Botterill End Of Year Presser: Wednesday, 2pm EDT

[Randall Flagg]

No is forgetting that Jbot said SJ’s was the only serious offer at the deadline. I’m sorry but, as much as I like Jbot and believe he’ll eventually turn the Sabres around, the statement is much to self serving and avoids the discussion of the weeks leading up to the deadline when TSN and others were reporting that Jbot wasn’t willing to negotiate on his price.

Those same reporters are the ones that said there weren't realistic offers ever made at any point, that the waters were calm, and that literally teams were not seriously considering adding Kane yet. It is just as likely that JBot "not budging" is JBot saying "no, I'm not giving you Kane for a 3rd and a 4th liner." 

 

 

[Sabel79]

Most likely. But how sweet would that be?

 

From a cap management perspective, very.  A full no-move... cripes.  I still feel really bad for him and want him to get back to where he needs to be succeed.  Probably won't.

 

At least his broken brain explains a lot, as opposed to some other guys not pulling their weight. 

[Randall Flagg]

I just think he should have moved him earlier is all. There was months of reports saying he wasn't going to get the moon he asked for, but there must have been some middle ground between what he got and what he wanted, IMO

 

Most likely. But how sweet would that be?

The bold is the key. There's no evidence that suggests that, so it's only the opinion of you and two other people grumpy about the return.

 

And for the last time I'm ever going to talk about this, the second bold is coupled with months of reports that nobody was seriously considering adding Kane until the trade deadline, and that even then only one team was interested in giving up as much as the offer that we just blindly assume, for no good reason, could have been beaten earlier despite these reports

Edited April 11, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[WildCard]

The bold is the key. There's no evidence that suggests that, so it's only the opinion of you and two other people grumpy about the return.

 

And for the last time I'm ever going to talk about this, the second bold is coupled with months of reports that nobody was seriously considering adding Kane until the trade deadline, and that even then only one team was interested in giving up as much as the offer that we just blindly assume for no good reason that could have been beaten earlier despite these reports

No evidence to suggest what?

 

I posted every single report that had his asking price. I'm not just "blindly assuming for no good reason" that he was going to get his asking price. I just said that he wasn't. I also just said I believe he could have done better than he did

[PerreaultForever]

Oh man, the fonts are getting bigger, it's come to this. 

[That Aud Smell]

Danny O'Reagn will never amount to anything more than Paille

 

holy sh1t - i'd take Paille 2.0 on this team in a minute.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Those same reporters are the ones that said there weren't realistic offers ever made at any point, that the waters were calm, and that literally teams were not seriously considering adding Kane yet. It is just as likely that JBot "not budging" is JBot saying "no, I'm not giving you Kane for a 3rd and a 4th liner."

 

While anything is possible, similar players to Kane were traded for more then we received. That is a fact. That fact raises legit concerns about Jbot’s ability to maximize the return if he trades ROR and Risto. The question is moot at this point since neither is going anywhere.

 

Duda, As to why I think Bogo is being bought out. Bogo can’t stay healthy and there is reason to be believe based on his latest injury thta he’ll never be healthy. Jbot is looking for reliable players for his roster. Bogo doesn’t qualify.

[Thorny]

No, I’m not. My point is I think people are reading to much into Jbot’s decision to move out some of the core. Our D is already missing two top 4 D. Trade Risto and now you only have Scandella. I like Guhle but he isn’t putting up 40+ points next season. Same hold true for ROR, Casey isn’t ready for that role. He may not even be ready for the NHL next season. If Taylor Hall only brought back Adam Larssom, what does ROR garner?

It’s much more telling that he harped on the bad goaltending and said he needs help for Ullmark. If I’m Lehner I’m calling the real estate company and moving vans.

Regardless of whether he’s ready to supplant ROR, he’s ready for the NHL.

 

What evidence do you have that JBot is considering buying out Bogosian?

