Fire Kevyn Adams

[SwampD]

Where was this thread in October?… September?

Are people really surprised by this team, now? This is the team and season we knew we had back then.

We were in 31st place and we got rid of everyone that mattered.

It's a tank. Ride it like a wave, baby.

At least we get to cheer some goals.

[Marvin]

16 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I agree with you. I truly do.  If I never saw a fight in a hockey game again, and barely saw any hitting BUT I saw a lot of scoring chances and goals with end to end rushes, I'd be 100% happy with this sport.  But with that said, different people like different things.  Just as much as I like skating and scoring and don't even care about seeing big hits.....there are other people that I understand could care less about a smooth skating forward compared to seeing a 6'3" tall 230lb guy who will drop hits all over the ice and drop the gloves a couple times a month.  A lot of fans started liking hockey when it was a lot 'tougher' and that is probably a large part of why they liked it to begin with.

To be honest, I don't want my D-men to be the hitters on my team. I want my forward to be the hitters.  To me the key to D-zone play is positioning.  Most times when a D-man makes a hit, he is risking taking himself out of the play, leading to chaos in your own end.  I want the D-men to be on their skates, reading the play, ready to react the instant they can get to a loose puck or break up a pass and get the puck out of my own end.  The one  exception is I want one true huge Ogre of a D-man who can move anyone out from the front of the net when shorthanded. He can be my short handed specialist, but can be on my 3rd pair otherwise.

My forwards? THOSE are the guys I want to hit, to create chaos in the Offensive zone.  Look at the past 2-3 seasons the Okposo and Girgensons (when he is playing) line. They play physical and hit along the board in the O-zone, and often times THAT is the thing that keeps the puck in the zone. Give me 1 or 2 physical hitting wingers on my forward line with a sniper (or at least someone with good hands) to go near the net, and I think you have a winning line.

Clarification: I need at least two "crease clearing" defencemen for penalty kills.  It's the nature of the game.  But being physically strong does not imply that they run people through the boards.  Bill Hajt (another player who was inexplicable disliked by much of the fan base) was one of the best players at this -- he didn't hit much, but he was positionally amazing and he could muscle people out from in front of the net.

[Brawndo]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:26 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

This is all when and good, but when does all this “trying” become succeeding.  KA made clear he wouldn’t commit any serious assets to making any deals this off-season.  You may consider that trying but I don’t.  He also has shown himself to be a poor pro talent evaluator so far and if he doesn’t start succeeding soon, he needs to gone as the GM.  For example, he spent 2.8 mill of his precious cap space this season on Butcher, money that should have been spent on goaltending.  

Adams First Season as GM was all about a last ditch effort to try team and salvage a team who’s owner foolishly thought Taylor Hall would make them a legitimate Stanley Cup Contender.

Adams understood this wouldn’t be successful and made sure that assets brought in Hall and Staal were not long term.

He quickly realized that the Hockey Operations Department needed to be rebuilt and more importantly realized the importance of having a strong analytics department.  

The Serious Assets that Adams picked this offseason are Karmanos, Ventura and Galamini all of which are a huge benefit moving forward to this team. This is the only small amount of Credit I would give to the Pegulas, is agreeing for this to be built. 

He signed a bunch of JAGs to one year league minimum deals, which are easily tradable or easy to send to the AHL. 
Butcher was always about re acquiring a 2022 5th and possibly flipping Him at the deadline for another pick. 
Bjork has been disappointing, but has a manageable contract. 
Hagg was a salary cap dump, that might fetch a pick at the TDL
Alex Tuch is the only player with a higher AAV and years left and pretty much the entire league regards Him as a pretty damn good player. 
 

This is where the Analytics Department comes in handy to target under the radar UFAs that will specifically work well with the team and Granato’s Playing Style 

 

 

This season, as Mike Harrington put it is a bridge year, clear out the players who expressed a desire to be moved, develop the likes of Tage, Mitts, Cozens and Dahlin in the NHL, and allow the prospects to develop properly in Their Respective Leagues 
 

 

On 12/6/2021 at 1:26 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

This is probably true, which is why I’m advocating kicking Adams upstairs and give Karmanos the real power.

There is a reason Karmanos has the Title Associate and not Assistant GM. It’s the same reason Why Sam Ventura, who could have picked any Front Office in the League, chose Buffalo 

On 12/6/2021 at 8:41 AM, inkman said:

Here here.  I think GMKA’s original plan was to have Ullmark return.  When Boston offered Linus that contract, Adams punted.  Considering we have UPL, Levi and Portillo waiting in the wings, I don’t blame him for that.  His next plan was for UPL to take over the goaltending reigns.  After a suboptimal preseason, that plan was quickly altered.  Anderson became the main guy with Toker backing him up until UPL was ready.  Not ideal but not disastrous.  Then Anderson gets hurt, Toker goes down and we are in goalie hell.  Hard to kill GMKA when plans A,B,C and D didn’t work out. 

This is correct 

On 12/6/2021 at 9:01 AM, nfreeman said:

If KA were willing to give Ullmark a 3-year deal @ $5MM per year, he could've, and should've, found another goalie for that kind of contract instead of settling for the losers the Sabres currently have at the position, which he should've known would've chained an anchor to a team struggling to keep their heads above water.

They've now lost 14 out of 17 and look utterly lost and like they expect to lose.  We've seen this movie before.

There is an unacceptably high risk that another bottom-3 finish will suffuse this group of kids with an ineradicable stink of losing in the same way the prior tank did to the prior group.

 

On 12/6/2021 at 10:15 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

You can't blame KA for bringing in a 40 year old goalie?  What were the odds of a 40 year old goalie lasting an entire season without injury? Nearly zero.  I researched this issue when we signed him and in modern hockey only 2 or 3 goalies over 40 ever played over 40 games in a season.  A competent GM should have known this.  This means he needed to have a good backup for his 40 year old goalie. Instead he relied on a career AAAA goalie in Tokarski and a 30 something goalie with horribly declining stats for the prior 3 years.  

