Fire Kevyn Adams

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

Point 1 ... Adams went to Jack and talked about Jack sticking around and trying to make him happy.  Adams then made some trades and signings to try one last kick at the can.  It failed, but he did execute that plan.

Point 2 ... signing Ullie was all about having a familiar anchor for 2 more years.  It was not about retaining Ullie at any cost becasue he was the goalie of now and in the future.  Ullie bolted so part 2 of that plan was initiated.  Same plan ... someone to hold the fort while goalie prospects that were going to be the goalies of the future further developed.  Again, this is not a tank.  Signing the goalies that Adams did is not a tank move.

Point 3 ... not a tank ...

Point 4 ... not a tank ...

Point 5 ... not a tank ...

...

No one said retain Ullmark at all costs.  Keeping Ullmark was about keeping adequate goaltending as the kids developed.  Others could have done that just as well and that is the point.  It was the right move for KA to try to keep him and he was right to bolt.  KA should have known that was a likely (even probable) outcome and had an adequate substitute when Ullmark bolted.  He didn't and that is why we are here.  Tanking is a very different plan then keeping Ullmark.  Try to spin it any way you want, but as I illustrated above the difference between adequate goaltending for this team and not is night and day.  It's not the defense, it's the goaltending and the stats clearly bare that out.  Putting decent goalies in and this team wins, putting Tokarski, Dell, JJ, Hutton and Subban in and you are tanking the team's chances for success.  Also relying on a 40 year old goalie to anchor the team was simply stupid as I also illustrated above.  Only 3 have ever played 50% of a season and only one, the greatest goaltender of all time in Hasek, did it well.

[pastajoe]

16 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

Point 1 ... Adams went to Jack and talked about Jack sticking around and trying to make him happy.  Adams then made some trades and signings to try one last kick at the can.  It failed, but he did execute that plan.

Point 2 ... signing Ullie was all about having a familiar anchor for 2 more years.  It was not about retaining Ullie at any cost becasue he was the goalie of now and in the future.  Ullie bolted so part 2 of that plan was initiated.  Same plan ... someone to hold the fort while goalie prospects that were going to be the goalies of the future further developed.  Again, this is not a tank.  Signing the goalies that Adams did is not a tank move.

Point 3 ... not a tank ...

Point 4 ... not a tank ...

Point 5 ... not a tank ...

...

It wasn’t an intentional tank, but given the lack of moves after Anderson got hurt to secure an NHL capable starter, it is now a tank. There are backups on other teams that are better than any of the Sabres goalies.

[SabresVet]

35 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

Point 1 ... Adams went to Jack and talked about Jack sticking around and trying to make him happy.  Adams then made some trades and signings to try one last kick at the can.  It failed, but he did execute that plan. 

In no world do I believe at the end of the 2019-20 season Krueger wanted to rebuild and he held most of the decision making power in this organization.  He probably talked to Adams about acquiring Hall in UFA and maintaining much of the status quo.  That would be good for Krueger (who wasn't here to rebuild) and satisfy Eichel.  

Adams obtained the lone decision maker role (Aside from GM in the Sky Terry) when Krueger was allowed to be fired.  At that point, I'm confident ownership could see that the only way left was a rebuild. 

And here we are.  It'd be one thing if this team were in proven GM hands and had made the playoffs within the past 2-3 seasons.  The onus now falls on Adams, because this has been his team from the day since Ralph was fired.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

It wasn’t an intentional tank, but given the lack of moves after Anderson got hurt to secure an NHL capable starter, it is now a tank. There are backups on other teams that are better than any of the Sabres goalies.

It was a tank from the onset. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It was a tank from the onset. 

WRONG!!

That said, I love you, you big lug.  I admire you for sticking to your guns, although they are pop-guns.

[Thorny]

18 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I would not fire him now, but there is a real case for doing so IMHO, and it goes like this:

- KA’s choices at goalie indicate either an unacceptable inability to evaluate talent at the most critical position or a decision to tank this season.

- If he’s decided to tank, he’s made a stupid decision that is highly likely to mire the franchise in the same quicksand it’s been in for the last 8 years.

- Even worse, he made that decision despite having the results of the last stupid decision to tank staring him in the face.