You’ve stated the case for why he should, but I haven’t seen any evidence the Sabres feel the same way.

Botterill wants Guhle and Nelson to be playing in the third pair. Maybe he thinks Bogo can ease their minutes.

Botterill wants more people to step up and be leaders. Bogo was named an assistant captain so they like his attitude.

Botterill doesn’t like the culture of losing. Bogo wasn’t around enough this year to contribute to that.

Botterill wants a more mobile defence. Bogo is a strong skater who prefers a Housley style active game.

Botterill wants depth and people fighting for jobs. Like him or not, Bogo can be a factor there.

Botterill wants people to do more to ensure their health. If he was talking about Bogo, why if he plans to cut him loose?

This best argument for buying out Bogo is cap space, but we’ve heard nothing about that being a Botterill concern.

I’m tired of Bogo too, but...

The bolded serves to nullify any potential benefit Bogosian could provide as listed in your thoughtful and detailed list. He won’t stay healthy, he won’t benefit the team in a substantial way, and I reiterate that it’s an absolute black mark on Botterill if Bogosian starts the year as D man #3.

[TrueBlueGED]

While anything is possible, similar players to Kane were traded for more then we received. That is a fact. That fact raises legit concerns about Jbot’s ability to maximize the return if he trades ROR and Risto. The question is moot at this point since neither is going anywhere.

 

Duda, As to why I think Bogo is being bought out. Bogo can’t stay healthy and there is reason to be believe based on his latest injury thta he’ll never be healthy. Jbot is looking for reliable players for his roster. Bogo doesn’t qualify.

 

All the more reason to not buy him out. There's a non-trivial chance he could get banished to LTIR island.

[Thorny]

All the more reason to not buy him out. There's a non-trivial chance he could get banished to LTIR island.

An island Bogosian has never found his way to, as far as I know.

[Randall Flagg]

No evidence to suggest what?

 

I posted every single report that had his asking price. I'm not just "blindly assuming for no good reason" that he was going to get his asking price. I just said that he wasn't. I also just said I believe he could have done better than he did

You're blindly assuming for no good reason, and have been since the trade, that there were better offers out there, or to be had, but Botterill held onto an unrealistic price and we lost out on better offers that people were willing to give up than the one we settled on. It's in your "IMO" qualification. There is no evidence that this was the case, and all of the evidence along the way actually suggests that it isn't what happened, but you and GA have both assumed it to be true and have gone on rants about Botterill with that sole conclusion. 

 

Buffalo GM Jason Botterill took heat for not getting a guaranteed first-rounder in exchange for Evander Kane. Word is one other team raised the possibility of a first-round pick for the winger three or four days prior to the deadline, but pulled the offer when something else came up. That left Botterill with San Jose’s Doug Wilson, who can grind with the best of them.

Botterill had a choice: take what he could or lose Kane for nothing. Look at the deals where opening-round selections were included. Tampa gave up two (potentially) for McDonagh and J.T. Miller. Both have term or team control. Vegas gave up one for Tomas Tatar, still with term. Chicago got one for Ryan Hartman, a restricted free agent. (There was a lot of interest in him.)

Pittsburgh gave up one for Brassard, with another year on his contract. Only two UFAs featured such a return — Rick Nash and Paul Stastny. Botterill tried to build a market, but Kane simply wasn’t as highly valued as Nash. As for Stastny, teams generally don’t ask players to waive full no-trade clauses without reason. Winnipeg gave St. Louis one.

12. There was some indication the Sabres could have gotten a better deal if they moved Kane last summer, but I remembered something Botterill said not long after taking the job. He discussed how you have to be careful to not make decisions based on what you heard, as opposed to what you see. One of Buffalo’s recent issues is spending so much on bad fits. Clearly, they made the choice to find out firsthand what they had. There wasn’t a market for Robin Lehner, either. If Botterill’s discovered anything, it’s that this is a much bigger rebuild than he thought.