Essentially he went from plan A to plan Tank and created the situation you see before you today.  He is completely responsible for the mess.  

The sad part of this mess is that it was completely avoidable. He is wasting 2.8 on Butcher and now another 2.35 in Subban, Anderson and Dell.  That's 5 mill he could have and should have easily invested in a real starting goaltender with Tokarski already here.  

@inkman you say he punted because he had UPL, Portillo and Levi in the wings.  He didn't. Levi had yet to be acquired and no reasonable talent evaluator after UPL was 36th in the AHL last season in save % would think he was going to be ready to start in the NHL anytime soon.  At best he needed to have bridge goaltending for 2-3 years until a prospect was ready, but it was also just as possible that UPL is not an NHL goalie and that the college kid (Portillo) wasn't going to be ready for 4 or more years when he let Ullmark walk.  Honestly his decision was penny wise and pound foolish.

 

On 12/6/2021 at 10:59 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

KA has never stuck to a plan since he arrived.  Last season he loaded up on vets to try to get over the hump and then switched to rebuild when the first plan failed. 

This off-season was no different.  He started with plan A which was re-signed UIllmark to properly support the youth movement.  When that failed, instead of sticking to that plan by finding an adequate replacement he switched again to Tank 2.0.  

But a funny thing happened on the way to the tank.  The kids started scoring and playing hard.  As @dudacek pointed out, when this team gets just decent (not even good) goaltending they win and when they don't they lose.  We are scoring at a playoff caliber level despite having so many JAGs at the forward and defense.  If KA was willing to change plans so quickly in the off-season, it's reasonable to hope that he'd be willing to revert back to plan A when the team shows that it's worthy of that support.  This team has and KA should do his job and give them the support they have earned.    

TO those that say that this season was never about winning, you are both right and wrong.  Yes, it was about the growth and development of the young core, but it is also about changing the culture from one where losing is acceptable to one where it isn't.  By going for Tank 2.0, KA is still signaling that losing is just fine.  Not exactly the way to turn this ship in a better direction.

Here’s the great thing about being an UFA. Just because a team makes an offer, doesn’t mean the player has to accept it. Hell if a player doesn’t think the organization is a fit at all there isn’t even a chance to make an offer. 
Adams heard thanks but no thanks from a majority of the Upper Echelon of UFA Goalies Agents this year.
Look at where the Top UFAs Goalies signed this Summer, were any of them coming to Buffalo? 
Grubauer put the screws to the Avs by not giving them a decision on their offer and allowing the UFA Market to dry up before He signed with Seattle. 
Of the traded goalies Hill brought back a second and a goalie prospect, who are the Sabres including in that deal UPL, Portillo or Levi? 
BTW Levi was acquired on July 24th, four days before UFA opened on the 28th. 
Kuemper was traded for a First, Conditional Third and Connor Timmins. At this point the Sabres are not in position to make that trade. 
Given Francis and Adams good relationship and the fact that Vanecek was traded for only a second makes me wonder Seattle and Washington have side deal, or more likely Francis approached Vanecek and said Buffalo is interested and He told Francis I’m not committing beyond My Two Remaining Years of Team Control.  
A rebuilding team desperate for as many assets as possible cannot give up a Second Round Pick for two years of a player. 
 

So option A of Ullmark is gone.

Option B of better UFAs or Trades is gone.

Option C of signing Anderson, Dell coupled with UPL and Tokarski was the only one left.  Maybe the idea was to proceed with Anderson and who ever won the backup job between Dell and Tokarski and hope that UPL showed some improvement over 20-30 games in Rochester then He could be moved up.

Anderson gets run over by Hagg, UPL is more cold than hot and Tokarski is out with Covid for 10 days

Option D might be waiting for Dallas to make a decision on Khudobin. That depends on Bishop’s Recovery and if Khudobin is willing to come to Buffalo. 

In terms of Adams not sticking to a plan, The Plan as outlined above was one last ditch effort with Eichel and Crew then a rebuild when it inevitably failed.
 

Adams was faced with a reality, not of His Own making, of having to Trade the Team’s Franchise Player in Eichel, A Top Player in Reinhart as well as a Swallow Prospect Pipeline realized that a rebuild was the best option for the franchise. 
This time He appears to be attempting to properly build a team exactly what they should have done the first time around. 
 

People can vehemently disagree with this plan, the last iteration failed miserably, but the management team executing this plan is completely different and appears to have a better grasp of what’s necessary to make it succeed.

Only time will tell. 
 

I did find it interesting that Friedman mentioned on After the Whistle that the Sabres plan appears to be the best draft choice and Granato said that despite Mitts Injury The team would move forward with the veterans that are already in Buffalo and leave the prospects in Rochester, not deviating from the plan. 
 

in terms of players being exposed to a losing culture this is where leader ship comes in and honesty from management to the players about what their expectations are for the season. Look at Krebs, who played on the worse team in the WHL The Kootenay/Winnipeg Ice and the pride He took helping to go from a terrible team to one of the WHL’s Premier Franchises, He spoke of doing the same with Buffalo. 
 

My Expectations are the team still struggles for the first half the 2022-23 Season as Quinn and Power have been slow to adapt when they move up a level and that some on Twitter will wonder if they are busts,  but once they do the team will start to dramatically improve. 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Brawndo

[GASabresIUFAN]

@brawndo. What a bunch of excuses for incompetence.  