- In addition to the tank decision, he had the most precious asset in the NHL — a franchise #1 C — and he couldn’t keep him happy.  And now he wants to tank to have a chance to replace that franchise C?  No thank you.

I don’t necessarily agree with all of the above, but it’s not from outer space.  

If you take this stuff and add it to another near-bottom of the league finish next year, making 3 straight years - yes, I'd think we should fire him. Results matter most and right now, the results are terrible. Our record has been worse under Granato than Krueger. If we weren't tanking this year, the results, considering how obviously we needed better goaltending, probably do speak to an argument that he could be fired right now, though I don't fall down on that side of things currently. If the plan was to lose, as much as I am against that plan...he should get next year too, IMO.

But I keep talking about the coming offseason. If that time comes and it looks like the plan for next season is again clearly not to win, I think I'd be on the "he should go" train, next summer, after that becomes apparent.

If they view next year as another development year with zero expectations, this is already a sinking ship. 

16 hours ago, JoeSchmoe said:

Remember all those prospects we had in the system before KA was hired... Neither do I.

At no point was KA trying to win this year. This is a grow the prospects year... both ones that are on the team, and the ones that aren't here yet.

Maybe they should fire Adams and bring in a guy that would trade a 1st round pick for a 3rd string goalie and a salary dump. That'll get this rebuild kickstarted, eh?

Prospects very often become suspects - this isn't a strong counterpoint for Adams when compared to the results overall. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Here is one of my biggest frustrations with the lack of goaltending.  Hockey is hard and all players, especially young ones, make mistakes.  Without decent goaltending those mistakes end up in your own net.  

This harms the development of the young players.  They end up playings scared and that leads to more mistakes and ultimately a loss of confidence.  

We are seeing that right now across the lineup, especially on guys like Dahlin, who carries so much expectations.  He is afraid to make a mistake instead of allowing his talent to show through.

Edited December 6, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I would be more on Adams side if he was more honest with the fanbase. Not TOTALLY honest, nobody expects that from any GM in any sport, but a little more. Just lay it out. Stop saying we have a plan and lay the plan out. Don't give us bull about the goaltending, admit it's a tank year (don't expect it to be called that, but use the right buzz words to dance around it so you can admit you never tried hard to get a goalie). 

Just lay out what the plan is and then we can decide if we want to go through that with them and also hold them accountable to that plan. 

Enough of the "we know things the fans don't" stuff. We deserve a little - a little - more after having put up with this crap for so long. 

I think he was pretty honest. One of his first big interviews this past offseason, I was posting about how he was using words like "development" for this coming year (along with the blinding light stuff) and without a single mention of results being important, honestly I thought it seemed pretty obvious winning wasn't being prioritized. 

3 hours ago, inkman said:

Here here.  I think GMKA’s original plan was to have Ullmark return.  When Boston offered Linus that contract, Adams punted.  Considering we have UPL, Levi and Portillo waiting in the wings, I don’t blame him for that.  His next plan was for UPL to take over the goaltending reigns.  After a suboptimal preseason, that plan was quickly altered.  Anderson became the main guy with Toker backing him up until UPL was ready.  Not ideal but not disastrous.  Then Anderson gets hurt, Toker goes down and we are in goalie hell.  Hard to kill GMKA when plans A,B,C and D didn’t work out. 

It's actually quite easy, really, when the reason those plans failed were his fault haha. 

Even if you view Boston's deal to Ullmark as "unmatchable", it certainly wasn't for the reason you mentioned. Goalies years and years away means nothing in that equation, literally nothing. If his back up plan was so pathetic that it failed (UPL), that's on him. If the next back up plan was a 40 year old, that was always doomed to fail, and that's on him. 

Tokarski was obviously not good enough, injury or no. 

The goaltending is on Adams. I don't use the "wrong" word very often, it's too objective. But if someone thinks the goaltending isn't on Adams, that person is wrong. 

[Eleven]

Just now, Let's Go B-Lo said:

You take a goalie every year somewhere in the draft even if it's late. Every year. They take so long to develop and are such a crap shoot you almost have to. You always need a backup and if you somehow end up picking a bunch of studs it gives you ammo to trade. You leave them in junior or the NCAA or overseas then you still have 4 developmental positions you can use in your own organization. They won't all pan out and most of the ones that do won't for 4-5 years anyway.

