a deal.

The Sabres want to trade Eichel.  The front office believes it would be easier to trade Eichel if he isn't the guinea pig for ADR in the NHL.  So they want the spinal fusion. Eichel wants a surgery that, over 20 years since its introduction, has has shown better results for his short and  long term health.  

So who's interests are the Sabres docs representing?  

If Adams wants a top return for Eichel, regardless of the surgery decided on, teams are going to want to see Eichel on the ice.  That means that the Sabres take on the risk of the surgery.  And, based on the time line, letting Eichel get ADR will solve this sooner than later.

If Adams just wants to move on from all this, he can trade Eichel now, but the return will be more O'Reilly-like.  But the team moves the risk and contract to a bargain-hunting trading partner.

 

Yep all you say might be true.  Then again it might not.  It's every bit as speculative as "insurance underwriters not covering ADR" (which I'll admit is just speculation).  But even with all your works your position is pure speculation as well.

[Doohickie]

35 minutes ago, Srw1525 said:

Just got to thinking, What are we going to talk about once Eichel does get traded?

The Sabres Cup win.

[Flashsabre]

https://twitter.com/mayorNHL/status/1454607679125540864?s=20

[SabresVet]

4 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

But have we? Have we seen the effort with consistency in the past 8 to 10 yrs? Somethings different, and not just a new season imho.

Sweat doesn't count...results do. 

My main issue with the Sabres' rebuild is they have a significant lack of talent among their top 6 forwards and in goal.  They can be the hardest working team in hockey and it won't matter.  Adams has a long way to go improving this team and its minor league system.  Here's to hoping it happens.    

4 hours ago, Jävə Keith said:

I have posted about this in detail before. Too exhausted to try to convince those not open to it.  My career has been all about leadership development and developing servant leaders. Jack is clearly not currently a leader, especially not a servant leader (serving, being a resource, and building-up those he is in charge of leading).

To Jack's credit, it's not necessarily his fault. He has not been mentored on how to lead men, and has never had to lead before being wrongly made Captain of the Buffalo Sabres.  He has always just been the most talented player on every team he has been on. Elite talent does not equal leadership.

Perhaps Jack could still be a Sabre If he could return to the team with humility, not wearing the C (originally I said he needs to surrender the letter, but Donny & GMKA took care of that already), and merely be an elite talent, show up every day to serve his teammates and follow/submit to the leaders around him.  Not many men are mature enough & capable of pulling that off well. Definitely not a young man who has had everyone worship at his feet most of his life.

The best thing for the Sabres is to capitalize the best return they can for the asset of elite talent that is Jack Eichel.  Bring in a mature proven leader of men who knows his role is as a short term "C" to mentor & develop the next eventual Captain to be on our team (perhaps Cozens or someone not yet a Sabre). But that young captain-to-be must 1st be shown & developed as a leader, then 2nd show/prove/EARN his letter "C."

Jack never earned it. That's not his fault. He was set up to fail by being improperly "knighted" with the "C."  

As the ultimate leader, as General Manager, Adams has clearly come to same conclusion and has been making the hard decisions that are best for the long term & sustainable success for our beloved hocky franchise.

Patience is sadly what is in order for us as fans, while we let him execute the strategic plan that was launched the moment Krueger was fired.  Get the best Return on Asset (ROA) for Jack and build the future organization the right way, with the right selfless/hard-working culture, and the right leadership (A HC that develops players, and then developing the leadership skills in the future proven/earnex Captain.

I consider personality and temperaments in assessing employees.  In my experience, some people are high performers but require significant support around them.  Those types may annoy at times, but they'll deliver when needed.  .    

Because I see a young man who is among the hardest working in his field but demands people around him perform at a high level.  I've never said he's a boy scout or on par with Steve Yzerman in leadership, but people are blaming him for the inherent problems in an organization which existed before he arrived.

Jack is the best forward this team has had in decades.  It's funny how "experts" have psychoanalyzed him, determined he's a horrible person, and think getting rid of him is the best option.  And I'd like to believe it's because Kevyn Adams said he wants, "players who want to be here."

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, jad1 said:

How are the Pegulas legally on the hook for Eichel's health the rest of his life if he gets ADR?

ADR isn't some back alley operation.  There are plenty of medical professionals out there who certify that ADR is a safe alternative to spinal fusion.  The Pegulas could easily defer to those medical professionals and be off the hook for any of Eichel's career medical issues.