Of course a rebuilding team can pay a 2nd for a 2 year goalie.  That acquired goalie is also an asset and can be traded later.  Wash paid a 2nd for 25 year old goalie in Vanacek.  Det paid a 3rd for Nedjelkovic. Good deals were available and KA ignored them time and again to stick with Hutton and later his “plan”. Those two goalies could have stabilized the position and given us the goalie of the future and not just a 2 year bridge.  Other trades were likely available.  

I’m sorry but paying 2.8 mill for flawed player to acquire a 5th round pick is just plain stupid, especially for a team on a budget and with a boat full of D prospects and greater needs like goaltending or D first defensemen.  He was never going to get another pick for Butcher because he can’t play defense at all.  He makes Miller look competent.  Goaltending was this teams top priority the past two off-seasons and our incompetent GM couldn’t see past our injury riddled but good goalie in Ullmark.  At best KA had to get a good backup for Ullmark’s inevitable injury.  He also should have realized that Ullmark was going to explore other options especially when the Sabres were about to go through another rebuild.  Every other veteran wanted off the sinking ship why would Ullmark want to stay if he had a choice? KA should have had a plan B and didn’t and that is the bottomline.  He alone is responsible for the goaltending issues for the last two years.  He honestly should be fired for that failure alone.  
 

No one thinks that Karmanos or the other hires weren’t good.  The truth is they should be in charge, not KA.  He literally needs to be removed from the NHL roster decision making for the good of the franchise. 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Give @Thorny credit for keeping us focused on what makes pro sports pro sports: ultimately, only the results matter.

The goaltending situation is a serious mess that is counterproductive to the plan (well-articulated above by @Brawndo). Best of intentions or not, that falls on Adams.

Will Butcher is a fail as top 5 defenceman, but I don’t understand why anyone would put much weight on that. He’s hardly the league’s worst contract, probably not it’s worst 7th defencemen (we’ve certainly had worse), and neither his presence, nor his salary is interfering with his role or anything else. He was brought in as a placeholder. And we got a pick for rolling the dice. Shrug.

Robert Hagg, Mark Pysyk Drake Caggiula, Vinnie Hinostroza and Craig Anderson have been worth the investments. Maybe less so Anders Bjork and John Hayden. Definitely not Aaron Dell.

None of those guys really mean much in the greater scheme of things either.

Hiring Don Granato and telling him to focus on the development of his young NHLers rather than wins and losses, that was an important decision.

Tage Thompson and Rasmus Asplund have taken huge steps. Dylan Cozens is growing up before our eyes. Jacob Bryson has mostly played well. Mitts and VO and Jokiharju have been hampered by injuries, but they all appear to have grown as well. I know it’s not a popular opinion here at the moment, but Rasmus Dahlin has too.

Adams putting his leadership in the hands of Okposo and Girgensons was a big deal. They are doing the jersey proud with their effort and their attitudes. Okposo and Jeff Skinner are producing and contributing like I never expected to see again.

The return on Risto, Sam and Jack was a big deal.

It will be some time before we can judge the harvest, but the early returns on Levi and Krebs are excellent. We’re all excited to see what we get from Alex Tuch. And 6 1st rounders and 6 2nd rounders over a 3-year period has the ability to make or break the franchise over the next decade.

And the transformation of the hockey department was big deal. It will determine whether the plan succeeds or fails. The early returns on prime picks like Quinn, Peterka and Power are outstanding. The early returns on later picks, and on the Amerks are intriguing.

Everything above is on Adams.

The results are all that matters.

I am not going to confuse what we see today - on the ice, or on the farm - as the results.

Edited December 9, 2021 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@brawndo. What a bunch of excuses for incompetence.  

I’m sorry but paying 2.8 mill for flawed player to acquire a 5th round pick is just plain stupid, especially for a team on a budget and with a boat full of D prospects and greater needs like goaltending or D first defensemen.  
 

No one thinks that Karmanos or the other hires weren’t good.  The truth is they should be in charge, not KA.  He literally needs to be removed from the NHL roster decision making for the good of the franchise. 

1st, you have repeated this add nauseum and I don't get it. Someone should challenge it more often because I've seen nothing from the Sabres showing they are operating on an internal cap from ownership. Butcher was added because it gets you to the cap floor and you get a pick for a guy you might be able to flip. It's smart for the gm and considering we have something like 14 million in cap still, had 0, zilch, nada impact on us acquiring a goalie. I think we trade but either didn't find a price that worked or got screwed because of 10 years of ineptitude. 

2nd, Karmanos and Ventura are most assuredly not yes men under Adams and looking at Karmanos I think he's the main man with Adams as front man and ownership liaison. I don't think Adams is making unilateral roster decisions. There is clearly a group that makes decision so it isn't a Adams just deciding things. 

Everything does ultimately fall to Adams but calling for his firing after he's had 1 offseason seems odd considering what he's done. 

 

Ponder this if Adams is an incompetent idiot who needs to be fired because he doesn't know what he's doing...

He acquired Devon Levi... that came from someone else's brain impo but Adams is smart enough to trust staff and his associate gm. That's what you want to see and Levi currently looks like a stud. For a gm who didn't fix the gt, he certainly is trying to fix the goaltending. 

[nucci]

you have to give a GM minimum 3 years unless he's really incompetent. As much as this sucks not sure how firing Adams helps.

[nfreeman]

13 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Adams First Season as GM was all about a last ditch effort to try team and salvage a team who’s owner foolishly thought Taylor Hall would make them a legitimate Stanley Cup Contender.

Adams understood this wouldn’t be successful and made sure that assets brought in Hall and Staal were not long term.

He quickly realized that the Hockey Operations Department needed to be rebuilt and more importantly realized the importance of having a strong analytics department.  

The Serious Assets that Adams picked this offseason are Karmanos, Ventura and Galamini all of which are a huge benefit moving forward to this team. This is the only small amount of Credit I would give to the Pegulas, is agreeing for this to be built. 