Yes.  And that's not all on Adams.  But the plan going into this year was inadequate.

[pastajoe]

3 minutes ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

You take a goalie every year somewhere in the draft even if it's late. Every year. They take so long to develop and are such a crap shoot you almost have to. You always need a backup and if you somehow end up picking a bunch of studs it gives you ammo to trade. You leave them in junior or the NCAA or overseas then you still have 4 developmental positions you can use in your own organization. They won't all pan out and most of the ones that do won't for 4-5 years anyway.

I wish they would have used a final round pick on the Giant Goalie Son, Owen Parker. Great local story and I’ll hate if he ends up drafted by one of our rivals.

[Zamboni]

Ahhhhh …. A discussion as old as time… It was a tank, it was not a tank, it was a tank, it was not a tank, it was a tank, it was not a tank. The useless endeavor of trying to change one’s mind of it not being a tank versus its a tank.

Is anybody seriously typing things regarding the topic of a “tank”, and as they are typing they are thinking “well this point that I’m making is going to definitely convince them to finally agree with my point of view!” 😂

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, SabresVet said:

A currently out of work NHL executive isn't about to take a job where you're set up to fail.  Put it this way: what if you're a recently unemployed but successful sales manager being recruited by a company with 5 years of declining sales, an aging product line, and has credit issues.  Oh, and the market has major competitors without those issues.  You taking that job?  You think you can work within those operating parameters?  They're going to pay you 100k to start, but upper management has shown little willingness to change and expects you to create miracles.  

So you, if it was you, would prefer to be unemployed rather than be paid 1, 2 maybe 3 million a year for a nice executive job with perks and an expense account? Really?

You underestimate the egos on some of these guys. They all think they can be the guy to turn it around and then be named the greatest guy ever. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I feel like they do have a plan. But people can't bear to wait another 3 seasons for it to develop. That itchiness for a quick fix got us where we are now. ZFG GM Tim Murray emptying our prospect pool for nut jobs and bad eggs. (You can guess who I'm referring to.)

Nothing ever works out exactly as you plan, and the goaltending issues this year are an example of that. But we have players that are shining at every level: NHL, AHL, college and juniors. We just have to fight the urge to do something rash for a quick fix.

To be honest my bigger worry is whether Buffalo is a viable sports market going forward. I think we all took for granted our friends across the border. But that extra couple hundred thousand population makes a big difference for not only the Sabres but the Bandits.

It's really sad too. When I was 11 I used to pedal my bike over the Peace Bridge and it was no big deal. Now it's a freaking interrogation. We are getting too used to not visiting each other. We can't lose that closeness. If people feel like it's too much bother to come to town for games I don't know what our long term prospects are.

I'm with you on both parts of this. Personally, I know this will take several years and I'm okay with this year being the bottom, but I do want to see a forward progression sooner than later, and a decent goalie is needed for that, not just waiting on the kids. I personally believe you start with the goalie(s), you build the team culture and then you add the talent bit by bit into that existing culture. I see Seattle had that idea. I'm very curious to see which team rises faster and endures in the long run because it's 2 completely contrasting plans.

On the border thing, idk what it's like now but I know I currently live only 5 minutes from the border and haven't crossed it in a couple years now. Used to go to Bellingham often and occasionally Seattle and even Portland just for the heck of it. Growing up in Hamilton Ontario we used to cross over to Buffalo all the time. I still remember how the Buffalo people bought us all drinks and treated us like celebrities when we had that hostage crisis thing and some got out with the Canadian embassy. Had nothing to do with me of course, but somehow ALL Canadians were royalty for a good 6 months or so. That was fun. 

The best time to smuggle duty free across the border was the evenings of Sabres games. Put a jersey on, know the score and they'd just wave you through with the line up, but that was a long long time ago. 

[SDS]

15 hours ago, Brawndo said:

As far as missing out on the Ned Trade, let’s just say attempted poachers will be prosecuted. 

What does this mean?

[Brawndo]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

What does this mean?