 

"There is some indication that Buffalo could have gotten a better deal last summer"

Is the only line I could find in a year's worth of 30 thoughts that indicates potential evidence that Botterill had something early on, and it's still weak as ######, and does not refer to the time that you talk about, during the season when Kane was hot. 

 

While anything is possible, similar players to Kane were traded for more then we received. That is a fact. That fact raises legit concerns about Jbot’s ability to maximize the return if he trades ROR and Risto. The question is moot at this point since neither is going anywhere.

 

Duda, As to why I think Bogo is being bought out. Bogo can’t stay healthy and there is reason to be believe based on his latest injury thta he’ll never be healthy. Jbot is looking for reliable players for his roster. Bogo doesn’t qualify.

And it's also a fact that teams were wary of Kane's UFA status (that Tatar didn't have), didn't give the Sabres back dead money like Boston did for Nash, and were vocally scared of Kane's effect on their locker rooms. Like it or not, that matters when talking trade value. It's WHY people didn't want to talk about Kane early on, and why only one team made a formal offer for the guy in all that time. 

 

And I'd be scared if ROR and Risto had that baggage, but they don't, and we actually have leverage this time, as they aren't UFAs ready to walk, and he also orchestrated a trade of two plugs for our current best defenseman, so I'm not too worried myself. But it is important that he doesn't up those trades if he makes them.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[Sabres Fan in NS]

holy sh1t - i'd take Paille 2.0 on this team in a minute.

 

Somewhere, GoDD is smiling.

[WildCard]

 

You're blindly assuming for no good reason, and have been since the trade, that there were better offers out there, or to be had, but Botterill held onto an unrealistic price and we lost out on better offers that people were willing to give up than the one we settled on. It's in your "IMO" qualification. There is no evidence that this was the case, and all of the evidence along the way actually suggests that it isn't what happened, but you and GA have both assumed it to be true and have gone on rants about Botterill with that sole conclusion. 

 

Buffalo GM Jason Botterill took heat for not getting a guaranteed first-rounder in exchange for Evander Kane. Word is one other team raised the possibility of a first-round pick for the winger three or four days prior to the deadline, but pulled the offer when something else came up. That left Botterill with San Jose’s Doug Wilson, who can grind with the best of them.

Botterill had a choice: take what he could or lose Kane for nothing. Look at the deals where opening-round selections were included. Tampa gave up two (potentially) for McDonagh and J.T. Miller. Both have term or team control. Vegas gave up one for Tomas Tatar, still with term. Chicago got one for Ryan Hartman, a restricted free agent. (There was a lot of interest in him.)

Pittsburgh gave up one for Brassard, with another year on his contract. Only two UFAs featured such a return — Rick Nash and Paul Stastny. Botterill tried to build a market, but Kane simply wasn’t as highly valued as Nash. As for Stastny, teams generally don’t ask players to waive full no-trade clauses without reason. Winnipeg gave St. Louis one.

12. There was some indication the Sabres could have gotten a better deal if they moved Kane last summer, but I remembered something Botterill said not long after taking the job. He discussed how you have to be careful to not make decisions based on what you heard, as opposed to what you see. One of Buffalo’s recent issues is spending so much on bad fits. Clearly, they made the choice to find out firsthand what they had. There wasn’t a market for Robin Lehner, either. If Botterill’s discovered anything, it’s that this is a much bigger rebuild than he thought.

 

"There is some indication that Buffalo could have gotten a better deal last summer"

Is the only line I could find in a year's worth of 30 thoughts that indicates potential evidence that Botterill had something early on, and it's still weak as ######, and does not refer to the time that you talk about, during the season when Kane was hot. 

First off, calm your

 

Second of all, I really don't understand why this is such a massive leap of thought. Botterill asked for, according to everyone, far too much. Botterill continued this asking price right until the deadline. Why didn't he bring down the asking price if everyone knew it was too much, instead of waiting too long and being forced to sell at a lower price; everyone knew Kane was moving and Botterill had to do it, waiting until the last minute doesn't seem like a great idea when you're playing poker with your cards facing up.