-snip-

So option A of Ullmark is gone.

Option B of better UFAs or Trades is gone.

Option C of signing Anderson, Dell coupled with UPL and Tokarski was the only one left.  Maybe the idea was to proceed with Anderson and who ever won the backup job between Dell and Tokarski and hope that UPL showed some improvement over 20-30 games in Rochester then He could be moved up.

Anderson gets run over by Hagg, UPL is more cold than hot and Tokarski is out with Covid for 10 days

Option D might be waiting for Dallas to make a decision on Khudobin. That depends on Bishop’s Recovery and if Khudobin is willing to come to Buffalo. 
 

-snip-

Adams was faced with a reality, not of His Own making, of having to Trade the Team’s Franchise Player in Eichel, A Top Player in Reinhart as well as a Swallow Prospect Pipeline realized that a rebuild was the best option for the franchise. 
This time He appears to be attempting to properly build a team exactly what they should have done the first time around.

-snip-

in terms of players being exposed to a losing culture this is where leader ship comes in and honesty from management to the players about what their expectations are for the season. Look at Krebs, who played on the worse team in the WHL The Kootenay/Winnipeg Ice and the pride He took helping to go from a terrible team to one of the WHL’s Premier Franchises, He spoke of doing the same with Buffalo.

This is an excellent post.  I agree with almost all of it, with the huge exception of giving KA a pass on the goalie debacle.  I don't doubt the accuracy of the examples you gave, but IMHO the unavoidable facts are that KA has had 2 offseasons -- not one -- to improve the goaltending, that a ton of goalies play musical chairs every summer, and that KA didn't come up with anyone -- and that there is a high risk that what KA has provided in net is going to materially harm the development of the kids on whom the whole rebuilding plan is based.  I simply cannot believe that he couldn't have done better than what we've got now.

Separately, I agree with those upthread who do not understand why @GASabresIUFAN keeps harping on the Butcher signing.  It seems completely inconsequential to me.

And as always I agree with @Thorny that the results are all that matter.  I also agree with much of @dudacek's post, but not with his assertion that the results for this year don't count.  Everything counts, especially yet another terrible season that is over by the quarter-pole, and especially when that outcome was 100% foreseeable and is the direct result of terrible execution by KA at staffing the most important position on the team.

[JohnC]

13 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Adams First Season as GM was all about a last ditch effort to try team and salvage a team who’s owner foolishly thought Taylor Hall would make them a legitimate Stanley Cup Contender.

Adams understood this wouldn’t be successful and made sure that assets brought in Hall and Staal were not long term.

He quickly realized that the Hockey Operations Department needed to be rebuilt and more importantly realized the importance of having a strong analytics department.  

The Serious Assets that Adams picked this offseason are Karmanos, Ventura and Galamini all of which are a huge benefit moving forward to this team. This is the only small amount of Credit I would give to the Pegulas, is agreeing for this to be built. 

He signed a bunch of JAGs to one year league minimum deals, which are easily tradable or easy to send to the AHL. 
Butcher was always about re acquiring a 2022 5th and possibly flipping Him at the deadline for another pick. 
Bjork has been disappointing, but has a manageable contract. 
Hagg was a salary cap dump, that might fetch a pick at the TDL
Alex Tuch is the only player with a higher AAV and years left and pretty much the entire league regards Him as a pretty damn good player. 
 

This is where the Analytics Department comes in handy to target under the radar UFAs that will specifically work well with the team and Granato’s Playing Style 

 

 

This season, as Mike Harrington put it is a bridge year, clear out the players who expressed a desire to be moved, develop the likes of Tage, Mitts, Cozens and Dahlin in the NHL, and allow the prospects to develop properly in Their Respective Leagues 
 

 

There is a reason Karmanos has the Title Associate and not Assistant GM. It’s the same reason Why Sam Ventura, who could have picked any Front Office in the League, chose Buffalo 

This is correct 

 

 

Here’s the great thing about being an UFA. Just because a team makes an offer, doesn’t mean the player has to accept it. Hell if a player doesn’t think the organization is a fit at all there isn’t even a chance to make an offer. 
Adams heard thanks but no thanks from a majority of the Upper Echelon of UFA Goalies Agents this year.
Look at where the Top UFAs Goalies signed this Summer, were any of them coming to Buffalo? 
Grubauer put the screws to the Avs by not giving them a decision on their offer and allowing the UFA Market to dry up before He signed with Seattle. 
Of the traded goalies Hill brought back a second and a goalie prospect, who are the Sabres including in that deal UPL, Portillo or Levi? 
BTW Levi was acquired on July 24th, four days before UFA opened on the 28th. 
Kuemper was traded for a First, Conditional Third and Connor Timmins. At this point the Sabres are not in position to make that trade. 
Given Francis and Adams good relationship and the fact that Vanecek was traded for only a second makes me wonder Seattle and Washington have side deal, or more likely Francis approached Vanecek and said Buffalo is interested and He told Francis I’m not committing beyond My Two Remaining Years of Team Control.  
A rebuilding team desperate for as many assets as possible cannot give up a Second Round Pick for two years of a player. 
 

So option A of Ullmark is gone.

Option B of better UFAs or Trades is gone.

Option C of signing Anderson, Dell coupled with UPL and Tokarski was the only one left.  Maybe the idea was to proceed with Anderson and who ever won the backup job between Dell and Tokarski and hope that UPL showed some improvement over 20-30 games in Rochester then He could be moved up.

Anderson gets run over by Hagg, UPL is more cold than hot and Tokarski is out with Covid for 10 days

Option D might be waiting for Dallas to make a decision on Khudobin. That depends on Bishop’s Recovery and if Khudobin is willing to come to Buffalo. 