 

[K-9]

4 hours ago, pastajoe said:

It wasn’t an intentional tank, but given the lack of moves after Anderson got hurt to secure an NHL capable starter, it is now a tank. There are backups on other teams that are better than any of the Sabres goalies.

What is the acceptable price to acquire one of those backups? And is it possible that, given the dire situation, teams will insist on a dramatic over pay for their backups? Should Adams pay the price at any cost? 

[mjd1001]

I am happy with just about everything that is happening this season, of course with the exception of the results of the games the last few weeks.

I don't know what "the plan" is exactly, but I am very happy with how Kevin Adams is handling things.

-Get a respectable return for an Injured Eichel who didn't want to be here, for Sam who didn't want to be here, and for Risto who very few people wanted here.  I am very happy with the overall returns for them.

-Keep most of the young guys in the minors, resist the urge to call them up until they have a lot of time in Rochester.  Good so far on that.

-See some progress from players we didn't expect much out of last year. Thompson, Cozens and Asplund are progressing, Bryson has shown flashes...Okposo Skinner and Girgensons appear to be more productive than most thought they would be. Most of the rest of the guys on the roster are on a 'try out' for 1 or 2 spots next year.

-Dahlin.  He has mad some very bad plays for sure, but overall I am happy with his offensive production and they are sticking with him. One thing I think most people don't realize is, his Value in the D-zone isn't limited to some young/boneheaded mistakes he makes..but he actually does a GOOD job in the D-zone by carrying or passing the puck out of the zone better than just about anyone on the D-unit we have seen here in a long time. Yes, he has to stop making mistakes, but if that comes with time I am encouraged with everything else in his game.

-Goalies.  They need Tokarski to keep playing like he has AND someone up to step up as well. Medium term they need someone better than Tokarski for 1-2 years.  This is an issue right now, but I'm not sure if there is an immediate solution.

Overall though, I'm happy with about 95% of what Adams has done/is doing, in my mind SO FAR into his GM career he is the best GM the sabres have had since Darcy.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I am happy with just about everything that is happening this season, of course with the exception of the results of the games the last few weeks.

I don't know what "the plan" is exactly, but I am very happy with how Kevin Adams is handling things.

-Get a respectable return for an Injured Eichel who didn't want to be here, for Sam who didn't want to be here, and for Risto who very few people wanted here.  I am very happy with the overall returns for them.

-Keep most of the young guys in the minors, resist the urge to call them up until they have a lot of time in Rochester.  Good so far on that.

-See some progress from players we didn't expect much out of last year. Thompson, Cozens and Asplund are progressing, Bryson has shown flashes...Okposo Skinner and Girgensons appear to be more productive than most thought they would be. Most of the rest of the guys on the roster are on a 'try out' for 1 or 2 spots next year.

-Dahlin.  He has mad some very bad plays for sure, but overall I am happy with his offensive production and they are sticking with him. One thing I think most people don't realize is, his Value in the D-zone isn't limited to some young/boneheaded mistakes he makes..but he actually does a GOOD job in the D-zone by carrying or passing the puck out of the zone better than just about anyone on the D-unit we have seen here in a long time. Yes, he has to stop making mistakes, but if that comes with time I am encouraged with everything else in his game.

-Goalies.  They need Tokarski to keep playing like he has AND someone up to step up as well. Medium term they need someone better than Tokarski for 1-2 years.  This is an issue right now, but I'm not sure if there is an immediate solution.

Overall though, I'm happy with about 95% of what Adams has done/is doing, in my mind SO FAR into his GM career he is the best GM the sabres have had since Darcy.

I find it ironic that the very same people that want to launch Rasmus into the sun are the one who complain about the Sabres spending way too much time in their own zone. It feels like he is involved in more good zone exits than any three other Sabres defencemen combined.

[mjd1001]

51 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I find it ironic that the very same people that want to launch Rasmus into the sun are the one who complain about the Sabres spending way too much time in their own zone. It feels like he is involved in more good zone exits than any three other Sabres defencemen combined.

Exactly. He doesn't have to become Pronger or Chelios or even a Mike Ramsey level lock down D-man to be the most valuable guy on the roster in his own zone.  With experience he will/should learn to anticipate the play better. His quickness should allow him to get to a lot of loose pucks, and then there might not be anyone in recent memory better at getting it out of the zone than him.

