Fire Kevyn Adams

[dudacek]

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ya. I mean it's not logical to say that one can't have an issue with the Plan until the initiator's chosen timeline has passed - what if a GM said they needed 10 years to turn it around. We need to be patient for 10 years? I disagree with KA's plan. To your point - I do think the plan should be recognized, everyone knows I don't like it but I'm not posting about how he should be fired. Indeed, I try to frame my arguments through the context of the plan Adams himself is initiating. 

It is my opinion though that, under that "rebuild" plan, a second year where winning doesn't matter would be a crucial mistake. Regardless of what a specific GM says his timeline is, everyones mileage will vary in terms of how long they feel comfortable waiting for the results they'd like to see. 

I don't like the plan, but I'm clearly giving it the benefit of the doubt. I can be against the plan, but still evaluate its results through the prism of what I believe a rebuild plan should look like. Even with it being, again, not the plan I'd have chosen. 

Agreed. Mostly.

The caveat for me is that I don’t think Adams is operating under the stark premise of “winning doesn’t matter” right now even.

His premise is more “winning now doesn’t matter as much as winning in the future.”

The crux of this discussion is that there is a sliding scale to that. We are fully on the “future” end of that scale right now. But we have to be moving toward the now. For me, the “how fast” has yet to be determined.

But next year, it definitely has to be closer.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Agreed. Mostly.

The caveat for me is that I don’t think Adams is operating under the premise stark premise of “winning doesn’t matter” right now even.

His premise is more “winning now doesn’t matter as much as winning in the future.”

The crux of this discussion is that there is a sliding scale to that. We are fully on the “future” end of that scale right now. But we have to be moving toward the now. For me, the “how fast” has yet to be determined.

But next year, it definitely has to be closer.

 

Because of how the Ullmark situation unfolded and what we were willing to pay failing that, I've been under the impression winning has been very near the bottom of the priorities list this season, personally. I've maintained it's not a tank, Adams doesn't WANT to lose. But not winning is wholly accepted. 

Indeed, Adams is smart enough to know that working subject to his own priorities would lead to that result. 

[nfreeman]

40 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It is my opinion though that, under that "rebuild" plan, a second year where winning doesn't matter would be a crucial mistake. Regardless of what a specific GM says his timeline is, everyones mileage will vary in terms of how long they feel comfortable waiting for the results they'd like to see.

I agree and would also point out that not expecting to win next year would effectively be giving KA a 3-year pass, since his first year was a DFL debacle despite spending close to the cap.

There's a reasonable argument to be made that giving him a pass for his first year in light of inherited lousy coach, injured/wanting out Eichel, huge disappointment Hall, covid, austerity measures in FO and cost-cutting apparently ordered by TP -- in fact, it's one of the strongest cases I can remember for giving a GM a pass for a crappy season.  But even so, it's more than fair to hold KA accountable for the 2020 decisions not to extend Reino and not to upgrade the goaltending.

[sabrefanday1]

Pretty obvious that any team that can and will succeed needs a bonafide number one center who is either captain or at very least a leader and is or is close to superstar status...Jack was suppose to be that guy but now this team desperately needs to be able to draft a stud next year so I have no doubt this is a tank disguised as a "putting in time until our young guys are ready" thing.

  I have no doubt we are also waiting for those young guys to be ready but after the complete mess of our goaltending situation clearly KA does not care about winning this year. There is no possible way he (KA) can be that naive or stupid to really believe this team can win many games with the goalies he has signed. I am kinda surprised he didn't re-sign old one-eyed Hutton mind you...

  

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Because of how the Ullmark situation unfolded and what we were willing to pay failing that, I've been under the impression winning has been very near the bottom of the priorities list this season, personally. I've maintained it's not a tank, Adams doesn't WANT to lose. But not winning is wholly accepted. 

Indeed, Adams is smart enough to know that working subject to his own priorities would lead to that result. 

I think what’s different between Adams this year and Murray in 2014/15 is that for Adams, the development of young players already in the organization supersedes a higher draft pick.

The JAGs were hand-picked to be known “good guys” and they were sold on the idea that “come in, conduct yourself like a pro and you will get a great chance to resurrect your NHL career.”

Which is a heckuva lot different than “just guys” just brought in and basically given the message “zero ##### given” about you now, or in the future, or on anything other than finishing last.