Conversely, since there are medical opinions out there supporting ADR as the better procedure for long-term health than a spinal fusion, the Pegulas could be in jeopardy of being sued if they force Eichel to get a spinal fusion and Eichel has to get additional surgeries post retirement.

The Sabres are pushing spinal fusion because they don't want to be the first to sign off on ADR for an NHL player.  Not wanting to be the test case in the league isn't the same as saying that ADR is not a legimate medical procedure.

And let's not act like spinal fusions are a common thing in the NHL.  It's not like there are dozens of players in the NHL who have undergone spinal fusions and now are producing at pre-injury levels.

The injury is career threatening, and spinal fusion isn't a silver-bullet cure.  If the Sabres want the best return for Eichel, I think teams are going to have to see Eichel back on the ice.  That means that Eichel gets either of the surgeries and proves he still can play at his previous level.  There's huge risk in that for the Sabres, regardless of the surgery.

On the other hand, Adams can let the other team take the risk, if he accepts something like a 7th round prospect and a late 1st round pick for Eichel.

 

 

I understand this is a worst case scenario.  I also understand that my legal knowledge is limited, so some of this could be wrong.

Let us suppose the Pegulas are legally coerced into allowing the operation.  Eichel gets it.  The Sabres trade him.  Then Eichel gets permanent spinal damage at the location of the ADR or the ADR  is determined to be a contributor to the injury.  Because  he got the operation while employed by the Sabres, Pegula could be held liable for Eichel for the rest of his life, even though he was required to allow it by some legal decision.

That is why I agree with the Pegulas not to allow ADR.  It is unproven in this scenario.

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

https://twitter.com/mayorNHL/status/1454607679125540864?s=20

Next they are going to leak a name that is interesting as a 2ndary piece, say Tuch.

And we’ll get kinda excited, as in “ooh, Tuch and Krebs and a 1st isn’t a bad haul.”

And then we will find out that Tuch is the main piece. There is no Krebs and no 1st.

That’s how it worked with Reinhart. That’s how it worked with O’Reilly.

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by dudacek

[Flashsabre]

Imagine being Peyton Krebs right now. Must be refreshing his phone every 5 seconds.

[triumph_communes]

Vegas would have to move 5 mil just to make the trade happen. Tuch doesn’t count he’s on LTIR. Probably where the snag is from, the only player without a clause is Smith and he may not want to go to Buffalo

[Shootica]

6 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Vegas would have to move 5 mil just to make the trade happen. Tuch doesn’t count he’s on LTIR. Probably where the snag is from, the only player without a clause is Smith and he may not want to go to Buffalo

Jack would also be on LTIR so there isn't an immediate concern there.  Hitting the cap floor is an issue for us, and they'd have to figure out the cap ceiling once he returns.

[dudacek]

They signed Whitecloud to term, making sure their top 4 is locked up, and Hutton to fill out their 3rd pair. That makes a D prospect expendable.

They nabbed Amadio to be a depth C. That makes a centre expendable.

They need to move about $5 million. That’s Theodore or Smith.

Could Krebs, Hague, Smith and a 1st actually have been the ask all summer and Vegas has finally decided to pay? 

Or maybe maybe Adams conceded a lesser prospect? Maybe conditions on the pick based on Jack’s health?

Edited October 31, 2021 by dudacek

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Just fyi my brother, granted he's over 50, just had neck fusion surgery... 2 levels 5 and 6.  Will let you know how he progresses.  

Was your brother's injury associated from a traumatic event or simply wear and tear? What time frame did the doctors say give for the rehab? If any of these questions are too private I will respect that. Just curious? 

[spndnchz]

5 hours ago, Jävə Keith said:

I have posted about this in detail before. Too exhausted to try to convince those not open to it.  My career has been all about leadership development and developing servant leaders. Jack is clearly not currently a leader, especially not a servant leader (serving, being a resource, and building-up those he is in charge of leading).

To Jack's credit, it's not necessarily his fault. He has not been mentored on how to lead men, and has never had to lead before being wrongly made Captain of the Buffalo Sabres.  He has always just been the most talented player on every team he has been on. Elite talent does not equal leadership.