 

You're infuriated that we don't have direct evidence that some other GM made a better offer to ours beforehand? How often do you ever hear that report when it is true? Botterill just going to tell us he could have gotten one earlier? Or insiders are going to say we should have done better?

 

That's right, they do say we should have done better

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/22594344/nhl-trade-deadline-grading-all-31-teams-moves-non-moves

 

 

C-. Jason Botterill had to move Kane, so he did. But the rookie GM said he only had one legitimate offer for arguably the best winger on the rental market. We wonder if Kane would’ve fetched a better haul if he was traded in the summer or the fall or…. Point is, did Botterill wait too long?

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-power-rankings-standings-grading-all-gms-trade-deadline/

 

And there's about 40 more articles I could pull for that. 

[TrueBlueGED]

Somewhere, GoDD is smiling.

 

Mention Taylor Pyatt and Mike Weber and you might see Drane's excitement from outer space.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Guys, guys, it's what day 3, or 4, of a very long off-season.

 

Please just kiss and make up already.  I hate when lovers fight.

[dudacek]

While anything is possible, similar players to Kane were traded for more then we received. That is a fact. That fact raises legit concerns about Jbot’s ability to maximize the return if he trades ROR and Risto. The question is moot at this point since neither is going anywhere.

Duda, As to why I think Bogo is being bought out. Bogo can’t stay healthy and there is reason to be believe based on his latest injury thta he’ll never be healthy. Jbot is looking for reliable players for his roster. Bogo doesn’t qualify.

 

Only similar player who netted more than Kane was Nash, and it wasn’t considerably more when you factor in the contract dump.

The guys who did get more were cost-controlled. Botterill fell victim to a league-wide trend of GMs (correctly) deciding giving up significant assets for UFAs is seldom a smart move.

 

As to Bogo, it was McDermott who said he wanted players to be available, not Botterill. At least I’ve never heard that.

 

The bolded serves to nullify any potential benefit Bogosian could provide as listed in your thoughtful and detailed list. He won’t stay healthy, he won’t benefit the team in a substantial way, and I reiterate that it’s an absolute black mark on Botterill if Bogosian starts the year as D man #3.

I agree health questions make him a bad #3. We were talking about the likelihood of Botterill buying Bogosian out. Edited April 11, 2018 by dudacek

[darksabre]

holy sh1t - i'd take Paille 2.0 on this team in a minute.

I loved Paille and am still annoyed we got rid of him. 

[Randall Flagg]

First off, calm your ######

 

Second of all, I really don't understand why this is such a massive leap of thought. Botterill asked for, according to everyone, far too much. Botterill continued this asking price right until the deadline. Why didn't he bring down the asking price if everyone knew it was too much, instead of waiting too long and being forced to sell at a lower price; everyone knew Kane was moving and Botterill had to do it, waiting until the last minute doesn't seem like a great idea when you're playing poker with your cards facing up.

 

You're infuriated that we don't have direct evidence that some other GM made a better offer to ours beforehand? How often do you ever hear that report when it is true? Botterill just going to tell us he could have gotten one earlier? Or insiders are going to say we should have done better?

 

That's right, they do say we should have done better

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/22594344/nhl-trade-deadline-grading-all-31-teams-moves-non-moves

 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-power-rankings-standings-grading-all-gms-trade-deadline/

 

And there's about 40 more articles I could pull for that. 

Calm down? Seriously, read what I said more slowly, with a monotone voice in your head. I'm just recollecting how this has all played out with no emotion whatsoever. 

 

The best I see in there is "we wonder". Where is the evidence that Botterill had a price so high that literally no GM had the gumption to call him and try a counter offer? Botterill not backing off of some absurd high price is not some sign that no other team was willing to make an actual offer. So the only conclusion I can reasonably draw, and one that is supported by people who knew the market, is that nobody cared that much about adding Evander until late. 

