Trading Eichel

[SwampD]

My posts deleted, warnings issued for nothing, duly noted. Enjoy your "space".

 

I'm sure it was nothing. Sorry I missed it.

[dudacek]

Waitaminit!

Pokey is Tim Murray?

[PASabreFan]

Waitaminit!

Pokey is Tim Murray?

He did mention horseshoes!

[nfreeman]

T'was inevitable.

 

He's not untouchable in my book.

 

I think we are at a crossroads with Jack.  It's not too late to save him, but this acceptance of losing for a better shot down the road is poisonous.  And Jack is clearly poisoned here.  I think he is recoverable, but I think the sand is draining out fairly quickly.  This organization needs to be in win now mode NOW, before Jack and Sam become lost causes only recoverable by a change in scenery.

 

No.  Evander is the only reason to watch now.  And if we wait a couple of years the only thing that happens is Jack becomes more accustomed to losing.

 

Yes indeed.

 

 

There's no chance. No need for discussion.

 

Correct.

[PASabreFan]

It is an interesting thing to ponder. Does Botterill in any sense think of Eichel as a "Murray guy"? Along with Bogosian, Kane, Lehner, O'Reilly and whoever. I mean, you inherit a Crosby or a McDavid or even a P. Kane or an Ovechkin and you want to take ownership of them. They are yours. What we have in Eichel is still a very open question. He's not in that grouping I just mentioned, barring a major leap in his play. So maybe JB would consider a trade that sets up his team for greater success than if an elite but not generational player sticks around and isn't good enough to carry a team the way a 10-million-dollar player necessarily has to (think how Dom had to carry the Sabres).

Edited November 20, 2017 by PASabreFan

[Doohickie]

I mostly hope Eichel pulls an Yzerman and decides to learn defence...

 

I think his maturity is his biggest problem. He isn't ready to have a franchise on his shoulders. Its why I never understood the hype about giving him the C - the guy frequently decides to not show up.

 

$10 million for a one dimensional 70 point forward... we need him to be more than that. If there are doubts he can be, we should trade him ASAP (before the rest of the league realises)

 

I was going to bring Yzerman into it too.  Bear in mind that he was drafted in 1983, had early injury issues and was almost traded to Ottawa because he and Scotty Bowman didn't get along.  He didn't get the Wings to a Cup final until his 12th season, didn't win one until his 14th, but by then was a cornerstone of their dynasty.

 

I certainly don't want to wait that long, and Jack doesn't either.  But it's way to early to give up on him.  Neither is it ludicrous to talk about potential trade returns.

I guess I'm just saying that in 1987 Wings fans were pretty disillusioned with the team, but if you asked the same fans in 1997 if they were happy with how things turned out, every single one would say yes.

[LTS]

TIIIIIIIIIINNNNNN ROOF.  Rusted.

 

Beauty!

 

It is an interesting thing to ponder. Does Botterill in any sense think of Eichel as a "Murray guy"? Along with Bogosian, Kane, Lehner, O'Reilly and whoever. I mean, you inherit a Crosby or a McDavid or even a P. Kane or an Ovechkin and you want to take ownership of them. They are yours. What we have in Eichel is still a very open question. He's not in that grouping I just mentioned, barring a major leap in his play. So maybe JB would consider a trade that sets up his team for greater success than if an elite but not generational player sticks around and isn't good enough to carry a team the way a 10-million-dollar player necessarily has to (think how Dom had to carry the Sabres).

 

I think it's fair to say he does not.  If he had any misgivings about Eichel I doubt he signs him to a contract.  Unless of course you believe that Botterill was forced to sign him.  Given the sheer ignorance of the Bills coach yesterday I have to wonder if there is a higher level input that is forcing the hand.

 

That decision alone has made me seriously question what is wrong with these teams.  The lack of leadership perhaps starts at the top?

 

But, beyond that I want to focus on Eichel.  I think the answer to the question is whether Jack is ever going to want to play as a teammate and accept his coach or if he is going to keep up the shenanigans until he gets his way.  Right now it appears that when he wants to demonstrate a point on the ice he can do it.  He'll do just enough to show he's talented and then slack away because the situation isn't right for him.

 

The problem is deciding why it's happening isn't that easy.  It could be Jack.  It could be that they are upping the value of tradeable assets in order to improve the team for next year when they want to be really serious about winning.  There are a lot of unknowns and head scratching decisions that are happening.  You can go one of two routes, believe there are incompetent people leading things or believe that there is a plan behind the scenes.  I can't decide which but I may get tired of trying to figure it out and just ignore the team for awhile.