Edited December 10, 2021 by dudacek

[thewookie1]

Just now, nfreeman said:

I agree and would also point out that not expecting to win next year would effectively be giving KA a 3-year pass, since his first year was a DFL debacle despite spending close to the cap.

There's a reasonable argument to be made that giving him a pass for his first year in light of inherited lousy coach, injured/wanting out Eichel, huge disappointment Hall, covid, austerity measures in FO and cost-cutting apparently ordered by TP -- in fact, it's one of the strongest cases I can remember for giving a GM a pass for a crappy season.  But even so, it's more than fair to hold KA accountable for the 2020 decisions not to extend Reino and not to upgrade the goaltending.

Pretty much this, I expect him to augment this team this upcoming offseason; for instance getting a competent pair of goalies to at very least carry us to our next goalie. And bringing in a vet Dman who can mentor Power, Dahlin, etc. (Letang would be my preference, give 2x9mil) Then compete for the playoffs; I doubt we'd make it but I want a competitive team akin to Detroit this year.

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I agree and would also point out that not expecting to win next year would effectively be giving KA a 3-year pass, since his first year was a DFL debacle despite spending close to the cap.

There's a reasonable argument to be made that giving him a pass for his first year in light of inherited lousy coach, injured/wanting out Eichel, huge disappointment Hall, covid, austerity measures in FO and cost-cutting apparently ordered by TP -- in fact, it's one of the strongest cases I can remember for giving a GM a pass for a crappy season.  But even so, it's more than fair to hold KA accountable for the 2020 decisions not to extend Reino and not to upgrade the goaltending.

Agreed in full - and I'd also add that those factors you outlined that contribute to a reasonable free pass being given to Adams, by the same token illustrate why that particular season doesn't exist as a strong argument for why a more balanced approach for the now couldn't have been possible. It was a pretty big outlier of a year, and to me does not represent conclusive proof that we NEEDED to go long-scale rebuild. 

Basically, I don't believe any plan that included a component of "winning now" was necessarily doomed to fail. Even though THAT season, was. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think what’s different between Adams this year and Murray in 2014/15 is that for Adams, the development of young players already in the organization supersedes a higher draft pick.

The JAGs were hand-picked to be known “good guys” and they were sold on the idea that “come in, conduct yourself like a pro and you will get a great chance to resurrect your NHL career.”

Which is a heckuva lot different than “just guys” just brought in and basically given the message “zero ##### given” about you now, or in the future, or on anything other than finishing last.

Ya - I don't think a high pick is the goal. It's the expected result once the priorities have been implemented. 

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Agreed in full - and I'd also add that those factors you outlined that contribute to a reasonable free pass being given to Adams, by the same token illustrate why that particular season doesn't exist as a strong argument for why a more balanced approach for the now couldn't have been possible. It was a pretty big outlier of a year, and to me does not represent conclusive proof that we NEEDED to go long-scale rebuild. 

Basically, I don't believe any plan that included a component of "winning now" was necessarily doomed to fail. Even though THAT season, was. 

We NEEDED to go on a long-scale rebuild because Jack Eichel demanded a trade, full stop.

The fact that Reinhart and Risto were the only other veterans worth much and didn’t want to return either cemented that.

I gotta say that what we learned from Jack post-trade cleared away my most significant concerns about Adams.

Edited December 10, 2021 by dudacek

[nfreeman]

35 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Agreed in full - and I'd also add that those factors you outlined that contribute to a reasonable free pass being given to Adams, by the same token illustrate why that particular season doesn't exist as a strong argument for why a more balanced approach for the now couldn't have been possible. It was a pretty big outlier of a year, and to me does not represent conclusive proof that we NEEDED to go long-scale rebuild. 

Basically, I don't believe any plan that included a component of "winning now" was necessarily doomed to fail. Even though THAT season, was. 

 

Well, I think it depends on what is meant by "major rebuild".  I think this team was deeply flawed and needed a major rebuild.  You may be defining it differently, if you view a major rebuild as being mutually exclusive with the elements you mentioned upthread:

Quote

I would have kept Reinhart, payed to keep Linus [or better goaltending than the existing train wreck], and sought better depth than the JAGS we brought in. Most importantly, the new core would be under the impressions that winning this year is important. 

I think a major rebuild can, and should, include these elements (with my tweak in bold), especially in the Sabres' case.