In terms of Adams not sticking to a plan, The Plan as outlined above was one last ditch effort with Eichel and Crew then a rebuild when it inevitably failed.
 

Adams was faced with a reality, not of His Own making, of having to Trade the Team’s Franchise Player in Eichel, A Top Player in Reinhart as well as a Swallow Prospect Pipeline realized that a rebuild was the best option for the franchise. 
This time He appears to be attempting to properly build a team exactly what they should have done the first time around. 
 

People can vehemently disagree with this plan, the last iteration failed miserably, but the management team executing this plan is completely different and appears to have a better grasp of what’s necessary to make it succeed.

Only time will tell. 
 

I did find it interesting that Friedman mentioned on After the Whistle that the Sabres plan appears to be the best draft choice and Granato said that despite Mitts Injury The team would move forward with the veterans that are already in Buffalo and leave the prospects in Rochester, not deviating from the plan. 
 

in terms of players being exposed to a losing culture this is where leader ship comes in and honesty from management to the players about what their expectations are for the season. Look at Krebs, who played on the worse team in the WHL The Kootenay/Winnipeg Ice and the pride He took helping to go from a terrible team to one of the WHL’s Premier Franchises, He spoke of doing the same with Buffalo. 
 

My Expectations are the team still struggles for the first half the 2022-23 Season as Quinn and Power have been slow to adapt when they move up a level and that some on Twitter will wonder if they are busts,  but once they do the team will start to dramatically improve. 

 

Whether one agrees with how the GM is doing his job what is clearly evident (as you demonstrate in your incisive responses) is that it is clearly understood that rebuild plan is being implemented. That in itself is a good sign especially when compared to this franchise's gyrations that mostly involved patchwork signings and rushing prospects when they were not ready. Mitts and Tage would be examples of that misguided approach. KA has spoken on more than a few occasions on how he is going to handle the prospects. The central issue when deciding to bring up a prospect is whether it is in the player's best long-term development.  He stated he would rather error on waiting on preparing a player for the NHL if he believed that the player will be better prepared for the elevation. 

As you wisely pointed out the one thing that is often forgotten in assessing KA as a GM is his work in staffing the hockey operations. He has added quality people who are well respected throughout the hockey world. KA's style of management leans toward collaboration. He is secure enough to surround himself with talented staff. And his selection of Granato as the coach indicates that everyone is aligned  in what needs to be done for the short and long-term. 

It's a frustrating process for the fans to be subjected to. But if handled adroitly it will be the best strategy to turn things around the fastest. 

[Thorny]

13 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Adams First Season as GM was all about a last ditch effort to try team and salvage a team who’s owner foolishly thought Taylor Hall would make them a legitimate Stanley Cup Contender.

Adams understood this wouldn’t be successful and made sure that assets brought in Hall and Staal were not long term.

He quickly realized that the Hockey Operations Department needed to be rebuilt and more importantly realized the importance of having a strong analytics department.  

The Serious Assets that Adams picked this offseason are Karmanos, Ventura and Galamini all of which are a huge benefit moving forward to this team. This is the only small amount of Credit I would give to the Pegulas, is agreeing for this to be built. 

He signed a bunch of JAGs to one year league minimum deals, which are easily tradable or easy to send to the AHL. 
Butcher was always about re acquiring a 2022 5th and possibly flipping Him at the deadline for another pick. 
Bjork has been disappointing, but has a manageable contract. 
Hagg was a salary cap dump, that might fetch a pick at the TDL
Alex Tuch is the only player with a higher AAV and years left and pretty much the entire league regards Him as a pretty damn good player. 
 

This is where the Analytics Department comes in handy to target under the radar UFAs that will specifically work well with the team and Granato’s Playing Style 

 

 

This season, as Mike Harrington put it is a bridge year, clear out the players who expressed a desire to be moved, develop the likes of Tage, Mitts, Cozens and Dahlin in the NHL, and allow the prospects to develop properly in Their Respective Leagues 
 

 

There is a reason Karmanos has the Title Associate and not Assistant GM. It’s the same reason Why Sam Ventura, who could have picked any Front Office in the League, chose Buffalo 

This is correct 

 

 

Here’s the great thing about being an UFA. Just because a team makes an offer, doesn’t mean the player has to accept it. Hell if a player doesn’t think the organization is a fit at all there isn’t even a chance to make an offer. 
Adams heard thanks but no thanks from a majority of the Upper Echelon of UFA Goalies Agents this year.
Look at where the Top UFAs Goalies signed this Summer, were any of them coming to Buffalo? 
Grubauer put the screws to the Avs by not giving them a decision on their offer and allowing the UFA Market to dry up before He signed with Seattle. 
Of the traded goalies Hill brought back a second and a goalie prospect, who are the Sabres including in that deal UPL, Portillo or Levi? 
BTW Levi was acquired on July 24th, four days before UFA opened on the 28th. 
Kuemper was traded for a First, Conditional Third and Connor Timmins. At this point the Sabres are not in position to make that trade. 
Given Francis and Adams good relationship and the fact that Vanecek was traded for only a second makes me wonder Seattle and Washington have side deal, or more likely Francis approached Vanecek and said Buffalo is interested and He told Francis I’m not committing beyond My Two Remaining Years of Team Control.  
A rebuilding team desperate for as many assets as possible cannot give up a Second Round Pick for two years of a player. 
 

So option A of Ullmark is gone.

Option B of better UFAs or Trades is gone.

Option C of signing Anderson, Dell coupled with UPL and Tokarski was the only one left.  Maybe the idea was to proceed with Anderson and who ever won the backup job between Dell and Tokarski and hope that UPL showed some improvement over 20-30 games in Rochester then He could be moved up.

