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Scottysabres

Tim Murray was a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres

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Looking back on the moves Tim Murray made, the piss poor drafting in some cases, and the unabated disaster of spending draft picks and prospects capital on failed chemistry players in a rush to complete a rebuild that should have been given time to work itself out, I believe it's fairly safe to say that former GM Tim Murray was not only a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres, but he is the leading candidate for worse Sabres GM of all time.

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Well it's better than the Pokemon thread but I don't agree. 

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Botteril is just as bad if not worse. Murray acquired 4  top 6 forwards.  Botteril with his incompetence proceeded to dump 2 of them with minimal return. Currently we only have 3 top 6 forwards and we are headed back to the lottery again. 

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I was just going over all that draft pick and prospect capital Ink. My Lord what a waste. Yes, I know, hind sight is 20/20, but eegads that was a ton of capital he spent on players, that for the most part, failed.

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3 minutes ago, freester said:

Botteril is just as bad if not worse. Murray acquired 4  top 6 forwards.  Botteril with his incompetence proceeded to dump 2 of them with minimal return. Currently we only have 3 top 6 forwards and we are headed back to the lottery again. 

I don't disagree freester, but he hasn't burned through picks and prospect capital like Murray did. Not yet anyways.

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7 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

 a rush to complete a rebuild that should have been given time to work itself out

There was a significant amount of ownership and fan pressure to pull the team back from the tank, and, make no mistake, time by itself was not going to make the team better.

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8 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Looking back on the moves Tim Murray made, the piss poor drafting in some cases, and the unabated disaster of spending draft picks and prospects capital on failed chemistry players in a rush to complete a rebuild that should have been given time to work itself out, I believe it's fairly safe to say that former GM Tim Murray was not only a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres, but he is the leading candidate for worse Sabres GM of all time.

A strong case could be made for Bowman.

He took a team that had gotten 100+ points 4 of the previous 5 seasons & managed to get them to miss the playoffs 2 consecutive seasons (when 4 of 5 teams made the playoffs) & drove them to win the Turgeon race (which is what eventually got him fired that season).

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1 minute ago, Taro T said:

A strong case could be made for Bowman.

He took a team that had gotten 100+ points 4 of the previous 5 seasons & managed to get them to miss the playoffs 2 consecutive seasons (when 4 of 5 teams made the playoffs) & drove them to win the Turgeon race (which is what eventually got him fired that season).

Unfortanetely, I am old enough to remember this. But man Taro, looking at some of these picks and prospects Murray moved, combined with the utter failure of what he assembled in the wake of those moves, and yikes!.........

What brought me to start digging in to the info was the Compher signing. From there I just started reviewing a lot of the Murray era info, and holy *****, what a freaking disaster.

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Botterill still has a fair amount of work to do to convince me he's as good as, much less better than, Tim Murray 

Step one would be finishing with a better record than Tim's actually-trying teams for the first time.

I can be convinced that Jason is much better in the area that's cited as a main reason Tim was fired, the "people managing" and whatever. But Tim's problems on the hockey side get overblown IMO. He made more draft picks, and more higher draft picks, in his three drafts than Jason has in his three, he had a deeper forward roster with better players than what we've seen the last two years, and his teams won more hockey games as a result. The picks he traded were moved for a goalie capable of being a Vezina finalist, a player capable of winning a Selke and a Conn Smythe, and a player that can score 30 goals on a team that goes pretty deep into the playoffs every year. I don't put the tank on him as much as others may because it was well underway when he got here, and he saw it through to completion, "successfully."

If Tim was baseline average at keeping his fingers on the pulse of the people side of his organization, and Kyle doesn't almost die, and they move on from Dan for somebody else after that dreadful limp to the finish in 16-17, I think we're a much stronger hockey team right now than what we see. We got lucky with Dahlin, but that has nothing to do with the GM, other than indicating his team was so bad that it finished in last place. 