 

Eichel could easily be traded.  I have no doubt about that.  The current CBA is coming up for negotiation and I am sure a few owners might be thinking how they can drop large contracts by forcing the NHLPA hand just like last time.  Until then it might be spend away and do whatever.

[apuszczalowski]

I said it before, he will probably end up being more into the 'very good but not elite' category and not worth tanking seasons for. And all i heard back was that it was ridiculous and that he was elite and at the McDavid/Matthews level because of his points last season after the injury.

 

Also never believed Sam was going to be anything great either and he would end up being more in the 'good but not great' category and not be what you need from a #2 overall pick.

 

But the tank was well worth it, they would never have been able to get to this level without it! Guhle and Pu and others are on their way......

[Jacque Richard]

I hope the Sabres trade Eichel so I can cheer for him on a good team.

like Darby, bradham, Woods, watkins, etc....

[qwksndmonster]

Acceptance of losing?

 

How about a coach who accepts losing possession? Everything "rotten" about this team flows from Bylsma. He set our rebuild back 2 years.

 

It'll take the team this season to learn the conditioning required to play real hockey in the NHL. Unfortunately their confidence is shot right now and things look even worse.

[Jacque Richard]

Blame Nolan and rolston too

[GASabresIUFAN]

How about instead of trade Jack, how about "free" Jack.  Housley needs to make jack the focus of that 1st line.  The only way to accomplish that is to move Kane off that line.  Let Reinhart feed jack.  Last season, Kane spent significant time not playing with jack, and frankly our offense and team were the better for it. 

 

Fyi: Last season Jack only set up 6 of Kane's goals.  Sam and ROR also set up 4 each.     

[apuszczalowski]

Blame Nolan and rolston too

Nolan wouldn't have let them out in the performance and effort they have been recently. He actually had pride and actually had them playing better then they should Have, it's why they dumped him for Rolston

[Kr632]

Nolan wouldn't have let them out in the performance and effort they have been recently. He actually had pride and actually had them playing better then they should Have, it's why they dumped him for Rolston

wasn't Rolston dumped for nolan?

[7+6=13]

How about instead of trade Jack, how about "free" Jack.  Housley needs to make jack the focus of that 1st line.  The only way to accomplish that is to move Kane off that line.  Let Reinhart feed jack.  Last season, Kane spent significant time not playing with jack, and frankly our offense and team were the better for it. 

 

Fyi: Last season Jack only set up 6 of Kane's goals.  Sam and ROR also set up 4 each.     

 

Last nights game is an indication that what you suggest isn't the right thing to do.  Kane was rendered ineffective with O'Reilly and Sam.  As soon as he got back with Jack everything clicked.  Kane and Eichel should be on the same line from here on and I also think Kane needs to be signed to keep them together.  It's working.

[MattPie]

Last nights game is an indication that what you suggest isn't the right thing to do.  Kane was rendered ineffective with O'Reilly and Sam.  As soon as he got back with Jack everything clicked.  Kane and Eichel should be on the same line from here on and I also think Kane needs to be signed to keep them together.  It's working.

 

Eichel has 5 goals in 21 games. It's not working.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Eichel has 5 goals in 21 games. It's not working.

 

I don't think that is all Kane's fault.  And how many assists does Eich have on Kane goals?

[MattPie]

I don't think that is all Kane's fault.  And how many assists does Eich have on Kane goals?

 

I don't think it's Kane's "fault", but Kane with Eichel means Eichel shoots less, and with his shot, that's not a good thing for the team. Eichel's shooting is down 10% from his career average this year.

[bob_sauve28]

Can we get Duncan Keith for him? 

[Doohickie]

Here's my theory.  Which is mine.  Which is to say, I came up with it.  Kind of.  Except for the parts I got elsewhere.

 

Anyway, to wit:  Jack got his 8 x $10M because they wanted to lock him up early to be fair to him.  The management knew that a rough year was coming.  They want to develop Jack, and Sam, and Risto, and Girgs, and anyone else who didn't get the full development treatment on the farm.  As such, a down year (especially for those guys) was kind of inevitable. 

 

I think part of this involves the players learning how to pace themselves during the game so they have energy at the end, but also have an acceptably high level earlier in the game.  The first ten minutes last night they had a lot of jump, but they then they slowed down.  But then at the end they picked it up again.  They need to learn how to manage that when they're playing against NHL level competition.