Anderson gets run over by Hagg, UPL is more cold than hot and Tokarski is out with Covid for 10 days

Option D might be waiting for Dallas to make a decision on Khudobin. That depends on Bishop’s Recovery and if Khudobin is willing to come to Buffalo. 

In terms of Adams not sticking to a plan, The Plan as outlined above was one last ditch effort with Eichel and Crew then a rebuild when it inevitably failed.
 

Adams was faced with a reality, not of His Own making, of having to Trade the Team’s Franchise Player in Eichel, A Top Player in Reinhart as well as a Swallow Prospect Pipeline realized that a rebuild was the best option for the franchise. 
This time He appears to be attempting to properly build a team exactly what they should have done the first time around. 
 

People can vehemently disagree with this plan, the last iteration failed miserably, but the management team executing this plan is completely different and appears to have a better grasp of what’s necessary to make it succeed.

Only time will tell. 
 

I did find it interesting that Friedman mentioned on After the Whistle that the Sabres plan appears to be the best draft choice and Granato said that despite Mitts Injury The team would move forward with the veterans that are already in Buffalo and leave the prospects in Rochester, not deviating from the plan. 
 

in terms of players being exposed to a losing culture this is where leader ship comes in and honesty from management to the players about what their expectations are for the season. Look at Krebs, who played on the worse team in the WHL The Kootenay/Winnipeg Ice and the pride He took helping to go from a terrible team to one of the WHL’s Premier Franchises, He spoke of doing the same with Buffalo. 
 

My Expectations are the team still struggles for the first half the 2022-23 Season as Quinn and Power have been slow to adapt when they move up a level and that some on Twitter will wonder if they are busts,  but once they do the team will start to dramatically improve. 

 

I agree with much of this, but you lost me at "Mike Harrington". 

- - - 

Agree with what I feel is your key point: that within the context of the plan, Adams seems to be managing reasonably well. Whether the plan itself is good, is what's up for debate, and a bit more of an interesting discussion, until a larger sample size of results presents itself.

I'd add, re: your point about "losing culture", that for me it's less about the players psyches being damaged by that, and more about training the players to get into a mode where "not winning" is ok. Which is indeed the hypothetical being presented, right? That they are being told, "don't worry, expectations are low this year"? That's a slippery slope when it comes to instilling a mindset, and culture. And even if the players are ok with results not mattering now, how long does that last for? 

To me, as I've mentioned before, one "down" year like this within the context of the plan seems to make sense*. A second year like this next year...does anyone think that would be ok? Work out ok? Do people expect more for next year or is it going to be "this season was never about winning anyways" after a month, again? 

*To an extent - we know Adams wanted better for in net. Which brings me to my only other disagreement - the breakdown above seeking to, in step by step fashion, alleviate the blame from Adams for the goaltending situation is incorrect, full stop. It can be argued that it was better to not have good goaltending (not that I would) because the aim is a high pick, but if the goal was to have better GT, just because Adams "tried" doesn't make the results of the position acceptable. His job is to fill positions competently, not "try" to do so.

The bar, to be better than what we have, is so, so low. Just because a few specific examples are given of specific goalies who were acquired for a price arguably too high for us, doesn't come close to proving there weren't plenty of options available to upgrade the goaltending. Without knowing all of the options, the position needs to be judged on results - it's the most fair. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Ponder this if Adams is an incompetent idiot who needs to be fired because he doesn't know what he's doing...

He acquired Devon Levi... that came from someone else's brain impo but Adams is smart enough to trust staff and his associate gm. That's what you want to see and Levi currently looks like a stud. For a gm who didn't fix the gt, he certainly is trying to fix the goaltending. 

It's way too early to tell but the Levi acquisition in the Reinhart deal could turn out to be the most impactful acquisition in the trade-off of players. Right now, he is one of the most prominent college hockey players. At first I was disappointed in the return for Reinhart. I'm now much more upbeat about it. 

[Thorny]

It's been TWO seasons. It's a large enough timeframe where a reasonable addition can be expected, if management is actually aiming for such. There has been plenty of movement. It's the exact same as the Botterill 2C situation. 

Also the "Adams knew it would fail" thing is really quite weird. He knew it would fail because he brought in players like Staal who weren't good? That's why he signed them to short term deals? Because he knew his additions wouldn't get it done? 

What? lol

[Thorny]

Also we need to stop alleviating blame for Adams for Reinhart. Why do we need to gloss over the negatives just because Adams has shown some positives? He didn't HAVE to trade Reinhart. By his OWN ADMISSION Reinhart was open to signing LT when Adams came aboard. Adams COULD have signed him. He chose not to.

[inkman]

On 12/6/2021 at 5:19 PM, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

If there is one thing I wish I could cure the fan base of, it would be its obsession with defencemen being tough above all else, no matter how bad the player is at other phases of the game.

 

On 12/6/2021 at 5:26 PM, mjd1001 said:

I agree with you. I truly do.  If I never saw a fight in a hockey game again, and barely saw any hitting BUT I saw a lot of scoring chances and goals with end to end rushes, I'd be 100% happy with this sport.  But with that said, different people like different things.  Just as much as I like skating and scoring and don't even care about seeing big hits.....there are other people that I understand could care less about a smooth skating forward compared to seeing a 6'3" tall 230lb guy who will drop hits all over the ice and drop the gloves a couple times a month.  A lot of fans started liking hockey when it was a lot 'tougher' and that is probably a large part of why they liked it to begin with.

To be honest, I don't want my D-men to be the hitters on my team. I want my forward to be the hitters.  To me the key to D-zone play is positioning.  Most times when a D-man makes a hit, he is risking taking himself out of the play, leading to chaos in your own end.  I want the D-men to be on their skates, reading the play, ready to react the instant they can get to a loose puck or break up a pass and get the puck out of my own end.  The one  exception is I want one true huge Ogre of a D-man who can move anyone out from the front of the net when shorthanded. He can be my short handed specialist, but can be on my 3rd pair otherwise.