And I know Lehner probably wouldn't have worked out here given the nature of his issues, but the other two big pieces he added did not get "better" upon leaving, even if their basic counting stats did - Kane was the same player here as he is in SJ, and it was evident that ROR was a Selke caliber forward being cast in the most bizarre role I've ever seen by Phil. 

Tim deserved to be fired because of the whole package, but he wasn't a crippling GM IMO, and the young players I look forward to seeing the most are by and large his. 
Jack, Sam, Olofsson, ERod, Asplund, Borgen, Smith. Hopefully Jason's picks start to bear fruit in the coming seasons too. 

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1 minute ago, Scottysabres said:

Unfortanetely, I am old enough to remember this. But man Taro, looking at some of these picks and prospects Murray moved, combined with the utter failure of what he assembled in the wake of those moves, and yikes!.........

What brought me to start digging in to the info was the Compher signing. From there I just started reviewing a lot of the Murray era info, and holy *****, what a freaking disaster.

And Murray had his issues, absolutely.  But if Botterill was assembling a "heavy" team rather than a "quick" team, Murray's moves wouldn't look as bad. 

The Sabres under Bowman bounced back to 100+ his 1st year & then his constant churning of players left a reeeeaaaally bad squad by the time he was canned. 

Murray's squads (once he started trying too win) weren't anywhere near as awfully bad as that '86-'87 squad was. 

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I think the best hockey the Sabres have played since 2010-2011 is from when Jack came back from injury (late November 2016, I think) until the epic collapse that spring, which started sometime in February. 

FTR, I'm feeling good about one more big move this offseason, and then I expect Jason to pass Tim in my rankings. 

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11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And Murray had his issues, absolutely.  But if Botterill was assembling a "heavy" team rather than a "quick" team, Murray's moves wouldn't look as bad. 

Ding ding ding.  This is what it boils down too.  TM and JB have completely different philosophies on how to win in the nhl today.  I believe in the fast skilled model above the big physical one.  Maybe that’s why I’m more than ok with where botts has this team.  But again, sabres have to take that next step though or my thoughts will really sour.  I think a 2c trade is coming and sabres really going to surprise this year.

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2 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Ding ding ding.  This is what it boils down too.  TM and JB have completely different philosophies on how to win in the nhl today.  I believe in the fast skilled model above the big physical one.  Maybe that’s why I’m more than ok with where botts has this team.  But again, sabres have to take that next step though or my thoughts will really sour.  I think a 2c trade is coming and sabres really going to surprise this year.

Who you looking at? RNH? Or maybe a candidate not on the radar yet?

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56 minutes ago, freester said:

Botteril is just as bad if not worse. Murray acquired 4  top 6 forwards.  Botteril with his incompetence proceeded to dump 2 of them with minimal return. Currently we only have 3 top 6 forwards and we are headed back to the lottery again. 

Yeah but Tim murray was turning this team into the Oilers 2.0  with 4/6 and no team to support them.

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I'm more confident in Bots than I ever was in Murray.

Credit Murray for obtaining the likes of EKane and ROR.  He did trade away lot of capital but in hindsight it's not like those picks were used to choose superstars that could help us today.

But his development skills as a GM were a train wreck.  We held onto hopes too long on players that never truly developed.  Rochester was constantly a hot mess.  Whether that was the structure Murray created or the player skill levels, bottom line it wasn't happening.

Pound for pound it seems Bots prospects are developing better than Murray's.  I just like the structure Bots has in place.  And the fact that most of his trades (all but the ROR one) have benefited our team makes me confident in his vision.  

We have a brighter future with Bots.  I know many want to tie him to our 8 year no playoff drought and the one bad trade for ROR.  He sucks....he's horrible....bla...bla...frick'n bla.  But I only look at his time on the job and see the positives he's done and I have faith in him to take us where we need to go.  Bots vision is long term.  Some fans can't accept that, and that's OK with him.

 

 

Edited by dejeanerret
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23 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Who you looking at? RNH? Or maybe a candidate not on the radar yet?

