erickompositör72 Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) Then, like, what's even the point of a coach? Are you posing this question to me, or just asking rhetorically? All I'm saying is that we can't necessary say that because Eichel is improving, Housley is an effective coach, or his system works. Edited February 22, 2018 by erickompositör72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Are you posing this question to me, or just asking rhetorically? All I'm saying is that we can't necessary say that because Eichel is improving, Housley is an effective coach, or his system works. Eichel avg'd 0.93 points per game under Bylsma, and 0.96 under Housley. So yeah... we can all bow down to Housley for finally unleashing Jack's potential. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Eichel avg'd 0.93 points per game under Bylsma, and 0.96 under Housley. So yeah... we can all bow down to Housley for finally unleashing Jack's potential. :rolleyes: How’re the 5v5 stats comparatively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 How’re the 5v5 stats comparatively? How are the power play stats comparatively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerreaultForever Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Is it just me or is one of the continual problems that there are too many individuals on this team and not enough team players? I've glanced at a number of other team's games this year and we are among the absolute worst at passing the puck and maintaining puck possession and it's a puck possession league now. I think Housley's system really only works well with the D being the strength of the team, and we are far from that. It has a long way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 It’s not just you, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Is it just me or is one of the continual problems that there are too many individuals on this team and not enough team players? I've glanced at a number of other team's games this year and we are among the absolute worst at passing the puck and maintaining puck possession and it's a puck possession league now. I think Housley's system really only works well with the D being the strength of the team, and we are far from that. It has a long way to go. I've nowhere to find the stats.. but I'd be real curious to see what the possession stats for the Sabres look like over the course of the season. If there's been an improvement. It seems like there has been one for the most part even though there are still stretches of time where they don't have the puck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 I've nowhere to find the stats.. but I'd be real curious to see what the possession stats for the Sabres look like over the course of the season. If there's been an improvement. It seems like there has been one for the most part even though there are still stretches of time where they don't have the puck. if they improved at any point, it wasn't enough or for long enough to get them out of the basement of the league's basic possession stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) I've nowhere to find the stats.. but I'd be real curious to see what the possession stats for the Sabres look like over the course of the season. If there's been an improvement. It seems like there has been one for the most part even though there are still stretches of time where they don't have the puck. if they improved at any point, it wasn't enough or for long enough to get them out of the basement of the league's basic possession stats. It's both these IMHO. They where so bad at the beginning of the year the only way they would get out of the cellar and flirt with a 20-25th ranking in the league is for them to be the best in the league for the second half of the season. Watching MSG and going by their possession stats they have definitely become better. This is all off of my memory, but, in the beginning of the year it was not unusual to be doubled up on for possession time. Now they are very rarely out matched like that and go on a few game run of being the possession leader of the game. Love to see that stat in 7 game blocks. Edited February 23, 2018 by skogslopp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) How’re the 5v5 stats comparatively? The 5v5 stats and possession numbers of Eichel, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Okposo, and Kane are the best they've ever been as Sabres players. In Eichel's case it's not a negligible amount either. He was going to finish the year a positive possession player, I was watching it steadily climb and was interested to see how long it would take, but then he got hurt. This year, however, we have two lines of Nolan-level play instead of one last season being buffered by Foligno/Larsson Gionta who combined for around 70 points (even though Larsson missed most of the year) whereas this year we'll be lucky to get that amount from the entire bottom six, and their ###### play has evened out our 5v5 possession stats to dead even with last season, CF% was actually down to the hundredth place even before yesterday's game. FWIW. How are the power play stats comparatively? Shouldn't this post be in the "fire the PP coach and bring back Bob Woods" thread? Or does Phil run the PP? Edited February 23, 2018 by Randall Flagg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 So it would seem that as the team embraced and played the Housley style they began to drive more possession. The players who did not improve are in the group we all know have to get booted as they bring no secondary scoring or other benefits to the team. The question isn't are they bad.. the question is.. are the parts that need to stick around improving and overall is the team improving... if that's the case then we have progress. I don't worry if Nolan and Larsson are killing the team today. I only care if they are still here next year. What about the defense? Has it improved? (BTW: If you tell me what I should be looking at.. I will.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Why isn't the term shot attempt ratio or something like that instead of possession? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't a good possession stat, just a proxy for possession (Corsi). (And shouldn't it be control, not possession?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Why isn't the term shot attempt ratio or something like that instead of possession? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't a good possession stat, just a proxy for possession (Corsi). (And shouldn't it be control, not possession?) You're right that Corsi and Fenwick are proxies. Eventually, or maybe even already, they will have a means of measuring actual time of possession. There's an app for smart phones that SDS put me onto many moons ago. We used it for a month or two for one of my kid's soccer teams. It was simple, if also somewhat labor intensive to use. You just clicked one side of the screen or the other every time one team touched the ball. Or something like that. There were also rules for how to count balls out of bounds, etc. It was just U14 soccer (at a pretty decent level), but the app gave very clear views on how the team was doing with regard to possession, passing, etc. I'm not sure why a similar protocol can't be applied to ice hockey. I know it would be tricky because the game is so fast and fluid, but I think it could be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Why isn't the term shot attempt ratio or something like that instead of possession? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't a good possession stat, just a proxy for possession (Corsi). (And shouldn't it be control, not possession?) As far as I know you're right, I'm really not a fan of Corsi by itself but its predictive power is still better than anything else you can use with stats, I think, except for maybe some stats I don't really understand like expected goals for/against? But at that point I'm straying too far from the hockey to really be interested in talking more about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Zone time to my mind might be better than Corsi. I'm not sure why control/possession time can't be charted and would be surprised if it's not. As always, my concern boils down to the tail wagging the dog ("coaching to Corsi" i.e. "Just shoot the puck!" or even players "playing to Corsi" for evaluation purposes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Zone time to my mind might be better than Corsi. I'm not sure why control/possession time can't be charted and would be surprised if it's not. As always, my concern boils down to the tail wagging the dog ("coaching to Corsi" i.e. "Just shoot the puck!" or even players "playing to Corsi" for evaluation purposes). Right.... the idea is to score more goals than the other team, not posses the puck for a longer time period. Last season playoffs for example... If you had picked the teams with the better Corsi%, you would've lost just about all of the first round matchups. Corsi can tell you if you suck, but you already know that... when comparing good teams, it's not a reliable metric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Right.... the idea is to score more goals than the other team, not posses the puck for a longer time period. Last season playoffs for example... If you had picked the teams with the better Corsi%, you would've lost just about all of the first round matchups. Corsi can tell you if you suck, but you already know that... when comparing good teams, it's not a reliable metric. Good stuff - especially this. I know it's not a good comparison, but I sometimes call to mind some lessons you can learn from watching top flight soccer from England, Europe (they're distinguished for the purposes of footy in a way I don't fully understand). Anyway -- there are games between really good clubs when one team will out-possess the other team like a mother. But sorta by design. And then the team that is conceding possession will plan to counter-attack in waves when opportunities are presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 You're right that Corsi and Fenwick are proxies. Eventually, or maybe even already, they will have a means of measuring actual time of possession. There's an app for smart phones that SDS put me onto many moons ago. We used it for a month or two for one of my kid's soccer teams. It was simple, if also somewhat labor intensive to use. You just clicked one side of the screen or the other every time one team touched the ball. Or something like that. There were also rules for how to count balls out of bounds, etc. It was just U14 soccer (at a pretty decent level), but the app gave very clear views on how the team was doing with regard to possession, passing, etc. I'm not sure why a similar protocol can't be applied to ice hockey. I know it would be tricky because the game is so fast and fluid, but I think it could be done. It absolutely can be done. Pro teams have been using them for their own team since at least the '04 lockout. Thing is, aren't most of the stat/analytics sites using volunteer labor to get their raw data? If so, there's a reason we can't find that data. The people compiling the data don't have the tools available to them. Plus, there is the question of how events are defined from reviewer to reviewer. (If the analytics sites aren't using volunteers, well, then, nevermind.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 It absolutely can be done. Pro teams have been using them for their own team since at least the '04 lockout. Thing is, aren't most of the stat/analytics sites using volunteer labor to get their raw data? If so, there's a reason we can't find that data. The people compiling the data don't have the tools available to them. Plus, there is the question of how events are defined from reviewer to reviewer. (If the analytics sites aren't using volunteers, well, then, nevermind.) I think those sites are indeed using volunteers. The data has to be viewed suspiciously. Good stuff - especially this. I know it's not a good comparison, but I sometimes call to mind some lessons you can learn from watching top flight soccer from England, Europe (they're distinguished for the purposes of footy in a way I don't fully understand). Anyway -- there are games between really good clubs when one team will out-possess the other team like a mother. But sorta by design. And then the team that is conceding possession will plan to counter-attack in waves when opportunities are presented. See the Sabres under Dom. Rope a Dope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 See the Sabres under Dom. Rope a Dope. Hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 The Sabres have a disfunctional dressing room . The new coach and team do not have a hope in hell until it’s cleaned up. That is on the general manager. Clearly his task is to rid team of underperforming players and somehow do it in a fashion he is not giving them away for nothing. Being at all fair that is a most difficult task Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 Right.... the idea is to score more goals than the other team, not posses the puck for a longer time period. Last season playoffs for example... If you had picked the teams with the better Corsi%, you would've lost just about all of the first round matchups. Corsi can tell you if you suck, but you already know that... when comparing good teams, it's not a reliable metric. Interesting. I wonder what the long-term Corsi/Fenwick #s are for playoff matchups. The Sabres have a disfunctional dressing room . The new coach and team do not have a hope in hell until it’s cleaned up. That is on the general manager. Clearly his task is to rid team of underperforming players and somehow do it in a fashion he is not giving them away for nothing. Being at all fair that is a most difficult task Also interesting IMHO that a long-time Leafs fan (and Toronto resident? is that right millbank?) has this impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 In reading about the chat with Falks parents, is anyone here worried that Phil may actually be a deterrent to the locker room "coming together" what would you think If you see the "stars and leaders" not pulling their weight and having no reprocussions, Babcock had no problem dropping Kadri for poor play. I'll be honest, I'm not sold on Phil, he does need some time, so I'm not advocating replacement.... Yet, but if we're not at a near 90pt pace halfway through next season, then I feel that we know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 In reading about the chat with Falks parents, is anyone here worried that Phil may actually be a deterrent to the locker room "coming together" what would you think If you see the "stars and leaders" not pulling their weight and having no reprocussions, Babcock had no problem dropping Kadri for poor play. I'll be honest, I'm not sold on Phil, he does need some time, so I'm not advocating replacement.... Yet, but if we're not at a near 90pt pace halfway through next season, then I feel that we know If we're not better on paper at the start of the 2018-19 season than today, I don't think we'll really know. Get Phil some more talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 If we're not better on paper at the start of the 2018-19 season than today, I don't think we'll really know. Get Phil some more talent. I'm operating under the assumption that Jbot will hold up his end of the bargain, here's to hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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