My forwards? THOSE are the guys I want to hit, to create chaos in the Offensive zone.  Look at the past 2-3 seasons the Okposo and Girgensons (when he is playing) line. They play physical and hit along the board in the O-zone, and often times THAT is the thing that keeps the puck in the zone. Give me 1 or 2 physical hitting wingers on my forward line with a sniper (or at least someone with good hands) to go near the net, and I think you have a winning line.

 

On 12/7/2021 at 10:16 AM, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Clarification: I need at least two "crease clearing" defencemen for penalty kills.  It's the nature of the game.  But being physically strong does not imply that they run people through the boards.  Bill Hajt (another player who was inexplicable disliked by much of the fan base) was one of the best players at this -- he didn't hit much, but he was positionally amazing and he could muscle people out from in front of the net.

As long as other teams employ players that hit and fight, I need my team to at a bare minimum, to be able to handle themselves if things get chippy.  We don’t have enough of those players.  Your bottom six / bottom pair should be littered with guys that hit and can drop the gloves if needed.  Even better if you get a Tkuchuk or whoever his defensive equivalent is, that can actually play top minutes AND be a problem on the ice for the other team.  I feel like GMKA knows this but he’s done little to address it to this point. 

[Thorny]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

The goaltending situation is a serious mess that is counterproductive to the plan (well-articulated above by @Brawndo). Best of intentions or not, that falls on Adams.

I am not going to confuse what we see today - on the ice, or on the farm - as the results.

Thank you for saying the bolded. 

As for the last sentence, reasonable - but when are the results the results? Adams has committed two bad teams to the ice. No, he doesn't get a pass for last year because he knew the players he chose to sign would be bad (seriously?? lol). 

Is it next year? Or is it 3 free pass years. I can't imagine any good plan requires 2 years where we intentionally aren't good, and that doesn't include Adams first year where he was working on a different plan, supposedly. 

Does the team need to win a lot more next year - does next season count as "results"? 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Thorny

[nucci]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

 

 

As long as other teams employ players that hit and fight, I need my team to at a bare minimum, to be able to handle themselves if things get chippy.  We don’t have enough of those players.  Your bottom six / bottom pair should be littered with guys that hit and can drop the gloves if needed.  Even better if you get a Tkuchuk or whoever his defensive equivalent is, that can actually play top minutes AND be a problem on the ice for the other team.  I feel like GMKA knows this but he’s done little to address it to this point. 

I miss having tough forwards who could score...Gare...Dudley

[inkman]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Also we need to stop alleviating blame for Adams for Reinhart. Why do we need to gloss over the negatives just because Adams has shown some positives? He didn't HAVE to trade Reinhart. By his OWN ADMISSION Reinhart was open to signing LT when Adams came aboard. Adams COULD have signed him. He chose not to.

Maybe there were off ice things that made him reluctant.  Everyone has top toed around it but anyone I’ve heard (Rayzor, Petey, Rivet, Gionta) have all intimated that Jack was not a good dude.  How he treated team employees, his attitude at the rink, was subpar.  Hard to say what anyone is like without knowing them.  Sam seems like a good dude but he was also BFFs with Jack so he was at least a party to the questionable behavior. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Let me see if I can explain the Butcher thing. 

1) He is a terrible player.  Good offensive skills, but a complete train wreck in his own zone and should have never been acquired.  With Hagg, Dahlin and Bryson already here and Samuelsson waiting he was a completely unnecessary acquisition at LHD.  If KA wanted additional depth at LHD to keep Samuelsson in Rochester, cheaper and better defensive players were and are available.

2) The team has an internal cap of 60-65 mill this season.  That means that ever $ under the cap needs to be allocated smartly.  Placing 5% of that cap in who amounts to your 4th LHD again makes no sense.

3) With Ullmark bolting, this money should have been allocated to a goalie instead of a worthless D.  

It's a similar decision to signing Hall last year. Yes he was a splash signing, but a position of strength last year (LW).  His huge cap hit left no money to upgrade the goaltending.  

In both season getting help in goal was a higher priority then adding another LW or another LHD this season.  Yes it got us to the cap, but as we saw with the Boychuk move, that was easily possible another way.  

It's no surprise that KA's best decisions have all come since Karmanos joined the organization, but ultimately KA still has the general manager title and his handling of the goaltending that last two seasons is mindbogglingly horrible. 

This current losing streak is not on DG or the players.  It solely rest on KA and his decision in goal.   

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Ponder this if Adams is an incompetent idiot who needs to be fired because he doesn't know what he's doing...

He acquired Devon Levi... that came from someone else's brain impo but Adams is smart enough to trust staff and his associate gm. That's what you want to see and Levi currently looks like a stud. For a gm who didn't fix the gt, he certainly is trying to fix the goaltending. 

I'd rather have Reinhart still. That's not snark, either. We could have Reinhart instead. 

What do they always say, you don't draft for need because you don't know what the roster is going to look like when the players arrive? Goalie prospects are even further away. Acquiring Levi doesn't fix the goaltending because we need a fix in goaltending long before Levi gets here, if he ever does. 

There is every chance Adams isn't even the GM when Levi is an NHLer. And that's not a comment on the aptitude of Adams - it's a recognition of the average lifespan of a GM and the dev path of goalies. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Also we need to stop alleviating blame for Adams for Reinhart. Why do we need to gloss over the negatives just because Adams has shown some positives? He didn't HAVE to trade Reinhart. By his OWN ADMISSION Reinhart was open to signing LT when Adams came aboard. Adams COULD have signed him. He chose not to.

He also could have re-signed Ullmark then as well and chose not to.