 

I'm starting to look at this year as an extended, remedial NHL training camp for the Sabres.  It's not simply Housley instilling his system on the team, it's about getting some of the improperly developed players back to where they should be in terms of development.  This involves players, especially Jack and Sam, playing different roles on the team, learning how to pace themselves, learning how to play responsible defense, learning how to make the players around them better.

 

They excelled at that at the lower levels but instead of transitioning into the NHL as maybe 3rd line guys on a functional team, they were thrust into top line positions on a crappy team and asked to be their usually exceptional selves.  Exceptional at the junior, college, or AHL level does not instantly translate to NHL greatness.  Bylsma tried to ride them as the studs we pictured them to be, but didn't spend enough time developing their weak areas.

 

Enter JBot, who develops teams from the AHL up, and who instructs Housely to correct those deficiencies in the young stars already on the team.  They tell Eichel what he's in for, tell him he's probably in for an off year, and offer him a fair deal to lock him up, expecting that off year.  "It's all good, Jack.  You don't have to prove to us you're worth it, here you go, here's your contract.  But we're still a year or two off from being competitive, so your job this year isn't to score goals and win games, it's to learn how to play in the NHL the right way." 

 

So he passes because he's been told to pass.  He does a lot of other things that make him look like he's lollygagging, but it's in the interest of learning, of training, of playing the game the way he will need to play it when the Sabres are competitive again.  He's the cornerstone, he's not going anywhere.  He's very good right now, but to lead this team to the promised land, he's gonna have to be great, and he's going to need the help of the rest of the team, a handful of whom are also on a remedial de-Bylsmafication development plan.

 

JACK EICHEL WILL BE FINE.

SAMSON REINHART WILL BE FINE.

ZEMGUS GIRGENSONS WILL BE FINE.

RASMUS RISTOLAINEN WILL BE FINE.

THE BUFFALO SABRES WILL BE GREAT.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Doohickie

[Sabel79]

Other than the continued (by a large number of people) inexplicable optimism re: Zemgus, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

[Doohickie]

I have full faith and confidence in Gus.  He may not be top 6 material, but every team needs a grind line (like McCarty-Draper-Maltby in the early Wings Dynasty years).  I think he is destined for that role.

[inkman]

Other than the continued (by a large number of people) inexplicable optimism re: Zemgus, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

I don't think the sentiment is still there buuuuuutttt his only shining moment the last 3 seasons has been on Eichel's wing. It actually looks good and worked. So obviously the next thing to do was never play them together again.

I have full faith and confidence in Gus. He may not be top 6 material, but every team needs a grind line (like McCarty-Draper-Maltby in the early Wings Dynasty years). I think he is destined for that role.

Way to immediately and preemptively negate my point :(

[Doohickie]

You may be right, Ink.  I like him with Jack.  I just think that eventually he will slip down the depth chart when new talent from the A comes in.  Based on existing roster, I think Gus and Kane should toggle between Jack's wing and the third line.  Right now Kane is scoring but assuming he cools off, a 3rd line assignment puts his speed and physical game to good use and takes the scoring pressure off him somewhat.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Doohickie

[Thorny]

It is an interesting thing to ponder. Does Botterill in any sense think of Eichel as a "Murray guy"? Along with Bogosian, Kane, Lehner, O'Reilly and whoever. I mean, you inherit a Crosby or a McDavid or even a P. Kane or an Ovechkin and you want to take ownership of them. They are yours. What we have in Eichel is still a very open question. He's not in that grouping I just mentioned, barring a major leap in his play. So maybe JB would consider a trade that sets up his team for greater success than if an elite but not generational player sticks around and isn't good enough to carry a team the way a 10-million-dollar player necessarily has to (think how Dom had to carry the Sabres).

  

 

The contract offer from Botterill is becoming a head-scratcher to me.

 

I was going to bring Yzerman into it too.  Bear in mind that he was drafted in 1983, had early injury issues and was almost traded to Ottawa because he and Scotty Bowman didn't get along.  He didn't get the Wings to a Cup final until his 12th season, didn't win one until his 14th, but by then was a cornerstone of their dynasty.

 

I certainly don't want to wait that long, and Jack doesn't either.  But it's way to early to give up on him.  Neither is it ludicrous to talk about potential trade returns.I guess I'm just saying that in 1987 Wings fans were pretty disillusioned with the team, but if you asked the same fans in 1997 if they were happy with how things turned out, every single one would say yes.

The Yzerman comparison is a favourable one that I too indeed find myself gravitating towards sometimes.

 

Then I remember that Yzerman is one of the greatest players to ever play the game. To think Jack is somehow on that kind of trajectory is....I then feel embarrassed for my internal comparison of the two.