He doesn't need to eliminate mistakes, just cut down on them...and then pair him with a partner who IS rock solid positionally, and Dahlin could be more valuable to this team than anyone because the best way to play Defense is to make sure you get the puck out of your zone, which he looks to be very good at and is getting better.

Edited December 6, 2021 by mjd1001

[Crusader1969]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I find it ironic that the very same people that want to launch Rasmus into the sun are the one who complain about the Sabres spending way too much time in their own zone. It feels like he is involved in more good zone exits than any three other Sabres defencemen combined.

It doesn’t fit their narrative. Some people will never like him because he doesn’t throw his body around.  Others will come around once the defensive lapses stop occurring as frequently as they are 

 

 

[Marvin]

30 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

It doesn’t fit their narrative. Some people will never like him because he doesn’t throw his body around.  Others will come around once the defensive lapses stop occurring as frequently as they are 

If there is one thing I wish I could cure the fan base of, it would be its obsession with defencemen being tough above all else, no matter how bad the player is at other phases of the game.

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

If there is one thing I wish I could cure the fan base of, it would be its obsession with defencemen being tough above all else, no matter how bad the player is at other phases of the game.

I agree with you. I truly do.  If I never saw a fight in a hockey game again, and barely saw any hitting BUT I saw a lot of scoring chances and goals with end to end rushes, I'd be 100% happy with this sport.  But with that said, different people like different things.  Just as much as I like skating and scoring and don't even care about seeing big hits.....there are other people that I understand could care less about a smooth skating forward compared to seeing a 6'3" tall 230lb guy who will drop hits all over the ice and drop the gloves a couple times a month.  A lot of fans started liking hockey when it was a lot 'tougher' and that is probably a large part of why they liked it to begin with.

To be honest, I don't want my D-men to be the hitters on my team. I want my forward to be the hitters.  To me the key to D-zone play is positioning.  Most times when a D-man makes a hit, he is risking taking himself out of the play, leading to chaos in your own end.  I want the D-men to be on their skates, reading the play, ready to react the instant they can get to a loose puck or break up a pass and get the puck out of my own end.  The one  exception is I want one true huge Ogre of a D-man who can move anyone out from the front of the net when shorthanded. He can be my short handed specialist, but can be on my 3rd pair otherwise.

My forwards? THOSE are the guys I want to hit, to create chaos in the Offensive zone.  Look at the past 2-3 seasons the Okposo and Girgensons (when he is playing) line. They play physical and hit along the board in the O-zone, and often times THAT is the thing that keeps the puck in the zone. Give me 1 or 2 physical hitting wingers on my forward line with a sniper (or at least someone with good hands) to go near the net, and I think you have a winning line.

Edited December 6, 2021 by mjd1001

[pastajoe]

4 hours ago, K-9 said:

What is the acceptable price to acquire one of those backups? And is it possible that, given the dire situation, teams will insist on a dramatic over pay for their backups? Should Adams pay the price at any cost? 

Dallas has five NHL goalies under contract. A 4th round pick and Dell would be sufficient. Or a 3rd round pick. Even a 2nd if one of the better ones like Georgiev or Korposalo.

[Crusader1969]

2 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

If there is one thing I wish I could cure the fan base of, it would be its obsession with defencemen being tough above all else, no matter how bad the player is at other phases of the game.

Hating the good players is another obsession

[K-9]

4 hours ago, pastajoe said:

Dallas has five NHL goalies under contract. A 4th round pick and Dell would be sufficient. Or a 3rd round pick. Even a 2nd if one of the better ones like Georgiev or Korposalo.

Dell is persona non grata in any trade talks; a total non starter even as a throw in. 

Which Stars goalie is Dallas going to give up for that pick? Oettinger and Holtby are hot, carrying the load in a platoon system and currently untouchable, Bishop hasn’t played since 2019, is on a conditioning stint in the AHL, and has a 10 team no trade clause to boot, while Khudobin has a 4 team no trade list (and I suspect Buffalo is on both lists). And Khudobin is struggling mightily, anyway. Not sure who the fifth Dallas goalie is, but if you can give me a name I’d be happy to look into him.