 

21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

We NEEDED to go on a long-scale rebuild because Jack Eichel demanded a trade, full stop.

The fact that Reinhart and Risto were the only other veterans worth much and didn’t want to return either cemented that.

I gotta say that what we learned from Jack post-trade cleared away my most significant concerns about Adams.

 

Certainly Eichel's trade demand was part of it, but IMHO it was only a part, and probably less than half.

[Thorny]

31 minutes ago, dudacek said:

We NEEDED to go on a long-scale rebuild because Jack Eichel demanded a trade, full stop.

The fact that Reinhart and Risto were the only other veterans worth much and didn’t want to return either cemented that.

I gotta say that what we learned from Jack post-trade cleared away my most significant concerns about Adams.

On this we cannot agree. 

[Archie Lee]

First I just want to say that this thread is precisely the reason that I frequent this site.  Some of the commentary and analysis, from all points of view, is simply more thoughtful and more well written than what you will ever read in a newspaper or on a sports blog.  It's just well done.  So, thanks to everyone for that.

To add my $0.02, I am firmly in the pro-Adams camp. While I don't agree with all of his decisions, I think his moves thus far have ranged from good to not terrible.  I recognize that some will view this as damning with faint praise, but after the last two GM's I find it refreshing that Adams is both consistent and calm in his decision making and mostly effective as a communicator.

I do worry about a plan that is seeing us have yet another "lost" season and where the intention is to have us, in-time, add what will be a 3rd wave of young, talented players to an environment where losing has been the norm. At some point a core group needs to emerge that you can win with and who you augment with trades, free-agents and your own entry-level players.  I really like our young NHL players (Dahlin, Joker, Bryson, Thompson, Mitts, Cozens, Asplund) but it does not seem to me that they are near ready to be the core that the organization simply augments in order to become a playoff team.  Do we just replace the so-called Jags with the Rochester crew and Power next year?  That seems like a near certain bottom 10 finish again.

On the specific topic of goaltending, while I fully support Adams I think that it is to risk credibility to argue that he has not messed this up at least a bit. If Luukkonen was clearly NHL ready as even a 2A then the off-season decisions would be at least somewhat understandable. At present though, we don't have a single true NHL goalie.  I would not advocate for making a trade like the one that Colorado made to get Kuemper, but we need an NHL goalie or this is going to be a lose-fest for the foreseeable future.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Archie Lee

[SabresVet]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Building a team and an organization properly takes time.

Firing the builder after 80 games seems premature under any circumstances. 

Firing one who came in saddled with Jason Botterill’s roster and Ralph Krueger’s coaching, who was forced to gut his hockey department and trade his franchise centrepiece during a pandemic seems utterly ridiculous. Especially when his only obvious egregious mis-step so far is his handling of the Ullmark situation and replacement.

Not sure if the industry opinion of the Sabres could get any worse, but that might do it.

It's ironic you mentioned being saddled with Jason Botterill's roster because Adams has re-signed several of his predecessor's players including Jokiharju, Mittelstadt, and Thompson, while re-signing others like Asplund, Grigensons, and Olofsson.      

Adams is a clear step up from making Russ Brandon GM of the Bills from 2008-09, but he's the outcome when ownership doesn't know people and wouldn't trust them anyway.  Their adventures in hiring executives prove they are clueless, and when someone doesn't work, they blame an NHL advisory council or player for their woes.  

Early returns do not provide a case for or against keeping Adams, but as @Thorny noted, he's an incomplete after 2 off-seasons on the job.  We'll form a better picture mid-way through next season.    

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

It's ironic you mentioned being saddled with Jason Botterill's roster because Adams has re-signed several of his predecessor's players including Jokiharju, Mittelstadt, and Thompson, while re-signing others like Asplund, Grigensons, and Olofsson.      

Adams is a clear step up from making Russ Brandon GM of the Bills from 2008-09, but he's the outcome when ownership doesn't know people and wouldn't trust them anyway.  Their adventures in hiring executives prove they are clueless, and when someone doesn't work, they blame an NHL advisory council or player for their woes.  

Early returns do not provide a case for or against keeping Adams, but as @Thorny noted, he's an incomplete after 2 off-seasons on the job.  We'll form a better picture mid-way through next season.    

Agree entirely with your conclusions.