Perhaps Jack could still be a Sabre If he could return to the team with humility, not wearing the C (originally I said he needs to surrender the letter, but Donny & GMKA took care of that already), and merely be an elite talent, show up every day to serve his teammates and follow/submit to the leaders around him.  Not many men are mature enough & capable of pulling that off well. Definitely not a young man who has had everyone worship at his feet most of his life.

The best thing for the Sabres is to capitalize the best return they can for the asset of elite talent that is Jack Eichel.  Bring in a mature proven leader of men who knows his role is as a short term "C" to mentor & develop the next eventual Captain to be on our team (perhaps Cozens or someone not yet a Sabre). But that young captain-to-be must 1st be shown & developed as a leader, then 2nd show/prove/EARN his letter "C."

Jack never earned it. That's not his fault. He was set up to fail by being improperly "knighted" with the "C."  

As the ultimate leader, as General Manager, Adams has clearly come to same conclusion and has been making the hard decisions that are best for the long term & sustainable success for our beloved hocky franchise.

Patience is sadly what is in order for us as fans, while we let him execute the strategic plan that was launched the moment Krueger was fired.  Get the best Return on Asset (ROA) for Jack and build the future organization the right way, with the right selfless/hard-working culture, and the right leadership (A HC that develops players, and then developing the leadership skills in the future proven/earnex Captain.

You lost me at “to Jack’s credit”

[Doohickie]

32 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

My main issue with the Sabres' rebuild is they have a significant lack of talent among their top 6 forwards and in goal.  They can be the hardest working team in hockey and it won't matter.  Adams has a long way to go improving this team and its minor league system.  Here's to hoping it happens.    

They will upgrade 25% of the team by the start of next season just based on players already in the system.  JJ, Quinn, Weissbach, Laaksonen, Power, and if not UPL, possibly Portillo or Levi.  I think it's highly likely that the Michiganders make the jump directly to the NHL and do fine.

And that doesn't even take into account anything coming back in an Eichel trade.

[Flashsabre]

28 minutes ago, Shootica said:

Jack would also be on LTIR so there isn't an immediate concern there.  Hitting the cap floor is an issue for us, and they'd have to figure out the cap ceiling once he returns.

Vegas has to have $10 million available to accept Jack’s contract before it can go on LTIR.  If not, the NHL will not approve the deal.

[klos1963]

49 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Sweat doesn't count...results do. 

My main issue with the Sabres' rebuild is they have a significant lack of talent among their top 6 forwards and in goal.  They can be the hardest working team in hockey and it won't matter.  Adams has a long way to go improving this team and its minor league system.  Here's to hoping it happens.    

I consider personality and temperaments in assessing employees.  In my experience, some people are high performers but require significant support around them.  Those types may annoy at times, but they'll deliver when needed.  .    

Because I see a young man who is among the hardest working in his field but demands people around him perform at a high level.  I've never said he's a boy scout or on par with Steve Yzerman in leadership, but people are blaming him for the inherent problems in an organization which existed before he arrived.

Jack is the best forward this team has had in decades.  It's funny how "experts" have psychoanalyzed him, determined he's a horrible person, and think getting rid of him is the best option.  And I'd like to believe it's because Kevyn Adams said he wants, "players who want to be here."

I was as pessimistic as anyone going into the season, but I think you are wrong. Our prospects seem to be off to great starts, Quinn and Peterka seem like top 6 prospects, we'll likely get at least one more with an Eichel trade and Mitts , Cozens and Olofsson might also make it. Goaltending is still probably an issue, but can be addressed next offseason.  I'm encouraged by what we are seeing. Plus we finally have a good coach.

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

I was as pessimistic as anyone going into the season, but I think you are wrong. Our prospects seem to be off to great starts, Quinn and Peterka seem like top 6 prospects, we'll likely get at least one more with an Eichel trade and Mitts , Cozens and Olofsson might also make it. Goaltending is still probably an issue, but can be addressed next offseason.  I'm encouraged by what we are seeing. Plus we finally have a good coach.

Olofsson is a top 6 forward. He has 39 goals and 86 points in 123 NHL games.

Mitts may establish himself as one this year.

Cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Rosen and Poltapov have that potential.

We hope to add 2 more from an Eichel trade and this year’s top pick.

He’s right in terms of there being no Eichels and no sure things in that group.

But Im hopeful there may be enough Sam Reinharts and a Ryan O’Reilly or 2.