[Thorny]

41 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

This is an excellent post.  I agree with almost all of it, with the huge exception of giving KA a pass on the goalie debacle.  I don't doubt the accuracy of the examples you gave, but IMHO the unavoidable facts are that KA has had 2 offseasons -- not one -- to improve the goaltending, that a ton of goalies play musical chairs every summer, and that KA didn't come up with anyone -- and that there is a high risk that what KA has provided in net is going to materially harm the development of the kids on whom the whole rebuilding plan is based.  I simply cannot believe that he couldn't have done better than what we've got now.

Separately, I agree with those upthread who do not understand why @GASabresIUFAN keeps harping on the Butcher signing.  It seems completely inconsequential to me.

And as always I agree with @Thorny that the results are all that matter.  I also agree with much of @dudacek's post, but not with his assertion that the results for this year don't count.  Everything counts, especially yet another terrible season that is over by the quarter-pole, and especially when that outcome was 100% foreseeable and is the direct result of terrible execution by KA at staffing the most important position on the team.

Can't argue with anything here. *****. 

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, inkman said:

Maybe there were off ice things that made him reluctant.  Everyone has top toed around it but anyone I’ve heard (Rayzor, Petey, Rivet, Gionta) have all intimated that Jack was not a good dude.  How he treated team employees, his attitude at the rink, was subpar.  Hard to say what anyone is like without knowing them.  Sam seems like a good dude but he was also BFFs with Jack so he was at least a party to the questionable behavior. 

Right, regardless of my statement that I'd rather have Reinhart, what I think of the deal itself is immaterial to my point, here, in this case: Adams made a *choice* with Reinhart, a decision, an can be evaluated on the results of it in good faith. That's the key: in good faith. Trying to paint a picture of a man who was helpless within the situation who had no choice but to move Sam, who is therefore NOT culpable for the results is completely bogus. And it grinds my gears. 

It grinds them! 

It's the same thing with the goalies, going on. There are those that want to frame this all by pointing out all the good Adams has done, while claiming anything bad that resulted was beyond his control to make better. 

Nuh uh. 

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Let me see if I can explain the Butcher thing. 

1) He is a terrible player.  Good offensive skills, but a complete train wreck in his own zone and should have never been acquired.  With Hagg, Dahlin and Bryson already here and Samuelsson waiting he was a completely unnecessary acquisition at LHD.  If KA wanted additional depth at LHD to keep Samuelsson in Rochester, cheaper and better defensive players were and are available.

2) The team has an internal cap of 60-65 mill this season.  That means that ever $ under the cap needs to be allocated smartly.  Placing 5% of that cap in who amounts to your 4th LHD again makes no sense.

3) With Ullmark bolting, this money should have been allocated to a goalie instead of a worthless D.  

It's a similar decision to signing Hall last year. Yes he was a splash signing, but a position of strength last year (LW).  His huge cap hit left no money to upgrade the goaltending.  

In both season getting help in goal was a higher priority then adding another LW or another LHD this season.  Yes it got us to the cap, but as we saw with the Boychuk move, that was easily possible another way.  

It's no surprise that KA's best decisions have all come since Karmanos joined the organization, but ultimately KA still has the general manager title and his handling of the goaltending that last two seasons is mindbogglingly horrible. 

This current losing streak is not on DG or the players.  It solely rest on KA and his decision in goal.   

 

I don't have much of an issue with the Butcher signing, but I do take your point, here - basically, it's why I always talk about "results". All of these decisions bleed into each other just like one aspect of on-ice play bleeds into others. Maybe the Butcher signing isn't important/relevant in isolation, but none of these roster decisions exist in a vacuum. If cost at all factored into the goaltending situation, or other areas of the roster, in terms of the players we were able to bring in, the $ committed to bad players is certainly fair game for discussion, at least, I'd say. 

[Thorny]

16 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He also could have re-signed Ullmark then as well and chose not to.

Yes but at that point, as I've mentioned before, I don't think Adams was willing to sacrifice one iota of "the future" in the name of present day achievement. As always, a choice. 

Adams punted the decision on Reinhart, and, if it's true he "knew they'd be bad" (yes, I am going to have a field day with this one, too many times, sorry folks lol) he punted the decision to a time when he would have KNOWN signing Reinhart wouldn't be possible. 

By bridging Reinhart, he was literally deciding to trade Reinhart. This is the scenario being presented. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It's been TWO seasons. It's a large enough timeframe where a reasonable addition can be expected, if management is actually aiming for such. There has been plenty of movement. It's the exact same as the Botterill 2C situation. 

Also the "Adams knew it would fail" thing is really quite weird. He knew it would fail because he brought in players like Staal who weren't good? That's why he signed them to short term deals? Because he knew his additions wouldn't get it done? 

What? lol

 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Also we need to stop alleviating blame for Adams for Reinhart. Why do we need to gloss over the negatives just because Adams has shown some positives? He didn't HAVE to trade Reinhart. By his OWN ADMISSION Reinhart was open to signing LT when Adams came aboard. Adams COULD have signed him. He chose not to.

 

55 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'd rather have Reinhart still. That's not snark, either. We could have Reinhart instead. 

What do they always say, you don't draft for need because you don't know what the roster is going to look like when the players arrive? Goalie prospects are even further away. Acquiring Levi doesn't fix the goaltending because we need a fix in goaltending long before Levi gets here, if he ever does. 

There is every chance Adams isn't even the GM when Levi is an NHLer. And that's not a comment on the aptitude of Adams - it's a recognition of the average lifespan of a GM and the dev path of goalies. 

You can't ask Adams to fix gt long term and also complain he traded an expiring asset to try and do it. 

I suppose you can but it seems somewhat suspect. It's also only been 1 season because we had Ullmark last year.