Think it’s ironic that keeping 3 of Botterill’s pickups (Olofsson, Asplund and Girgensons predate him) is somehow being used to defend his roster-building.

35 players played for the Sabres in Botterill’s last season. 10 of them are still with the Sabres. Joki, Tage, Casey, blind man pick Rasmus Dahlin, depth defenceman Colin Miller and Jeff Skinner and his immovable contract are the only ones Botterill brought in.

[GASabresIUFAN]

53 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Agree entirely with your conclusions.

Think it’s ironic that keeping 3 of Botterill’s pickups (Olofsson, Asplund and Girgensons predate him) is somehow being used to defend his roster-building.

35 players played for the Sabres in Botterill’s last season. 10 of them are still with the Sabres. Joki, Tage, Casey, blind man pick Rasmus Dahlin, depth defenceman Colin Miller and Jeff Skinner and his immovable contract are the only ones Botterill brought in.

Dylan Cozens? Bryson? UPL? Aren't they Jbot's players on the roster as well? Aren't key prospects R2, Portillo, Samuelsson, Johnson, and Laaksonen Jbot's as well?

We can make the same conclusions about KA already.  39 players played for the Sabres in KA's first year.  Of the 10 players he brought in, only 4 remain (Tokarki, Bjork, Caggiula and Eakin), two of which were late season acquisitions, and none will be here beyond this season.  17 returnees from last year's Sabres have skated for the team this season and 19 are out of the organization completely.  Of these 17 returnees, KA will likely move on from many of them this year at the deadline or in the off-season.  

Of the 11 guys he brought in for this season, 2 are already gone and nearly all the rest will be gone by year's end.  I doubt any of Butcher, Hagg, Hayden, Subban, Dell, Anderson, or Jankowski remain here beyond this season.  I think only Hinostroza and Pysyk have a chance to remain and that is tenuous at best.  So far not a single KA acquisition has made a lasting positive impact on the team.  Many of them have contributed nothing and many more have been downright awful such as Staal, Hall, Hayden, Dell, Subban, Eakin, Bjork, and Butcher.  Hopefully Tuch comes back healthy and makes a positive difference.  

You may not like it, but the core of this team going forward is going to be Jbot's prospects and young acquisitions.  Thompson, Cozens, Samuelsson, Joki, Mitts, Johnson, Dahlin, and Bryson all look like core pieces and possibly Laaksonen, UPL and Portillo as well.  I don't disagree that Jbot's roster building wasn't great, but his legacy on this team will be here for years to come.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[thewookie1]

Regier:

Girgs

 

Murray: 

Okposo

Olofsson

Asplund

 

Botterill:

Thompson

Mitts

Dahlin

Miller

Skinner

Jokiharju

Bryson

UPL

Cozens

Murray 

 

Adams:

Cagguila

Butcher

Hinostroza

Hayden

Anderson

Dell

Tokarski

Subban

Tuch

Hagg

*Pysyk*

Bjork

Eakin

 

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Dylan Cozens? Bryson? UPL? Aren't they Jbot's players on the roster as well? Aren't key prospects R2, Portillo, Samuelsson, Johnson, and Laaksonen Jbot's as well?

They weren't on the NHL roster Adams inherited, which is where this conversation started.

I agree Botterill did a pretty good job drafting. His track record at developing is questionable (Mitts, Tage) and his ability to acquire existing NHL talent was pitiful.

So far, Adams ability acquire NHL talent has been pitiful as well.

[GASabresIUFAN]

In 81 games as GM KA's Sabres are 23-48-10 for 56 pts.  

 

[thewookie1]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

In 81 games as GM KA's Sabres are 23-48-10 for 56 pts.  

 

Not a great start but the first 2/3rds of last year were more on Krueger than Adams

[Thorny]

15 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Regier:

Girgs

 

Murray: 

Okposo

Olofsson

Asplund

 

Botterill:

Thompson

Mitts

Dahlin

Miller

Skinner

Jokiharju

Bryson

UPL

Cozens

Murray 

 

Adams:

Cagguila

Butcher

Hinostroza

Hayden

Anderson

Dell

Tokarski

Subban

Tuch

Hagg

*Pysyk*

Bjork

Eakin

 

It's quite clear that by far the best group here is Botterill's, for whatever that's worth

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Not a great start but the first 2/3rds of last year were more on Krueger than Adams