I think it will end up a surprise team and therefore nobody in our radar.  

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25 minutes ago, Derrico said:

I think it will end up a surprise team and therefore nobody in our radar.  

Adam Henrique.

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1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

Step one would be finishing with a better record than Tim's actually-trying teams for the first time.

 

 

This pretty much says it all. 

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^^^

 

This is year 3 we are going into under Botterill's control.

The put up or shut up year if we are comparing these 2 over the same rebuild time frame. If Botterill's team wins more games than Murray's teams will that be satisfactory or will they need to be in the playoffs for him to not be as bad as Murray?

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3 hours ago, Derrico said:

I think it will end up a surprise team and therefore nobody in our radar.  

Taylor Hall.

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Take a look at the defensemen Murray added during his tenure. That list is the reason why he is unemployed.

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Part of why we liked him is because GMTM was ZFG. The trouble with being glib is it runs into problems with accountability and relationships. JBots is running a professional ship now. Did ROR request a trade? Did Pegula demand a trade? Why trade a #1B center for so much salary coming back...  all we can do is speculate. And that's good! JBot won't let the reasons slip, ever. GMTM would've inadvertently ZFG'ed that out already. And this means JBot is going to manage the owners, and the players, and the cap. He's got the players' backs, knowing that he's also going to cut them or not give them as much money as they want. But that is now known around the league. Lehner might have been miffed about the Sabres team (because we stunk, and he contributed to that) but he had good things to say about the organization helping him get right, even if that meant moving on. That's good for free agency and veterans. And Nylander has a legitimate gripe, and Bailey and Baptiste probably didn't get a fair shake with the new GM --- but they're trying to catch on with other teams and are saying "it's business." This is good for the long run. You can get a lot of things accomplished by keeping an orderly starship (and drafting well).

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I'd be really interested in seeing what all those picks we had accumulated turned into.  I know many of them were traded but just a list of who those players weer would be interesting to see just how many good players we ended up missing out on with them.  Granted we got some good players in return but they didn't really pan out the way we had hoped.

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5 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

Botterill still has a fair amount of work to do to convince me he's as good as, much less better than, Tim Murray 

Step one would be finishing with a better record than Tim's actually-trying teams for the first time.

I can be convinced that Jason is much better in the area that's cited as a main reason Tim was fired, the "people managing" and whatever. But Tim's problems on the hockey side get overblown IMO. He made more draft picks, and more higher draft picks, in his three drafts than Jason has in his three, he had a deeper forward roster with better players than what we've seen the last two years, and his teams won more hockey games as a result. The picks he traded were moved for a goalie capable of being a Vezina finalist, a player capable of winning a Selke and a Conn Smythe, and a player that can score 30 goals on a team that goes pretty deep into the playoffs every year. I don't put the tank on him as much as others may because it was well underway when he got here, and he saw it through to completion, "successfully."

If Tim was baseline average at keeping his fingers on the pulse of the people side of his organization, and Kyle doesn't almost die, and they move on from Dan for somebody else after that dreadful limp to the finish in 16-17, I think we're a much stronger hockey team right now than what we see. We got lucky with Dahlin, but that has nothing to do with the GM, other than indicating his team was so bad that it finished in last place. 

And I know Lehner probably wouldn't have worked out here given the nature of his issues, but the other two big pieces he added did not get "better" upon leaving, even if their basic counting stats did - Kane was the same player here as he is in SJ, and it was evident that ROR was a Selke caliber forward being cast in the most bizarre role I've ever seen by Phil. 

Tim deserved to be fired because of the whole package, but he wasn't a crippling GM IMO, and the young players I look forward to seeing the most are by and large his. 
Jack, Sam, Olofsson, ERod, Asplund, Borgen, Smith. Hopefully Jason's picks start to bear fruit in the coming seasons too. 

I ❤️This post so much.

Not only is it great when someone else is the “yeah, but” guy, but when they express what you are thinking so well.