 

Seriously, Botterill's high asking price, which ESPN "wonders" about, in the real world, does not totally shut down and kill any chance to get reasonable value from Kane. The starting offers on ROR were absurdly high, same for literally anyone that ever gets traded. Negotiations happen and then he gets talked down. There were no talks on Kane, because like Jason and everyone says, nobody cared enough to start engaging in negotiation, not because scary bad unreasonable Botterill wanted too much, but because nobody had plans to add Kane until the deadline if at all, and even then gets supported by the fact that only one team even called Jason and said "hey I'll give you this".

[Thorny]

Only similar player who netted more than Kane was Nash, and it wasn’t considerably more when you factor in the contract dump.

The guys who did get more were cost-controlled. Botterill fell victim to a league-wide trend of GMs (correctly) deciding giving up significant assets for UFAs is seldom a smart move.

As to Bogo, it was McDermott who said he wanted players to be available, not Botterill. At least I’ve never heard that.I agree health questions make him a bad #3. We were talking about the likelihood of Botterill buying Bogosian out.

I know, it was a tangent.

[WildCard]

Calm down? Seriously, read what I said more slowly, with a monotone voice in your head. I'm just recollecting how this has all played out with no emotion whatsoever. 

 

The best I see in there is "we wonder". Where is the evidence that Botterill had a price so high that literally no GM had the gumption to call him and try a counter offer? Botterill not backing off of some absurd high price is not some sign that no other team was willing to make an actual offer. So the only conclusion I can reasonably draw, and one that is supported by people who knew the market, is that nobody cared that much about adding Evander until late. 

 

Seriously, Botterill's high asking price, which ESPN "wonders" about, in the real world, does not totally shut down and kill any chance to get reasonable value from Kane. The starting offers on ROR were absurdly high, same for literally anyone that ever gets traded. Negotiations happen and then he gets talked down. There were no talks on Kane, because like Jason and everyone says, nobody cared enough to start engaging in negotiation, not because scary bad unreasonable Botterill wanted too much, but because nobody had plans to add Kane until the deadline if at all, and even then gets supported by the fact that only one team even called Jason and said "hey I'll give you this".

Mean you may not see it but throwing things in bold underline, saying it's the last time you're gonna make this point as if none of us understand it, making things giant in caps, saying GA and I have some stupid crusade with no evidence. We have a different opinion we're making from inferences, we're not too dense to understand that there's no tangible evidence of somebody saying 'We gave him offer A, but he wanted offer B' 

 

Right, so why did we get to so low then. He either sucks at negotiating, or waited too long

 

There were talks on Kane. Why would we know all of the asking prices, all of the 'that's too high' to those asking prices, if there were no talks for Kane? You really think Nobody once called Botterill during the season for Kane, or before that? Pretty sure they called at the draft. He's been the #1 FA for nearly a year at that point, and plenty of other teams needed a winger, as proven at the deadline. Teams called and asked, and didn't want any part of negotiations cause the price was so high. That's bad bartering 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jokertecken

[LGR4GM]

Yup vacation time.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

You guys need to lighten up.  OK.

[Weave]

Yup vacation time.

 

Dooo eeeeet.

[Eleven]

I'm just getting to listen to it / watch it now.  I'm assuming that in the three pages above, numerous conclusions were drawn, speculations made, accusations laid, etc.

Oooh, first criticism.  He should have said "it's up to Phil and me," not "it's up to Phil and I" in the first minute or so.  This is going to go badly.

Also, that tie...

Yeah, I'm not listening to this whole thing right now.  The playoffs start in about 25 mins and I'd rather have something to listen to at work tomorrow.

[Brawndo]

Anyone else get the impression that the Asst Coaches will not be returning?

Edited April 12, 2018 by Brawndo