Actually RK only coached 50% of the last season.  KA brought in Hall, Eakin, Staal and Rieder to help enhance the returning roster.  Those decisions are on KA.  He failed to improve the goaltending or the defense and that is also on KA.  RK is the worst NHL coach I have ever seen and that includes Ron Rolston, but KA is the GM and the enhanced roster he created was awful.  Sorry he doesn't get a pass just because RK was the coach.  Also the Sabres weren't that much worse in the first 25 games last season at 6-15-4 despite being on a 0-7-2 losing streak at that time.  The Sabres are 1-8-1 in their last 10 and are currently on a 5 game losing streak. 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It's quite clear that by far the best group here is Botterill's, for whatever that's worth

Murray's is actually probably second lol

This is what I mean, what Adams has done so far can be best summed up by A) What @Archie Leesaid: Things that are not terrible, and B) commit a couple of strong looking drafts to paper. 

I really do think A factors in as much as B, too, to the positive perception. You hear a lot of pretty glowing reviews for a GM who's team has literally just accumulated losses since he took over. People want the "just let everything develop" route. No "quick fix" effort. 

He hasn't really done very much. He's the guy who drafted Jack Quinn and JJ Peterka and didn't handcuff the organization long term with anything. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Murray's is actually probably second lol

This is what I mean, what Adams has done so far can be best summed up by A) What @Archie Leesaid: Thing that are not terrible, and B) commit a couple of strong looking drafts to paper. 

I really do think A factors in as much as B, too. People want the "just let everything develop" route. No "quick fix" effort. 

He hasn't really done very much. 

KA has done alot and nearly all of it terrible at the NHL level.  Like Jbot, his drafting is his saving grace so far, but not one of his draftees has yet to suit up for the Sabres.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

One thing Adams has done significantly better than Botterill is that he has tended to invest $750,000 and no assets into one-year contracts for his JAGs like Hinostroza and Pysyk, rather than $10 million and picks into long-term deals for JAGs like Sheary and Miller.

Seriously @GASabresIUFAN, how can you get upset by Butcher and ignore that?

[Brawndo]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

I mean sure, but without hearing that Reinhart *wasn't* open to a deal two offseasons ago, there's no reason to assume he couldn't have locked up Reinhart at that time. If you show him the money, he stays, if he's still two years out from UFA. As you mentioned, Adams was travelling with the team and had a good idea of the makeup right when he took over - he should have signed Sam then. If he knew the team was going to be bad and knew he had no chance of signing Sam the following offseason, by bridging him one more year he made the choice/put the team in the situation where they had to lose Sam. 

"Who knows, maybe Sam wanted to sign one year deals until he got out" isn't much of a defense. It's Adams job to lock up his key players. Of course Botterill's decisions factor in massively as well, but Adams could have also signed Reinhart. 

- - - 

As for the last bit - it's discouraging to learn that he has an additional two years to achieve progress. Like you, I'd hope for that progress next season. If he's allowed another write-off year, I do think the plan is in big trouble. 

We do have to take into consideration the strong possibility that Reinhart and Ullmark both saw the writing on the wall, particularly once Jack asked for a trade and asked for one year deals for themselves 

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Building a team and an organization properly takes time.

Firing the builder after 80 games seems premature under any circumstances. 

Firing one who came in saddled with Jason Botterill’s roster and Ralph Krueger’s coaching, who was forced to gut his hockey department and trade his franchise centrepiece during a pandemic seems utterly ridiculous. Especially when his only obvious egregious mis-step so far is his handling of the Ullmark situation and replacement.

Not sure if the industry opinion of the Sabres could get any worse, but that might do it.

There will be quite a bit of disagreement with this, but I’m counting this as Year One of the Adams Administration, as the bulk of the tear down happen this summer into the fall 

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

Ya, I suppose the benefit of having owners like the Pegulas is that whenever Adams doesn't do something right, we can just say it's their fault

The Pegulas are the impetus behind all the negative decisions, but all of the positive developments have "Adams" written all over them, but NOT the Pegulas. 

I keep forgetting. 

6 hours ago, Thorny said:

There was quite a lot of talk at the time that Hall's signing represented the reason we didn't/couldn't go LT with Sam. 

There is indication that the Pegulas have taken a step back and are allowing Adams and His Team to make decisions. So for better or worse this is on Adams moving forward. 
 

I remember hearing this as well