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

And Murray had his issues, absolutely.  But if Botterill was assembling a "heavy" team rather than a "quick" team, Murray's moves wouldn't look as bad. 

If you squint hard enough and focus only on how the players looked at their peaks/projections you could see how Murray might have thought how 

Moulson Eichel Okposo

Kane O’Reilly Reinhart

Foligno Larsson Gionta

Deslauriers Girgensons Ennis

might have been a pretty effective dead puck era lineup

1 hour ago, shrader said:

Take a look at the defensemen Murray added during his tenure. That list is the reason why he is unemployed.

And the same for this:

Gorges Risto

McCabe Bogosian

Kulikov Franson

 

In retrospect Murray had a very obvious vision, but an underplayed element in his failure looks like it wasn’t the right vision at the right time, and his failures as an administrator exacerbated the situation.

Edited by dudacek
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I don't even know where to begin, but I’ll try.

1.  He destroyed the Amerks

2.  He missed on 2 of his 3 top 10 picks.  Eichel is a star, but Reinhart, while a good player is not the 2nd best player in his draft year and Nylander is a bust.  Jbot just dumped Nylander for a RHD once drafted 29th overall and we were universally excited about the trade. Sadly had he just drafted Sergachev instead of Nylander we’d have been much better off.

3.  To get Kane (and Bogo) he traded away Myers, Stafford, Armia (16th overall in 2011) Lemieux (31st overall) and a 1st (25th overall - Roslovic).  Both players, Kane and Bogo, had significant injury histories when acquired and Kane was on the IR when acquired.  We also took on the liability for about 40 mill in contracts. We are still paying Bogo and he has averaged about 50 games a year since acquired and will start this season on IR.  

Jbot traded Kane, who did play well for us but wasn’t a fit with Eichel (which is why he was acquired) and turned that 1st pick (plus Guhle - another failing TM prospect) into Montour who will play 1st line minutes this year with Dahlin.

Jbot replaced Kane with better fit in Skinner for a 2nd rd pick and former 3rd rd pick Pu.  

4. The Lehner trade - TM gave away another 1st and took a cap hit from Ott (in Langenbrunner) for an injured goalie with both injury and concussion issues. The deal was a significant over payment when made and to say I wasn’t surprised when the deal ultimately failed would be an understatement.  I’m glad he has gotten his life together and may finally reach his vast potential, but he was damaged goods when acquired.

5. TM’s last team cost 80 mill in real $ (with the cap around 73 mill) but finished with 78 pts , out of playoffs, with a top 8 pick (Nylander).  I believe  our payroll was the 4 or 5th highest in the league. Talk about no bang for the buck.

6.  Drafting outside the 1st rd.  It may turn out ok in the end.  Olofsson, Borgen, Asplund and maybe a couple of others will eventually make an impact on the Sabres.  Maybe.  Probably too little too late.

The biggest issue here was all the wasted capital.  For example; the 2 2nd rd picks he gave back to LA (plus NHL D McNabb) for a 4th line forward and Fasching.  

7. Okposo - looked like a very smart signing and I won’t criticize the signing other then on term.  6 years was much to much.  That said it looked like he found a strong RW to play with Jack or Ryan and the deal worked for a year.  Injury the culprit here. Now we are saddled with a limited player without the speed or skills needed to earn his huge paycheck.  

8. ROR - No question his acquisition of ROR was his crowning achievement and right now Jbot biggest failure. Problem, this team wasn’t even close to being ready to accelerate the rebuild that this deal and others represented.

Ultimately the ROR deal plus, Moulson, Okposo, Gorges, Franson, Fasching, Kulikov, Kane, and Bogo, decimated our prospect pipeline and the Amerks, placed us in cap hell and only gave us a mediocre team with no future.  Yeah!  Congrats! This rebuild needed a better manager, a better player and prospect evaluator, a better communicator and someone with an organizational vision to build a franchise for the long-term. TM was none of these things and IMHO is among the worst GMs in NHL history.  

 

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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